ADHD, Dopamine, and Porn Addiction: How to Finally Work With Your Brain Instead of Against It

Do you ever feel like you have a deep desire to build a better life, but your brain just will not cooperate?

You want to be focused. You want to be present. You want to be disciplined. You want to be the kind of man who follows through, leads well, stays sober, connects with his wife, shows up for his kids, and lives with purpose before God. But then you sit down to work and your mind scatters. You try to pray and your thoughts jump everywhere. You promise yourself you will not go back to porn, and then in a moment of stress, boredom, loneliness, or mental chaos, there you are again.

For many men, this is not just a willpower problem. It is not simply a lust problem. It is often a brain, body, dopamine, and lifestyle problem.

In my conversation with peak performance coach Ania Hulsman, we talked about the connection between ADHD, dopamine, technology, motivation, and pornography addiction. And I think this is a conversation many men desperately need, because when you do not understand your brain, you end up hating yourself for patterns that actually need wisdom, structure, support, and healing.

That does not mean you are not responsible. You are. But responsibility is not the same as shame. Shame says, “I am broken.” Responsibility says, “I need to understand what is happening and build a better way forward.”

That is what this article is about. If you struggle with ADHD and porn addiction, low motivation, procrastination, technology addiction, brain fog, or the feeling that your brain keeps working against you, I want you to learn a different way to approach recovery. You do not overcome porn addiction by hating your brain into submission. You overcome it by learning how your brain works and building a mindset and lifestyle that support lasting recovery from the inside out.

Why ADHD and Porn Addiction Are So Closely Connected

When people think about ADHD, they often think about distractibility, procrastination, disorganization, impulsivity, or struggling to finish boring tasks.

Those are real challenges, but they are not the whole picture. At the center of ADHD is often a struggle with dopamine, the brain chemical deeply connected to motivation, focus, pursuit, novelty, and reward.

Dopamine helps you move toward things. It helps you get out of your chair, begin a task, pursue a goal, eat a meal, drink water, solve a problem, and stay engaged with something long enough to make progress. When dopamine is low or dysregulated, a man may feel like he has ambition but no engine. He may want to do good things, but initiating those things feels almost physically painful.

This is where ADHD and pornography addiction often overlap. Porn is a high-dopamine behavior. It offers novelty, intensity, fantasy, escape, and immediate reward. A man who already feels understimulated, unfocused, restless, or emotionally overwhelmed may find himself drawn toward porn not only because of sexual desire, but because his brain is looking for stimulation. His brain is trying to feel alive, engaged, relieved, powerful, wanted, or soothed.

That does not make porn good. It does not make relapse harmless. But it helps explain why simply saying, “Just stop,” often does not work. The man is not only fighting a behavior. He is fighting a trained reward system.

If you have ADHD, ADHD-like symptoms, or a long history of low motivation and novelty seeking, porn addiction recovery has to include more than blocking websites and trying harder. You have to ask a deeper question: “What is my brain looking for, and how can I train it to pursue what is healthy, meaningful, and life-giving?”

Porn Trains the Brain to Crave Escape

Porn addiction is not just about what happens during the behavior. It is about what happens before and after.

Before porn, a man often feels something he does not want to feel. It may be stress, anxiety, boredom, rejection, shame, loneliness, resentment, inadequacy, fatigue, or pressure. Sometimes he does not even consciously recognize the feeling. He just feels off. His brain wants relief. His body wants regulation. His nervous system wants a way out.

Then porn offers a shortcut. It gives a fast dopamine spike. It creates the illusion of connection without vulnerability, pleasure without responsibility, novelty without effort, and control without relationship. For a few minutes, the man feels transported out of his life.

But then comes the aftermath. The dopamine drops. Shame rises. Focus gets worse. Motivation decreases. His connection to God, his wife, his children, his work, and himself feels weaker. The very thing he used to escape the pain now creates more pain.

This is the vicious cycle: low motivation, emotional discomfort, or dopamine hunger leads to porn; porn creates a spike; the spike leads to a crash; the crash creates more shame, fog, disconnection, and low motivation; and then the brain starts looking for another escape.

Brother, this is why porn addiction recovery cannot only be about resisting the next urge. You need to understand the whole loop. You need to know what leads to the craving, what the craving promises, what the behavior costs, and what deeper need is actually underneath it.

When you get honest about the loop, you can start to interrupt it.

Your Brain Is Not the Enemy, But It Can Be Trained in the Wrong Direction

One of the most important mindset shifts in recovery is this: your brain is not your enemy, but it can be trained in ways that hurt you.

Many men live as if their brain is the problem. They think, “I am lazy. I am weak. I am undisciplined. I am just an addict. I am always going to be this way.” But that kind of thinking creates more shame, and shame often fuels more hiding, more avoidance, and more relapse.

A better way to think about it is this: your brain has been trained. Porn trains the brain. Technology trains the brain. Short-form content trains the brain. Constant phone checking trains the brain. Junk food, video games, endless entertainment, and procrastination all train the brain. These things teach your nervous system what to expect, what to crave, and where to go when life gets uncomfortable.

The good news is that the brain can be retrained.

This is not instant. It is not magical. It does not happen because you listen to one podcast or have one emotional breakthrough. But over time, your brain can become more capable of focus, presence, discipline, connection, and emotional regulation. You can build a life where porn becomes less attractive because your brain and body are no longer living in constant chaos, overstimulation, and escape.

That is why I often say recovery is not just about stopping a behavior. It is about building a life that supports sobriety.

Technology Addiction Can Make ADHD Symptoms Worse

One of the strongest parts of my conversation with Ania was our discussion on technology. Many men are not just struggling with porn. They are struggling with a whole digital ecosystem that trains the same restless, novelty-seeking brain that runs to porn.

Short-form content is especially powerful. It gives the brain quick hits of novelty over and over again. Swipe, laugh, react, scroll, repeat. Your attention does not have to stay anywhere for very long. You never have to sit with boredom. You never have to complete a thought. You never have to be fully present.

Over time, that does something to a man. It makes normal life feel painfully slow. Prayer feels boring. Scripture feels hard. Work feels impossible. Marriage feels demanding. Parenting feels overstimulating. Silence feels unbearable. A simple task feels like torture because the brain has become accustomed to constant stimulation.

This matters for porn addiction recovery because porn thrives in the same environment: low presence, high stimulation, emotional avoidance, novelty seeking, and easy escape.

Your smartphone may not be showing you porn, but it may still be training the brain that wants porn. Every unnecessary check, every notification, every scroll, every moment of reaching for the phone instead of staying present teaches your brain, “I do not have to be here. I can leave this moment whenever I want.”

That is dangerous for recovery.

Smartphone Boundaries Are Recovery Boundaries

For years, I have worked on reducing my own relationship with technology. I have seen how easily the phone can pull me out of presence. Even when I am not scrolling social media, I can still use my phone for email, calendars, task lists, notifications, bank accounts, messages, and endless productivity-related checking. It can look responsible on the outside while still training distraction on the inside.

That is why smartphone boundaries matter. For some men, this may mean getting rid of the smartphone entirely or switching to a dumb phone. For others, it may mean turning off notifications, using grayscale, deleting short-form apps, keeping the phone out of the bedroom, charging it downstairs, using a physical planner, wearing an analog watch, reading paper books, or delaying phone use for the first hour of the day.

The point is not to become legalistic. The point is to become honest.

Ask yourself: “Is my phone helping me become the man I want to be, or is it training me to be distracted, restless, and unavailable?”

If you cannot sit in a quiet room without reaching for your phone, that is not just a phone issue. That is a presence issue. And presence is central to recovery. You cannot deeply connect with God, your wife, your children, your work, or your own emotions if your attention is constantly being hijacked.

A man who wants to overcome porn addiction has to guard his attention because attention is one of the most valuable things he has.

Stop Treating Brain Wiring Like Moral Failure

Many men with ADHD or neurodivergent tendencies grow up believing something is wrong with them. They are called lazy when they are working hard.

They are called careless when they are overwhelmed. They are called irresponsible when they are struggling to organize tasks that other people seem to handle naturally.

Over time, they develop a painful relationship with failure. Every missed deadline, forgotten task, unfinished project, or relapse becomes evidence in the courtroom of shame. “See? I knew I was broken.”

But difficulty focusing is not the same as rebellion. Needing structure is not weakness. Struggling with boring tasks is not proof that you are pathetic. And having a brain that seeks dopamine does not mean you are doomed to addiction.

You need to tell the truth without destroying yourself. That means learning to say, “This is how my brain works, and now I need to build support around it.”

That support might include coaching, therapy, accountability, routines, exercise, spiritual rhythms, phone boundaries, a better work environment, written lists, body doubling, or a recovery community. The point is that you stop pretending you should be able to do everything the way everyone else does.

You are not called to live someone else’s recovery. You are called to build the recovery system that actually works for your life.

Structure Is Not a Prison; Structure Is Freedom

A lot of men resist structure because they think structure will make them feel trapped. But for men with ADHD, addiction, or strong novelty-seeking tendencies, a lack of structure often creates more slavery, not more freedom.

Without structure, the brain drifts. It chases whatever feels most interesting in the moment. It starts twenty things and finishes none. It avoids the boring task. It waits until panic creates urgency. It stays busy but does not move forward. And in the empty spaces, porn begins to look more appealing.

The answer is not rigid control. The answer is the right structure.

For some men, a detailed schedule works. For others, a general rhythm works better. Personally, I do not love someone telling me every tiny step of how to do something. I like a clear “what,” and then I want freedom in the “how.” But I still need structure. I need deadlines. I need routines. I need a plan. I need a way to come back when my brain wants to wander.

In recovery, structure might look like a morning routine, a workout plan, a bedtime, a weekly accountability call, a daily emotional check-in, a written task list, a specific plan for high-risk times, or a boundary around technology. These are not punishments. They are supports.

Structure is how you reduce the number of decisions your addicted brain has to make when it is tired.

Build a Morning Routine That Supports Dopamine, Focus, and Recovery

How you begin the day matters. If the first thing you give your brain is a phone, your brain starts the day in reaction mode. Before you have prayed, moved, breathed, reflected, or connected with God, you have already given your attention to the world.

That may seem small, but it is not small. For many men, the morning sets the direction for the nervous system.

A recovery-centered morning routine does not have to be complicated. It might include prayer, Scripture, meditation, breathwork, walking, exercise, sunlight, journaling, or simply sitting in silence before God. These practices help you begin the day grounded instead of scattered. They train the brain toward presence rather than stimulation.

I have found this to be one of the most important parts of my own life. When I begin my day with prayer, meditation, Scripture, exercise, and breathwork, I am not just checking religious or self-improvement boxes. I am regulating my brain and body. I am resetting my intention. I am remembering who I am and what kind of man I want to be.

For a man in porn addiction recovery, the first hour of the day is an opportunity to train the brain before the world starts training it for you.

Your Body Is Part of Your Porn Addiction Recovery

A lot of men try to overcome pornography addiction from the neck up. They think if they can just understand enough, pray enough, or think the right thoughts, they will be free. Understanding matters. Prayer matters deeply. But your body also matters.

Sleep affects recovery. Food affects recovery. Exercise affects recovery. Sunlight affects recovery. Stress affects recovery. Brain fog, inflammation, fatigue, and poor physical health can all make cravings stronger and self-control weaker.

This does not mean you need to become obsessive about health. It means you need to stop ignoring the biological side of recovery.

A man who is sleep-deprived, eating junk, sitting all day, getting no sunlight, and living on caffeine and stress will have a much harder time regulating emotions, resisting cravings, and focusing on what matters. His brain is already under strain. Porn then becomes one more way to find quick relief.

Start simple. Walk in the morning. Lift weights a few times per week. Eat real food. Reduce processed sugar. Notice how your body responds to dairy, gluten, or other foods if they create brain fog or digestive issues for you. Get sunlight. Breathe deeply. Go to bed on time.

You are not just building a sober mind. You are building a sober body.

Break the Big Thing Into the Next Thing

One of the most practical points from the episode is that many neurodivergent men struggle to break big goals into small steps. They can see the vision, but the beginning feels overwhelming.

This happens in recovery all the time. A man says, “I need to overcome porn addiction.” That goal is true, but it is also massive. If he does not know what the next step is, he may freeze. Then he avoids. Then he feels ashamed. Then the shame becomes another trigger.

So make it smaller.

Do not start with, “I need to fix my whole life.” Start with, “I need to tell the truth to one person.” Do not start with, “I need to become disciplined forever.” Start with, “I need to walk for twenty minutes today.” Do not start with, “I need to repair my entire marriage.” Start with, “I need to be honest with my wife tonight.” Do not start with, “I can never relapse again.” Start with, “I need to make the next sober choice.”

This is not lowering the standard. This is how you build momentum.

Overwhelm creates avoidance, but clarity creates movement. When the next step is small enough, you can take it. And when you take it consistently, your identity begins to change.

Accountability Helps Interrupt the Addicted Brain

Porn addiction grows in secrecy. ADHD patterns often grow in isolation. Put those together, and a man can spend years stuck in private loops of procrastination, relapse, shame, and recommitment.

Accountability interrupts that.

A good accountability relationship is not someone shaming you, controlling you, or treating you like a child. It is someone helping you stay connected to reality. It is someone who asks what you said you would do, whether you did it, where you drifted, what you are avoiding, and what support you need next.

For some men, that accountability comes through a coach. For others, it may be a therapist, mentor, spouse, recovery brother, pastor, or close friend. The key is that the relationship must include honesty, consistency, and loving challenge.

You do not need someone who only says, “You got this.” You need someone who can also say, “Brother, let’s tell the truth. What happened? What is the next right step?”

Recovery requires support because addiction thrives when a man is alone with his own distorted thinking.

Spiritual Grounding Gives Recovery a Deeper Anchor

For me, my relationship with God has been central to recovery. Prayer grounds me. Scripture reorients me. Surrender helps me stop pretending I can carry everything on my own. When I am scattered, tempted, overwhelmed, ashamed, or discouraged, I need more than a productivity hack. I need to come back to God.

Spiritual grounding is not a replacement for practical action. It is the foundation beneath it. A man still needs boundaries, structure, accountability, emotional work, and healthy habits. But when those things are rooted in a relationship with God, they become more than self-improvement. They become part of becoming the man God is calling him to become.

Sometimes this is as simple as kneeling down before a task you do not want to do and praying, “God, help me do this.” Sometimes it is asking Him to help you serve your family instead of escaping into resentment. Sometimes it is confessing honestly without collapsing into shame. Sometimes it is sitting in silence long enough to remember that you are not your urges, your failures, or your diagnosis.

A man who is grounded in God has somewhere to return when his brain feels chaotic.

Build a Life That Makes Porn Less Necessary

The goal of porn addiction recovery is not to spend the rest of your life white-knuckling against desire. The deeper goal is to build a life where porn becomes less necessary because you are no longer depending on it to regulate your emotions, stimulate your brain, avoid your responsibilities, or escape your pain.

That kind of life does not happen by accident. It is built through daily choices. You learn your wiring. You reduce overstimulation. You create structure. You move your body. You eat in a way that supports your brain. You guard your phone use. You build accountability. You practice emotional awareness. You deepen your relationship with God. You break big goals into small steps. You stop calling yourself broken and start taking responsibility for the way your life is training your brain.

If you struggle with ADHD and porn addiction, I want you to hear this clearly: you are not hopeless. You may need a different approach. You may need more structure than you thought. You may need stronger technology boundaries. You may need help regulating your nervous system. You may need to understand dopamine, focus, motivation, and your own patterns more deeply. But you are not beyond change.

Your brain has been trained, and by the grace of God, it can be retrained.

So stop fighting your brain blindly. Start working with it wisely. Build a recovery lifestyle that supports the man you are becoming. Learn what helps you focus, what helps you stay grounded, what helps you connect, and what helps you return to God when life feels heavy.

Freedom is not just about removing porn. It is about becoming present again. Present to God. Present to your wife. Present to your children. Present to your work. Present to your emotions. Present to the life you are actually called to live.

That is where recovery begins to become more than sobriety.

That is where it becomes a transformation.

To find out more or get in touch with Ania Hulsman, visit aniahulsman.com. And if you want more honest, unfiltered conversations like this one, visit her podcast: Neurodivergent Unplugged: Messy, Magnificent Stories from Unlikely Rebels.

Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, including my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.

If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Learn more about the Academy.

If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Learn more about working 1-on-1 with Jake Kastleman.

I hope this episode has been helpful to you. I wish you incredible success in your recovery. 

God bless and much love. 

Recommended Episodes:

The Overstimulated Man: How Modern Life Fuels Porn Addiction, Brain Fog, and Low Motivation

Is Your Smartphone Training You to Be Addicted to Porn? How Technology Hijacks Dopamine, Presence, and Real Connection

From Dopamine Overload to Deep Presence: The Real Path to a Recovery Mindset

Full Transcript of Episode 153: ADHD, Dopamine, and Porn Addiction: How to Finally Work With Your Brain Instead of Against It

Jake Kastleman (00:00.16)

Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.

Ania Hulsman (00:14.814)

Mm.

Ania Hulsman (00:25.522)

With ADHD, is that you need structure, you need a structure to function, but the structure, corporate structures, often don't work for you, or they work to a certain extent, and other parts of it you you learn to hate. It's not a moral failing that I find certain things difficult. It is literally how my brain is wired, it's my biochemistry, and

There are things I can do to support it, but it's never gonna change. I'm never going to become a neurotypical person. A lot of kids who are diagnosed with ADHD don't have ADHD, they're just addicted to technology. It literally is rewiring our brains and it's giving us a much shorter attention span, especially the short form content.

Jake Kastleman (01:21.454)

Do you ever feel unfocused, unmotivated, or disconnected? Do you feel an intense drive to create, build, pursue, and do something meaningful, but your brain keeps getting in the way? Is procrastination a constant habit for you, despite all your responsibilities and the reasons you have to engage, get things done, and push forward? Your will to accomplish simply falls short of your ambition.

ADHD and pornography addiction go hand in hand, my friend. They are both dopamine disorders, meaning they both involve the same brain chemical that drives focus, motivation, and direction. So when we don't have enough dopamine, we can experience both ADHD and pornography addiction. And many men I've worked with do struggle with both of these. The world will tell you that you can't do anything about these issues, ADHD or pornography, that it's

genetic that you struggle with ADHD and it's something you simply need to be medicated for. The world will also tell you that once an addict, always an addict. I disagree with both of these sentiments, my friend. While challenges like ADHD or susceptibility to addiction may follow us for a lifetime, there are profound ways we can significantly improve these struggles, grow our capacities, and heal our brains. Today's guest, Anya Holzman,

Specializes in coaching adults with neurodivergence, including ADHD, into higher ways of living. Anya is a peak performance coach with over 2,000 coaching hours and seven years trained in-house under Tony Robbins. Anya brings rigorous professional grounding and hard-one-lived experience to the conversation. Her Lighthouse Leader framework helps people stop performing an exhausting, polished version of themselves.

And start leading from a place of genuine wholeness, visible, grounded, and impossible to ignore. In this episode, Anya and I discuss the realities of ADHD and other neurodivergent challenges and how these things can become our superpowers. We also discuss grounded, real-life strategies to improve our focus and motivation and overcome porn addiction. On top of it all, I must say that Anya is a genuinely fun, good, and skilled individual.

Jake Kastleman (03:42.604)

And I deeply enjoyed our conversation. Before we dive in, please rate, like, and follow this podcast. It's a huge help to my team and the growth of this show, and it helps us bring you the latest in porn addiction recovery and personal growth. Let's get moving. Anya Holzman, Peak Performance Coach for the Gloriously Unboxable. Welcome to the podcast.

Ania Hulsman (04:09.036)

Thank you. I love hearing you use my tag because it's such a cool one. It always makes me smile.

Jake Kastleman (04:16.986)

Is. It really is so cool. When I saw on your website, I was like, I love that. That just makes me happy. And you just your facial expression and everything on your home screen. J I'm just like, yes, I want to talk to this person. So it's a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for coming. Thank you. today I want to kind of start out. We're going to center in on ADHD and addiction today. these are

Highly correlated and connected. And I want to just start by saying something about this, and then we'll dive into kind of our first question and start the conversation. Addiction itself is often not the original problem. I'd say it's pretty much never the original problem. It's our nervous system or our brains attempt to escape life, get away from

w the way things are, the pressures that we carry, the shame that we carry. For neurodivergent people or those with ADHD, whether they are diagnosed or not diagnosed, healing requires far more than willpower. A lot of people will say, Well, why don't you just stop doing that? And that feels impossible, obviously with addiction, but then ADHD also comes with a lot of those messages too, where people say, Well just do this or just try this and they feel like they can't

Ania Hulsman (05:41.034)

So easy.

Jake Kastleman (05:43.904)

Right. Right. Yes. So it requires us, we've got to understand the brain. We need to know how to release the shame. We've got to learn how our body and our and our mind operate and build a life that works with our wiring, as you say, rather than against it. So I'm excited to talk about that today. what tell people kind of more about what you do and what led you to this work personally. I think we'll start there.

Facunsky.

Ania Hulsman (06:14.446)

That's a great place to start. So I work with gloriously unboxable people. and that's my really positive way of saying neurodivergent, basically. People who whose brains just don't follow the regular way of working. And typically they've pe been people who felt

Ashamed for who they are or how they work growing up. especially if they were never diagnosed. So I think if you get an early diagnosis, there is an opportunity to get the right support. And if if you have the right support, then it it's never a problem, right? But when you're being forced to fit into a system that was never built for

a brain like yours or mine, and I'm talking sort of more generally for the for this community, then you do feel like, you know, whatever you do, it's, you know, you t you have a tendency to try and force yourself to be around peg in a square hole. and that's really, really stressful. And it can lead to all sorts of self

What's the word I'm looking for? Self medicating behaviours, right? For me, for example, I was a terrible binge eater when I was a teenager because I just I couldn't deal with all the emotions that I was having and the challenges that I had. and for other people it can be anything, like even addiction to porn, which is you know why we're having this conversation today.

Jake Kastleman (07:46.458)

Yeah. yeah.

Ania Hulsman (08:13.794)

So I work with gloriously unboxable people who just wanna stop feeling ashamed for how they're wired and to embrace it and learn how to work with their wiring, so that they can thrive, design their life around it because context is everything.

Jake Kastleman (08:31.854)

Yes.

Ania Hulsman (08:32.396)

And then there was my personal story that I was meant to talk about as well. So the thing about me is that I do have ADHD and I can well I'm also perimenopausal, which adds to the to the fun. And it means that I I can forget what I'm saying. what what I'm what I'm I can actually forget what I'm saying mid sentence, which is horrifying at times.

Jake Kastleman (08:47.421)

so fun.

Jake Kastleman (08:56.45)

That that will make this this conversation all the more fun.

Ania Hulsman (09:01.492)

It does make it fun. So feel free to remind me if I go completely off topic. But yeah, so my my story is that I was undiagnosed. I I I actually was quite good at school apart from English and maths, which I still did reasonably well in, but they were the places where I could not perform as well as, you know, I could I couldn't

show my intelligence in. So I I got slightly lower grades, still, you know, good. Let's just say I'm in the UK system, I got Bs in those subjects and A's and everything else, right? And so I I was clearly intelligent and I always had very intelligent friends. but I went to university and studied languages which

Retrospectively, maybe wasn't the best option. But I basically what happened to me is that I, my twenties, I had no idea who I was. I just tend I just followed the paths that people suggested to me because I I had no idea who I was. I was very, very heavily masking. And and I didn't really know what I wanted. And it was only

when I reached my late, late, late, late 20s, like 28, 29, when I made the f the first real decision to follow what I was really deeply interested and passionate about, rather than just something that I was good at. and and that's when I actually transitioned into coaching, which I've been now doing for like 15, 16 years. and

and so I had no idea who I was in my twenties. And and it and I still found it it took me a really long time. I'm now 46, it took me a really long time to peel off those layers. It was a lot of personal development work, a lot of confronting what's the right word here?

Jake Kastleman (11:26.966)

Your demons or skeletons in your closet?

Ania Hulsman (11:30.274)

Say that again.

Jake Kastleman (11:32.364)

I said the you're confronting your demons or the skeletons in the closet. That's what I was thinking. But you're thinking of something else.

Ania Hulsman (11:37.282)

Yeah. Yeah I I I was thinking more that there were situations which I'm also happy to talk about where I I thought X was true about myself and it turned out that it wasn't true. So one I'll give you one example because I think this is a really good one. I was a total victim when I was in my young, younger years, right? I

literally defined myself by the fact that I had had a hard life. And I would tell everyone about it. And I to be really specific

Jake Kastleman (12:19.042)

That sound that sounds familiar. It sounds familiar to me, by the way.

Ania Hulsman (12:22.53)

Very familiar. I I I I I had a a difficult family set up, you know, broken broken family. My parents ended up hating each other. Although my mum was always tried to be d diplomatic about my dad, and my dad just was in a terrible place. And and then

When I was 17, my dad actually died in an accident. So that is how I started to define myself. So I would tell everybody.

Hi, my name is Anya. How are you? Yes. So my dad died when I was 17, and it was almost that quick that I would define myself by the passing of my father, right? and somebody once said this to me, said, Do you know that you do that? And I was, and I I absolutely denied it. No way. There's no way that I do that. But then of course, the next time I met somebody new.

I suddenly noticed that I wanted to tell them that my dad had died. And this was in my early twenties. So, you know, it was maybe like five years, six years, seven years earlier. And I was still defining myself by that. And and and I was I was almost shocked actually that this was actually true. That it wasn't that it just came up in conversation. It was that I wanted to tell people because I wanted to be acknowledged for the strength and bravery.

For having got through such a difficult part of my you know, life without a father and that he died. And and and so I had to stop. and and it took it it took a lot of self-awareness for me to stop doing that particular thing. and and it was extremely confronting, right? I I didn't like that that is who I had become.

Ania Hulsman (14:25.88)

But I realized that I didn't know how else to define myself because I didn't know I just didn't know who I was. I just knew that people would react positively, give me praise for being a survivor, let's just say, of losing a parent at a young age, fairly young age.

Jake Kastleman (14:44.184)

Yes.

Jake Kastleman (14:48.206)

Yes. And I and I think we I think we actually do this very commonly when it comes to addiction as well. And obviously there's complexities to it, but often the victim mentality plays a heavy role. of and we we victimize ourselves in a lot of ways, where we we continue this cycle of punishing and destroying ourselves and delaying.

The the dreams that we have and the person that we want to be because this addiction is holding us back and it's if only I didn't have this problem and if only I could just overcome this and why is this ruining my life? And we're stuck in that victim mentality of I can't come out.

Ania Hulsman (15:29.57)

Yeah, if I can add to that. so I I've I've never been a porn addict, but I I do I'm familiar with being an addict of food, right? 'Cause that's what I did when I was addicted to when I was a binge eater. and I did purge a little bit, but I I soon realized that was a really bad idea. and I could tell you about some of the stratagems I used, which were, you know, clever in a way, but also didn't solve the problem. But I what

it was the also the addiction, the the the victimhood drove the addiction as well. So I would tell myself, I've had a really hard day. I deserve this food. I need it, actually. And it and also and we talked about this previously in our conversation, it's such an d it's just with porn, it's kind of socially acceptable to do it and

Jake Kastleman (16:13.178)

Yes.

Ania Hulsman (16:26.112)

Eating is obviously socially acceptable. Also, binge eating is socially acceptable. I r I I I I don't know whether you're familiar with the Bridget Jones movies or duck books, but or but or any of these I think it's almost in every program where you like, especially where you have women who get treated badly, badly or dumped by a boyfriend. What do they do?

They buy a tub of ice cream and they eat the entire thing, which is apparently socially acceptable, but is su the worst thing you could possibly do. And also drinking obviously is socially acceptable. Had a hard day, have a drink. and and so we can justify with with the poor me, we can justify the action. But actually all it does is it perpetuates the problem.

Jake Kastleman (17:26.667)

Yeah. Yes. And I think it's so interesting that whereas pornography, and I know in some sense it's it's socially accepted, but there are many circles where it's not, it's very taboo and it's very hush hush and hidden, where something like binge eating or having a drink, right, is very com common practice, not good for us. It's it's numbing the pain. It's not actually engaging with what we're going through and being able to work through it in a healthy way and talk to people about it or connect with people or have some kind of a

grounding hobby that we do. It's I'm just gonna take this substance or, well, in both cases, take a substance, whether it's eating or alcohol. And in this case, it's just I'm taking in, right? When it comes to pornography, I am taking in a substance through my eyes, right? And I'm going to use this in order to numb me or help me feel better. Same, same function, right? Same function. Only in one case.

Ania Hulsman (18:21.774)

And you're giving yourself a little bit of a a a dopamine hit, maybe an o oxytocin hit. I don't know like the the the biochemistry that that goes with addiction. But I can imagine that you're you're stimulating quite a few a few of those feel-good neurotransmitters.

Jake Kastleman (18:40.803)

Yes.

Jake Kastleman (18:44.642)

Yes, unfortunately. The the dopamine is a heavy press on dopamine. pornography, engaging with pornography is, according to some research, three hundred percent of the dopaminergic release of actual sexual engagement in real life. Three hundred percent. Because novel experiences, you know, whatever whatever you want to experience fantasy wise.

People wise, right? You have access to all of it in an instant. You can switch and flip between, I mean, a hundred different individuals in a matter of minutes. So the dopamine release from that is in s is crazy. And then it's obviously often coupled with masturbation. And so then there's a serotonin release, there's an oxytocin release. It is then bonding you to a screen. Right. And from a relationship perspective,

You're talking about now my brain expects that someone I'll have a relationship with will endlessly entertain me, will will fulfill all my needs, will not demand anything of me. That really, really messes with the mind big time.

Ania Hulsman (19:58.306)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (19:59.278)

Yeah. Yes. So so when it comes to ADHD, a lot of people hear ADHD. They think distractability, they think maybe procrastination or being disorganized. When we talk about ADHD or other neurodivergence in general, perhaps, but ADHD specifically, we talk about that in addiction. What is the core connection people need to understand first with reference to how does ADHD lead into

addiction for a lot of people.

Ania Hulsman (20:31.906)

Yeah. The core relationship is the dopamine. So if you have ADHD, you have a lower base level of dopamine to a neurotypical person who doesn't have ADHD. So what that means is that you are dopamine seeking all the time. That is your that's your foundation.

And if something isn't interesting and you're not motivated, you can't do it. So I don't know whether your listeners are familiar with the fact that dopamine is the motivation mod molecule, you know. Dopamine dopamine is what gets you out of your chair and gets you doing something. It's what gets you to go and have a meal so you don't starve or drink water so you don't die of thirst.

that makes you go to work so that you can pay your bills. and where you have low dopamine and and I suspect that some people have lower dopamine than others, so that it's also a s a scale. it's really like the the lower your dopamine, the more novelty seeking, the more novelty seeking you will be, the more you'll look for dopamine in places to

to to invigorate you, to to get you moving, to engage you in life. and and so that is why it's so I I d I don't want to say that just because if you ha if you have ADHD you're gonna have an addiction, but that is why there is much closer relationship between ADHD and and addictions.

And it you know, it's not not not that y you have one, you must have the other, but it it's more much easier to get addicted to things. If you have low dopamine as a base level.

Jake Kastleman (22:39.958)

And it's this really vicious cycle, right, from an from a neuroscience perspective, because okay, let's say that I'm someone with lower dopamine, perhaps naturally, genetically, or through my nurturing or whatever I've been doing growing up as a child, teenage teenager, et cetera. Now I am far more prone towards seeking out novelty and excitement and you know, some way of getting that

high, right? Because in general I don't feel as motivated or focused. And you know, I'm trying to get that spike, right? It's actually my my body is trying to seek to feel better. And so then I'll seek out porn or drugs or alcohol, whatever it is. And then because that spikes my dopamine so high and then it crashes below my dopamine baseline.

Now I feel even less focused, less motivated, less connected to the people around me. And so I'm more in that ADHD zone and then I'll seek out more addiction. And so it's it's this this relentless cycle that people get into.

Ania Hulsman (23:50.092)

Yeah. There is actually a statistic that those with ADHD statistically live ten years less. They have ten years shorter life than those who don't. And it's on account of dopamine seeking activities which lead to death. So accidental deaths and the comorbidity, so depression and

such that can lead to lot of premature loss of life as well, which is very sad.

Jake Kastleman (24:28.366)

Yes. Yes, a hundred percent. And so Anya, when you were sharing your story, I related to it on s on so many levels, honestly. and I think about my own life in that throughout my childhood, teenage years, most a l a lot of it I I can't really remember what it was like as a child, to be honest, but as a teenager I know that I really, really struggled to focus and I didn't know that.

because it was just my life. Like I just assumed, yeah, it's just really, really hard to get stuff done in school. And I got good grades because I had a high expectation of myself and wanted to perform at a high level. But the thing for me is I noticed that when I got into my own business, my my performance just skyrocketed. Whereas in working for someone

Being employed, I jumped from job to job, multiple different fields. Nothing ever really captured me. I got bored and I didn't recognize that that's what it was. I had all sorts of other excuses and reasons of why I was gonna switch to the next field.

Ania Hulsman (25:42.316)

There are always the excuses, there are always the justifications. I also I think the longest time that I ever stayed in a job before I became a coach was eighteen months. Everything else was like six months.

Jake Kastleman (25:54.896)

my gosh. Yeah, that's that sounds like my life pattern. That's how it was. And and for me, I know in the background throughout my twenties, it really started when I was 18, I had a sense inside me. For me, it's very much a spiritual sense, you know, I believe, is it which was I wanna help people with their brains, right? You wanted to become a coach. I wanted to become a coach, right? And help people with their brains. And for me, that came

Down to addiction that I wanted to help people with, right? But what I do in this space is helping people with their lifestyle and their mindset in order to experience recovery. Right. That's what I wanted to do, but I was absolutely terrified of pursuing that for a multiple different reasons. What will people think? Will I be successful at it? Could I even do that? I don't know where to start. It seems so big and massive. I want it to be this huge thing, right? And I had a hard time breaking it down to just start a podcast or like.

Just join an addiction group and like start helping some people. I didn't break it down to be that small. And so I just procrastinated it endlessly throughout my twenties and ran and ran and ran from that. And I could get a lot into what that did to me mentally. But until I finally accepted, look, this is who I am. Like I I want to do something meaningful. I'm a passionate person. And so I've got to use that passion.

Then I feel like I could do this work, you know, twelve hours a day and still be motivated to do more, where it was always this grind and always this struggle that I just I had a lot of techniques and a lot of things I did spiritually and mentally to adapt to that with employers and and things, but n it was nothing like going off and doing my own thing. It is so, so much more motivating.

Ania Hulsman (27:45.774)

Interesting. That's why there is a disproportionately higher number of neurodivergent people who are business owners and entrepreneurs than there are in the general population. So there's an over representation for exactly those reasons. Yeah. I could never do a boring job and I should never do a job which was against my values. Give you an example of that. I

worked in recruitment for a short time in the city of London and and it was so cutthroat and I remember this I remember this really vividly. I had two candidates for one position and my thinking was, well, the company has hired us. Which of these candidates would

best suit the company. Whereas my boss said, no, think about which one of these could we put it more easily place somewhere else so that we could get to commission twice. And I thought that's so like I could I couldn't do it. I couldn't stomach that at all. so I I mean I didn't I didn't say that I think I was in that job for three months only. And and

Jake Kastleman (29:08.526)

Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (29:13.292)

Yeah, and I've never really had a problem with motivation because I only I could I could only do jobs that I was interested in. Like I I I c I literally cannot make my I would not be able to make myself do a job which I find boring. Like even doing my Yeah. I was gonna say that even doing my pulling teeth and I need a lot of support to be able to do that. It's not because it's I can't it's not 'cause it's hard.

Because it's, you know, I can do it. It's not complicated. It's just so boring for me that I need like all sorts of systems and supports to to to make sure I get it done. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (29:54.52)

Totally. And for obviously not I'd like for everybody to be able to have their own business and I totally advocate for that. I'm like everybody deserves to live their dreams. I really I really do genuinely feel that way. But not everybody is. Right. So what are some of those supports and systems and things that you use you use when it comes to maybe something you're not so passionate about and that is harder to get motivated with? What are some of those things that you do?

Ania Hulsman (30:22.842)

I am going to answer that question. But before I do, I feel like well, you see, this is this is this is an A D H me moment don't D moment. I had something I wanted to say and I was like, this is really important. I'm gonna say it. And then because I wanted to let you finish your sentence and not jump in, I forgot what I was gonna say.

Jake Kastleman (30:45.07)

It's par for the course. It's par for the course.

Ania Hulsman (30:50.526)

Yeah. this and now I've remembered. Okay. So that little interlude helped me remember. now I've forgotten again.

Jake Kastleman (31:01.196)

Ha ha.

Ania Hulsman (31:01.75)

You could totally edit this out if you wanted.

Jake Kastleman (31:04.076)

It'll it's great though. It's really authentic.

Ania Hulsman (31:07.69)

It's so it is this is this is like this is my life. this is it. Structure, structure, that's what I was gonna say. So what's I have noticed is that ADHD is who come out of corporate life, which is super structured, can can often really struggle when they become entrepreneurs because they they lack the structure. So the irony with ADHD is that you need structure.

You need a structure to work with to to to to function. but the structure, corporate structures often don't work for you, or they work to a certain extent and and other parts of it you you learn to hate, right? So I I was also a teacher in my previous life. it the structure was so rigid and it was so fast-paced. that and it it expected so much sort of detail.

Jake Kastleman (31:54.413)

Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (32:05.524)

admin type work for me that I I could not thrive in that job. So I thought that I hated structure, but actually it was the wrong structure for me. I I need structure. I love structure. Structure loves me. But I it needs to be the right structure that is built around how my brain works. So one of the challenges I have is that I don't process very quickly. I I need time and then I process very deeply, but I I'm I'm not super fast.

like some people can be and even some neurodivergent people, right? It's not that that just happens to be my profile. and and I d and so yes, whilst some it is it can be really great for an ADHD to go out there and start their own business, it's also important to realize that you do need systems and structures to support you so that you you don't end up

being really busy and getting nothing done, which I have also done, by the way.

Jake Kastleman (33:06.158)

That sounds like my first business. That's what I did. Really busy and getting nothing done.

Ania Hulsman (33:12.33)

Exactly. Exactly. so support supports and systems. So accountability is really important. So I you know, and if you s if you start off as a a solopreneur, of course you're the only one there and there's nobody holding you accountable. So it's really easy to to go off on some rabbit hole and start twenty new projects and not finish a single one. and

and so it's really it's a really good idea to find someone and it can be a coach. So I support people with this, I hold them accountable, or it could be a your spouse, it could be a really good friend, someone who is willing to hold you accountable on a regular basis and challenge you on what you're actually doing. So that's really, really important.

Jake Kastleman (34:03.726)

I think I needed that so badly and I didn't do it 'cause I was like I don't want anybody to tell me what to do, right? But that's not but I think

Ania Hulsman (34:15.469)

That when you grow up with especially undiagnosed ADHD, it feels like you try a lot of stuff and it doesn't work out and there's no logic to it. You know, people's or people might call you lazy and you're like, I worked really, really hard on that. And, you know, how can you call me lazy? And so

Jake Kastleman (34:19.959)

Right. Yes.

Ania Hulsman (34:42.19)

You can develop a a really negative relationship with failure. And for me, I had a lot of shame around how my brain worked. Cause, you know, I I I couldn't, I didn't understand it. Like and and for me, diagnosis and understanding neurodivergence actually was incredibly liberating because it made me realize it's not it's not a moral failing that I find certain things difficult.

It is literally how my brain is wired. It's my biochemistry. And and there are things I can do to support it, but it's never gonna change. I'm never going to become a neurotypical person, right? So yeah. So that's something to be aware of, you know, if is is you know, what's your relationship like with failure? How willing are you to to try things and get them wrong? And are you willing to talk to people about that?

Jake Kastleman (35:41.63)

Andrew was dedicated. He was a good father, husband, and a high level professional at a successful firm. He prided himself on quality work, service, and being there for those he loved. But underneath it all, Andrew was carrying a secret. His addiction to porn he'd had for more than thirty years. Andrew had never told anyone about his challenge. He'd kept it hidden even as he served in significant roles in his church, continuing to appear like he had everything together. The day his wife found out.

was traumatic. Andrew felt ruined and his wife felt betrayed. He didn't know what to do and doubted that he could ever overcome the habit he'd carried secretly for so many years. He began trying to will his way into recovery. He'd make it a few days or a little longer between relapses, but he could never get rid of it. When we started working together, Andrew told me I'm not a feelings guy. But after a few months he learned that he carried stress, shame and fear around with him

And he didn't even know it. He also learned that these unconscious emotions were fueling his cravings for porn. I taught him how to become deeply aware of these emotions, how to relate to them and respond to them in a healthy way, bringing peace to his mind and diminishing his cravings. We also developed daily routines, boundaries, mindfulness exercises, and I gave him relationship guidance and a community to support him. He experienced a total ecosystem for recovery.

Andrew is over a year sober today. I'm really happy for him. Here's what he had to say. I struggled with porn addiction for more than 30 years. Working with Jake has taught me new habits, real processes that I can work into my daily routine. Jake genuinely cares about my well-being and success. I feel like I'm now able to be more present and that I can deepen my relationships with those I love. I never thought that I'd live a life free of porn.

If you are struggling with porn addiction, head to nomordesire.com/slash coaching to learn more and create your own success story. All right, back to the show. No, it's so good. And and I I think about how, you know, for me, and everybody's mind functions differently, and you need to find how how yours does, right? Which is part of what you do personalize with with people. You know, how can we work with your wiring? Because for me, I found

Jake Kastleman (38:07.008)

If I don't have, I don't want someone to like give me like, you know, at 9 a.m. you're gonna do this, at 9 30 a.m. you're gonna do this. Right. I want, but I do want a general structure and I can be creative within that structure. Tell me I need a what, but don't give me the how. I'll I'll determine the how. Right. And and that was really hard when I started my business because I did spend so many hours diving into rabbit holes and focusing on little

meaningless details and things. And I needed to learn how to give myself some structure. And I will, I will actually give myself deadlines sometimes to to so so that I will like race to the finish, because otherwise I'll get so nuanced in little details. And so I l learning how to actually set up that structure independently was really big. But then also allowing myself to

Like if I have a task list for the day, it's sometimes it's which of these do I feel internally motivated to pursue right now? And sometimes it's not based on that. Sometimes you just got to get something done and you got to pursue it. But but I allow myself to go deep into things because that is how my mind works, is it it processes very, very deeply. And sometimes it's so much so to the point where it I have to watch myself because I become fixated and obsessive and it's all I'm thinking about.

all day long. And my wife is like, my gosh, if you say that one more time or you want to talk about that one more time, like I'm going to lose my mind. She's become so patient with me, honestly. But I have to watch myself there that I don't sink into that and only think about that one thing. And then finally I come up for air, you know, a month or two later and I'm like, where have I been? I've been gone in this world of parts work or this world of this course I was creating or this world, you know, I I was just gone.

in it, you know. So I really need to watch that too.

Ania Hulsman (40:07.214)

Love that. Yeah. I mean, what that is is hyper focus, right? Which is a superpower. I mean, what happens with hyperfocus is that you can get more done than the average person. Like you like I I I I I talk to people who say they can get when they are in hyperfocus mode, they can get in two or three days, they can get done what another a regular person would get done in two or three weeks. It's like they're so intense and they're so productive.

But there is a cost to it, right? The the cost can be exhaustion, burnout. and so you do have to and and everybody again, everyone's different. Like the you know, when even when we talk about ADHD, every ADHD will have a slightly different profile, and and and different additional I'm gonna call them quirks. so it's yeah, it's important for you to really

That's why it's so important to do the work, right? Understand yourself better so you know what support you need. And going so I love what you said. And and I also really love what you said about that that some days you look at your list and like, what can I do today rather than what do I need to do? I I have again going back to being perimenopausal, I have days where, you know, my brain is like barely in first gear, you know, let alone getting into

third or fourth gear. And so I have to be really company myself on those days. And some days I literally I'm like, okay, I'm just going to do this one thing and I'm going to take the rest of the day off because it's not going to serve me to keep pushing and then end up exhausted, not being able to sleep because I'm too tired. And then having the, you know, fallout effect the following days. so

it it does require a lot of self compassion. And again, one of the wonderful things about being a self employed or an entrepreneur is that you get to design those things. You get to design around your brain. Like you can create that spaciousness and where you can hyper focus for like fourteen hours a day for a whole week and then take a whole week off to recover.

Jake Kastleman (42:29.974)

Yes. No, I I think and for for me what I started doing in my life is speaking of structure, but but also building motivation momentum, I discovered that how I started my day determined so much of how the rest of the day went. Not always, and sometimes you've got you have hard things that come up or you go through difficult things, but I needed to really get into this.

Rhythm of in the mornings, you know, I'm I'm in prayer and meditation, I'm reading scripture, I'm exercising, and I'm doing breath work. Because I start my day that way, that like really ramps up the motivation and the focus so that I can carry that with me and get more in that flow. Because some people just wake up and they just go out. When they say that, I'm like, that.

provoke so much anxiety in me. Like I'm like, I don't even know how you just like get up and just go out and don't have something to ground and structure you because my mind is just chaos. It's so busy and it's just going, going, going, going. And I can't I can't do that. Well, that's how I lived actually that's how I lived my whole all my teenage years. And I wound up in multiple addictions. And I had this is one of the primary things I replaced it with is how do I ground myself

I had to, you know.

Ania Hulsman (43:59.392)

I I've also found myself in a similar place to you. I don't touch my phone until a good hour to hour and a half after I've woken up. I charge it downstairs because I know if if it's next to me in the morning, first thing I'm gonna do is go on the phone. And once I'm on the phone, it's like a time void. Like I I I have no idea where the time goes or what I'm doing because I just noticed this, I noticed that, and then

And it does get me into this hyper mode. And that's when I get the that that really chaotic brain and and and start struggling to focus on one thing and stay stick to one thing. So I I I need to stay away from from technology first thing. I and I also I actually only implemented it maybe six or nine months ago where I I go for daily walks in the morning.

so I I dropped my kids off at school and I always had this excuse that I didn't have the time right, but I I learned that if I drop my kids at school, I've got like a minimum of 20 minutes, and sometimes I often push it to half an hour, and I will there's a beautiful heath near where their school is, and I will just go for a walk. And that movement changed so much for me because it meant

it it gave me a clearer a clearer mind. Also, you don't scroll, hopefully, don't scroll while you're while you're walking in nature. I might listen to long form content. I might listen to a podcast. I might make a phone call to a friend, you know, but that's all and I sometimes I don't. Sometimes I just listen to, you know, some spiritual as I call it spiritual music. But like

Jake Kastleman (45:38.121)

Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (45:56.512)

music, vibe music, not like, you know, pop stuff. Nice. and it really that that has massively changed my life. And so I love that you said this. I don't I I think that if you can add a meditation practice like you have, a prayer practice, connect to yourself, then you're super boosting your brain at that point and helping you to focus in the right direction rather than be

Jake Kastleman (45:59.87)

Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (46:26.86)

a victim, going back to that term, to modern life and your wiring, which makes it even more challenging if you indeed have that kind of wiring.

Jake Kastleman (46:41.006)

Yes. And I I think you mentioned technology. I think it plays a massive role in all of this. And I'd love to discuss kind of how what your insights are on that. I know well, let's just start there. What are your insights on how technology is contributing to ADHD? And then obviously that is then leading into addiction.

Ania Hulsman (47:04.364)

Yeah. D for those who don't see me on camera, I keep looking down because I actually am writing key words down to keep me focused and stay in this conversation.

Jake Kastleman (47:14.934)

I know. Yes. I I know. I I I love it. I love it. And I will do that often as well myself. I have a notebook in front of me, so

Ania Hulsman (47:24.256)

And I I and I I am pointing that out because there's no shame in that. You know, I I'm using a strategy that supports me to show up at my best and there is no shame in that at all. so you're saying tech technology, how that leads into ADHD. There are a lot of psych

Psychiatrists, psychotherapists nowadays who are saying that kids, a lot of kids who are diagnosed with ADHD, don't have ADHD. They're just adopt addicted to technology. It literally is rewiring our brains and it's giving us a much shorter attention span, especially the short form content. So anything that's a a a short little dopamine hit, I actually am on social media.

I am on I'm mainly on LinkedIn because I much prefer the long form, longer form content. and I notice that if I'm on Instagram or TikTok or any of those other others, I like my brain starts getting really hyper. So I you know, the best thing to do is to really observe like how is your how is your brain reacting to the technology?

Do you can you can you be, how many hours or minutes can you be without your phone? Right. And if it's not for very long before you start checking again, you have to check in with yourself whether that's who you want to be and how you want to support yourself and function in the world. again, no judgment because again, this is the this is the w the modern day, this is how we're expecting

you know, what everybody does, but there are a number of people who started to ditch mobile phones completely. I c I heard Ed Sheeran, Simon Cowell also completely ditched smartphones so that they because they don't like the impact that it has on them and how it affects their brains. And that's that's for everybody, whether you are neurodivergent or not.

Ania Hulsman (49:40.002)

So it's it's something to be really conscious of and and protect yourself against. and and and again, it doesn't mean that you can't use it, but perhaps there are you could you know, instead of instead of short form content, switch to longer form content which doesn't affect your brain in the same way.

Jake Kastleman (50:02.478)

Yes, a hundred percent. And actually I just so I'm I'm working on this in my own personal life because I'm looking to take kind of my ability to be present and in the moment to a greater level. I've realized that since I was, you know, a little kid, like four years old, I've never my whole life

I don't want to say been off of technology, but had technology really minimal. You know, as a kid it was TV and video games, right? Then as a teen it was also those, but then I went to, you know, cell phones, then smartphone. And then when I was 18, I got off of video games and stopped them because I realized how much it impacted my ability to focus and feel motivated and my recovery. It it played right into my addiction.

Because of the dopamine spikes and the entertainment seeking and the instant gratification. I just realized I can't do this anymore and be sober. That made my sobriety so much easier to attain with reference to pornography. And then so I've realized my smartphone has been and and even though I don't scroll social media or do things like that, for me it's taskless and calendar and

email and checking, you know, paying off, you know, bank statements and just whatever busyness I can be caught up in, I easily get in the habit of every time, you know, I get in the car, I check my phone. I get out of the car, I'm checking my phone, right? I check the time and then it's like, what notifications are here? It's always taking me out of the present and it's training my brain to not be here and be attentive.

And that impacts my whole family, right? My relationship with my wife and kids. That's one of the primary reasons. And so I sent out an email yesterday. I've been working on this for a while. sent out an email to my audience that I am getting rid of my smartphone.

Ania Hulsman (52:10.19)

Congratulations.

Jake Kastleman (52:12.718)

Thank you. It's like having a baby or something, right? It's such a big deal. People are like, you're doing How are you doing that? Well, thank you. It's I have the flip the like the dumb phone or the flip phone coming today. And I have I don't have it on right now, but I have a watch, right? A physical watch that's analog. Imagine that. You know, I have a paper, a pocket planner.

Ania Hulsman (52:17.933)

Big deal.

Jake Kastleman (52:37.57)

That I purchased. So I'm keeping this in my pocket rather than using my digital calendar and task list. I'm using this as my task list and planner. So I've taken all these steps and use and reading paper books. That's I've done audiobooks forever. And I'm not saying, you know, of course I'll still listen sometimes here and there, but I'm just all these things I've been exploring. I'm like, how could I actually set this up? Because I've thought about it for years. And I'm actually doing that.

And I've minimized the use of the smartphone so, so much. And I just have it. It's like a handheld computer now for the most part, right? And once I set up this flip phone, that'll be my phone. And then I can just have the smartphone like as a I need to use it as a camera and stuff like that. And so it's like, well, yeah, it's a camera and just won't have any more phone service.

Ania Hulsman (53:22.264)

Do lots of things to minimize it without getting rid of it. I I mean, I applaud you and I think that it's great what you're doing. But if someone listening to this isn't ready to get rid of their smartphone, you can turn off all of your notifications, which I've done, for example. I don't I don't have notifications apart actually, I have WhatsApp on there, but I don't also that's my maybe, maybe that's my little guilty pleasure is WhatsApp.

don't have any other notifications. And and I have it on silent the whole time. So it doesn't ping and I don't react to any pings. and you can put it on grayscale as well to make it actually really boring to look at.

Jake Kastleman (54:07.95)

I've I've done that. Yes, I've done that as well. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Ania Hulsman (54:12.182)

Ultimately getting rid of it, I think, is the ultimate peace of mind. so I think this is fantastic and I'd love to hear what else opens up for you as you go down this route. But one of the things that I wrote down earlier and right at the beginning of our conversation, it triggered a thought in me. I wrote down for vipassana. do you have you heard of that? Do you know what that is?

Jake Kastleman (54:36.654)

But well so it's that's something to do with yoga, correct vipassana. yeah, I don't know what it means specifically.

Ania Hulsman (54:41.708)

Pastanight is the ten ten day silent retreat, which is part of Eastern philosophy. I guess it could be related to yoga in some way. I don't exactly know the root, but I think it

Jake Kastleman (54:56.982)

I'm totally wrong. Yeah. It's I'm like thinking of like Shavasana as process.

Ania Hulsman (55:01.944)

Not Shavasana, which I also rate very highly. But Vipassana. So I've never done it myself, but it is on it's it's it's one of these things that I'm working my way up to. I know I have a lot of clients who've done it. And the idea is that you go into silence for ten days in a you know w where do monks live? In that place. In a monastery. There you go.

Jake Kastleman (55:27.689)

monastery.

Ania Hulsman (55:30.954)

Or it can be it it doesn't have to be a monastery. You can do it by yourself or you can go to a place where it's facilitated, right? And the people who I've spoken to, they say like the first three days are like sheer hell. You know, for three days you're being confronted with your brain is going crazy and you're talking yourself you're trying to talk yourself out of it and I'm gonna leave. This is awful, I've got pain, you know, I d I don't get enough to eat, you know.

Jake Kastleman (55:47.118)

I can only imagine.

Ania Hulsman (56:00.438)

Like every kind of justification for sabotaging yourself, comes through your mind. But if you get through those first three days, you know, in day four you start feeling free, you know, and your mind becomes free and you stop having this sort of need for stimulation. And and and the again the people who

People tend to then go back year on year because it's so liberating. And then it also like I think it again, I'm I might be a little I I don't know for how accurate I'm being here, but from my memory, which is not great, you then the the protocol is to then meditate twice a day for an hour to help maintain that state. and and there's you know

today, more than ever, I think this is a p this is a practice which helps to liberate us from this addiction to this constant, never ending stimulation that we're getting, whether that's through adverts, through, you know, through movies, Netflix, you know, these are on demand T V stations, the social media, texting, you know

People you used to we used to before the day of phones, you used to go round to somebody's house to have a chat to them. And then you'd have a proper conversation and not just sending memes to each other or cat videos. Yes. Which are funny, but very distracting.

Jake Kastleman (57:40.174)

I I love that you say this, Anya, because I you know, I think about and this is a gradual thing, right? For for me, it's been diminishing my use of the smartphone for years, right? And diminishing my use of television for years. I actually fasted TV for six months and it did so much for me mentally and emotionally, and feeling more focused and happier and

But what I found happening was I was still using my smartphone and I get in these cycles where I'm really, really good and I'm like, okay, I'm minimizing the use of it, I'm putting it away, and then I'll just I'll slowly but surely I'll pull it out again and I'm checking all those notifications and doing all that stuff again. And I'm and so this time I said, Look, I think I I I'm ready. Like I I guess for me it was I'm sick of this. I'm sick of this. I'm done with it. And so

So I chose to I chose to make that that change, right? Which we'll see how it goes. Obviously the phone's coming today. There could be an unforeseen issue and I'll n I hope to navigate that well, right? In in what inconveniences there might be. I know one of them is going to be, look, I am not going to T9 text. That's not happening. I don't know. So I actually have so

Ania Hulsman (58:58.072)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (58:59.936)

Okay. So T9 texting on a on a flip phone or a dumb phone, you have the ten, is it 10 keys? Yeah, 10 keys, right? One through nine and then a zero. And so you you text on that like we used to do forever ago. Yeah. Right. The ABC. Yeah. Yeah. So T n T nine is interpretive, but like it takes forever to send like a one sentence text. I'm like, I'm I'm not I'm not going to do that. And so

Ania Hulsman (59:13.643)

Yeah, yeah, I I

Jake Kastleman (59:26.444)

The phone I got, and I'm not promoted or anything by this, but Sunbeam is a phone company that has these dumb phones, right? It's part of what they sell. And they have a service called number link. And so so what that enables you to do is to text on any device. So my plan, who knows how it'll work out, but my plan is to sit down in like the morning and the evening and just text on my computer, right? So send out those couple of texts so I can still keep in touch with people that way.

But then other than that, if I'm out and about and somebody texts me, I'll probably just call them or just not get back to them. Right. And and some pe so people will be like, Why are you calling me right now? Like I already know people are gonna be weirded out by that. But we used to do that all the time.

Ania Hulsman (01:00:11.948)

Yeah, only only at the beginning as people get used to you in your new dumb phone reality. Yeah, they will People will get used to it. It's like when I became a vegetarian, you know, like all my family like, What? You you don't eat meat? I'm not a vegetarian anymore, by the way. But but when I went through that that's you don't eat meat? okay. And then

Do you still not eat meat? No. Okay. You know, and I d I I was a vegetarian for seven years. and people people got used to it. So that when I started eating meat again, they were totally weirded out by that.

Do eat meat, but you don't eat dairy. Now I'm confused.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:59.63)

You don't eat dairy now, is that right?

Ania Hulsman (01:01:03.884)

Don't eat dairy or gluten now, no. Or sugar, but

Jake Kastleman (01:01:07.154)

my gosh. Okay. This it's so funny the number of similarities. Cause so when it comes to addiction and recovery, one of the major changes I made was my diet as well. And that that impacted my ability to my mood, my focus, my cravings directly. I that correlation was major for me in cutting out dairy and just it depends on the person. For me, my body does not do well with it, right? And cutting out processed sugar, cutting out a lot of the processed foods.

It was huge.

Ania Hulsman (01:01:37.978)

I I I'm a huge advocate also of of that kind of dietary change because if you're getting brain fogs and IBS symptoms from what you're eating, you are going to look for comfort or some kind of stimulation, something to get your brain going. Of course, it's gonna be easier for you to develop an addiction to something. So

eat clean. Like I super clean. you know, it's like I I I I it it's super, super duper important to me, you know, and and it it makes huge difference. Huge difference. I w I I I would not have half the capacity I have right now if I to to do work and do the things that I do if I if I ate junk food or

Or any of the even like dairy is not necessarily a junk food, but it it was it was simply causing me problems. Yeah. You've talked about so many.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:43.978)

I am the same way. Right? I know. Isn't it amazing? No, I am I am so much the same so much the same way. So much the same way. So I think did you have something else you want to talk about? Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (01:02:53.656)

I w

wanted to jump back because you were talking I was talking earlier about how difficult I find accounting and how I have structures and print in place to support me. One of the things that I do is I have accountability. So my my husband is my accountability partner here and and he definitely knows how to make me feel like I have to do it right now or else. but one of the things

One of the things that I one of the things that I found to be hugely liberating, and I I never even realize what an impact it had on me, is is sensory stimulation. So one thing is light. You know, I'm very affected by light and I find that if I can if I if I have the right light, so I have a daylight lamp here, I l I love daylight, I can't

can't bear office strip lights. that really helps me. But also day ex daylight exposure earlier on in the day. It's another reason why I do my walks, by the way, why it's outside. I love that. Even terrible weather. It's really, really important. The other thing is music. So I put on and I was I I didn't really have a word for it, but there are these on Spotify hyper focus playlists.

where they play different types of music but with it's not pop music, it's not sing along music. It's it's more atmospheric music. Yep. And I find that I c it helps me to focus and stay focused and finish the job. and it will again, it's not going to be the same

Ania Hulsman (01:04:43.736)

for everybody. some people actually some ADHDers like music where that's which they can sing along to because there's a sort of multitasking to get get the get the job done, or some kind of background noise. But it's it's really important to to remember that there are these little hacks that you can do to help you do the difficult things when they need to get done. And it's and it's really important that you

employ them rather than again be a victim, I can't do it, my brain doesn't work, I can't you know, whatever. You can do anything you want. You just need better systems if and structures in in place, if if if things are not happening for you.

Jake Kastleman (01:05:29.72)

I I love that. I love that mentality 'cause I do think that there is a major message out there, right? And I know we're you're probably looking down at the time, you're like, How much longer are we gonna go? but I I

Ania Hulsman (01:05:42.422)

Episodes tend to go on for a bit longer as well.

Jake Kastleman (01:05:45.998)

So we'll we'll get there. Probably probably no more no more than 10 minutes, I I would imagine. probably about five or so. But I wanted to say that when it comes to the music, for for me, like I mean, I used to, my gosh, I used to listen to like heavy metal when I was in my late teen years. And I then I learned about the brain science of of that. And I know I'm gonna, you know.

make some people sad or angry here or whatever. But I learned about how classical music could help you focus. And also I love the atmospheric music. And I started making the shift. And it took me years to kind of get out of the high stimulation, like heavy metal and the rap and all this stuff. But I found that once I got used to the classical music and it didn't feel so terribly boring anymore, it really did help me focus. And it was I was able to be much more calm and at ease.

And I love the the ambiance, like you're saying, that other atmosphere. And I got into lo fi actually, just chill lo fi beats. That's so great for me for for focus. Brilliant. You know.

Ania Hulsman (01:06:57.218)

I use heavy metal sounds and I need to ramp myself up. If I need to get myself into gear for a phone call or for a coaching call and I'm my energy is a bit low, I will then use heavy metal music. I I I say heavy metal music. It's one specific thing that I love. There's the Wonder Woman theme tune by Hans Zimmer is really

Jake Kastleman (01:07:01.39)

Do you?

Jake Kastleman (01:07:24.638)

My gosh.

Ania Hulsman (01:07:26.574)

I that is what gets me going. To like if I if if I'm too l you know, if my vibe my energy is too low. So there is a time and a place for this. Definitely. Okay. you know, using it at the right moment.

Jake Kastleman (01:07:39.66)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:07:45.814)

That's cool. I I figured that you'd have, you know, like a more open attitude with it, Anya. That's that's good. That's good.

Ania Hulsman (01:07:52.622)

Very open to lots of things. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:07:55.662)

Well, hey, last question for you. unless there's something else you wanted to talk about that you had on your list and I'm stepping on your toes.

Ania Hulsman (01:08:04.545)

It's your podcast.

Jake Kastleman (01:08:06.951)

That's true. But I know you have a list. I know you're writing

Ania Hulsman (01:08:10.158)

I was noting things down which I thought were were were interesting, but I I think I think we've we've hit all the main points. There was one other thing that I wrote down here, actually. I'm just gonna quickly mention it. Is that okay?

Jake Kastleman (01:08:27.448)

Sure. Great. Do it, please.

Ania Hulsman (01:08:29.842)

you mentioned earlier on how when you first started your business you had all of these great ideas, but you couldn't break that down break them down into small enough chunks to get anything started.

Jake Kastleman (01:08:42.059)

Yes, hundred percent. Mm-hmm.

Ania Hulsman (01:08:43.698)

neurodivergent thing. So if anyone has ever struggled with that, you are not alone. That's all I wanted to say. And

Jake Kastleman (01:08:54.049)

Look, yeah, I love that actually. And I will say with that, I've I've learned how to work with my brain. And sometimes I forget. I easily forget that how how I function. But I was talking to my wife, like, I will get overwhelmed with clutter. I will look at a room that is messy, and so a lot of times part of me just said, there's just no way. I could never get it cleaned up. It'll never happen. It's too much. And my wife is like

She knows this about me and she was just like, It's so funny, Jake, that you can like get on calls one on one with people and like go deep into addictive issues with them. Like stuff stuff that's really serious, yet you look at a clouded room and you're like completely overwhelmed by it.

Ania Hulsman (01:09:37.222)

By the way, I have that same reaction to a cluttered room. When I have to like switch out toys and stuff, I'm like, okay, deep breath.

Jake Kastleman (01:09:46.862)

Right? Yeah, you're breathing. Yes, exactly. Like I need to like sit down and like write out like a handwritten list. Okay, pick up, you know, pick up magnetiles first and then grab the stuffed animals, like and like break it down. Cause if I can break it down into just small steps, then I can do it. And that's what I have to do with my work. And let if it's creative and I'm interested in it, the start can be like.

Slogging through molasses and it's really painful. But once I get going, it's like I'm gone. But with things that are mundane, right? That day to day, like dishes or stuff. I just look at it, I'm just like, my gosh, I I would rather die. I can't do it. And it's it well, what I do actually, one of my strategies is honestly, I kneel down and I pray and I say, please, God, help me to do this. And I actually center my intention on.

how it's gonna serve my family and the difference it's gonna make. And that really helps me a lot. Cause then there's a purpose behind it, right? Whereas it's just like a bunch of stupid dirty dishes versus a purpose.

Ania Hulsman (01:10:51.398)

For me the it's always it's always about purpose. I'm always connected to the why of of what I'm doing. And I think that's such a a an important thing that you bring up and I love that you have this spiritual practice that you bring in as well. I've I've I don't have a a spiritual belief myself. I I feel

connected to the universe, you know, and I I really love nature and energy that kind of energy and things. But what I wanted to say is that every client that I have ever coached who has a strong spiritual practice is so much easier to coach on account of the fact that they can lean on their practice and it's so supportive and it gives such a a a great grounding and foundation for transformation. And so

If someone has that, then then leverage it, you know, 'cause you're you know, you've got something really special there that you can use to help you become the person who who you want to be and deserve to be.

Jake Kastleman (01:11:59.978)

Yeah. I love that. It's it's been so central for me, my relationship with God and just that ability to pray and to get grounded and to reset my intention and get in touch with that, you know, that power in my life. to both to for recovery and for these challenges with focus and motivation and everything. It's it's yeah, it's huge. Well, that's actually, you know, my question was going to be about practical solutions, but we've discussed a ton and that's another one. So I think it's

I think it's great. I think we're in a good spot. so Anya, if people wanna work with you, I'm I'm gonna put links in the show notes, but where where should they go and what what do you do for people?

Ania Hulsman (01:12:42.262)

So I have my website, anyahorsman.com. It's an i h-l-s-m-an- dot com. I'm also on LinkedIn, spelt exactly the same. And what I do for people is is this

Jake Kastleman (01:13:00.371)

I know what you do for people's. I felt really I felt horrible when I said that. I know you one on one coach people. Do you do group coaching as well as it's all one on one, right? I

Ania Hulsman (01:13:08.118)

I I also do group coaching as well. And that's that's a I don't know if you do that as well, but that's such a beautiful experience because you have the the intelligence and the intentions of the collective and create a basically a like a family vibe where everybody is what's the right word? They're fighting for each other, you know, they're supporting each other in a really

passionate way and I I I love that. and and and also people tend to show up for each other more than they do for themselves. So that's that's a big that's a big benefit. I also do workshops and seminars, things like that.

Jake Kastleman (01:13:58.178)

Love it. Love it. So people can just go to your website if they want to discover all this and

Ania Hulsman (01:14:03.106)

That's true. And I'm always open to to a connection, a virtual coffee, and you can take it from there.

Jake Kastleman (01:14:15.598)

Thanks so much for coming on coming on, Anya. This was a personally just a wonderful experience for me. Such a lovely conversation. And I think it'll help so many people. So thank you.

Ania Hulsman (01:14:24.718)

Thank you.

Jake Kastleman (01:14:28.066)

Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor: follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. If you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn.

Or my free ebook, The Ten Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome porn addiction. And you can find them at NomorDesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building.

That recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.

Jake Kastleman (01:15:44.566)

Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,

Please dial nine one or go to your nearest emergency room.