Porn Addiction, Narcissism & the Crisis of Connection: Why Men Feel So Alone With Chuck DeGroat

When a man is struggling with porn addiction, it is easy to focus almost entirely on the behavior. How do I stop watching? How do I control the cravings? How do

I get more accountability? How do I make sure this does not happen again?

Those are important questions, but after years of working with men—and walking through addiction recovery in my own life—I have become convinced that another question is often just as important: What am I actually reaching for when I reach for porn?

Recently, I sat down with therapist, author, and professor Chuck DeGroat to talk about porn addiction, narcissism, loneliness, masculinity, and the crisis of connection among men. One of the most important ideas that emerged was that pornography can offer pseudo-connection: the sensation of intimacy without the vulnerability, patience, sacrifice, or mutuality of a real relationship.

That matters for recovery because sometimes you are not simply wanting porn too much. You are starving for something deeper, and pornography has become one way of reaching for it.

Does Porn Addiction Mean You're Narcissistic?

Because this conversation involves both narcissism and porn addiction, I want to clarify something immediately: having an addiction does not mean you have Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Chuck was careful about this distinction. Shame, inadequacy, self-protection, and a deep sense of “I am not enough” can show up in both narcissistic patterns and addictive patterns, but that does not make them the same thing.

This matters because labels can sometimes keep us from understanding what is actually happening. If I simply say, “I’m selfish. I’m disgusting. I’m just a narcissist,”

I may avoid the deeper work. A more useful question is: What is this behavior protecting me from feeling?

That question does not remove responsibility. If your actions have damaged trust, created secrecy, or violated your values, those things still need to be owned and repaired. But ownership works much better when it is based on truth than when it is based on contempt.

Porn Addiction and Loneliness: The Connection We Often Miss

One of the strongest themes in my conversation with Chuck was loneliness.

We live in what may be the most technologically connected period in human history. You can communicate with someone on the other side of the world almost instantly, have hundreds of social media connections, belong to online communities and group chats, and still feel profoundly alone.

Chuck raised a question that I think every man should sit with: Am I actually known?

Not, “Do people know my name?” Not even, “Do I have friends?” The deeper question is whether anyone knows what is happening inside you. Do they know

where you feel inadequate, what you fear, what hurts, what you are ashamed of, what you long for, or what is happening in your marriage?

This matters enormously when it comes to porn addiction and loneliness, because pornography can slide directly into that gap. It gives the nervous system something that resembles connection without the dangers of connection. No one can reject you. No one asks anything of you. No difficult conversation has to happen. You receive stimulation while remaining protected.

That may feel safer in the moment, but safety without intimacy eventually becomes isolation.

Porn Can Become a Relationship Replacement

One of the ideas I frequently teach at No More Desire is that pornography, smartphones, social media, gaming, and other high-stimulation technologies can begin occupying relational space in our lives.

A real relationship is unpredictable. Another person has needs, emotions, wounds, and limits. You have to communicate, listen, repair, and learn her story.

Pornography requires almost none of this. You can consume while giving nothing back, which can train us toward a distorted expectation of connection: I show up, you stimulate me, and I remain completely in control.

That is not intimacy. It is consumption wearing some of the clothing of intimacy.

Lasting recovery requires not only removing the false relationship, but building stronger real ones.

Why Soothing Is Not the Same as Emotional Regulation

This brings us to another distinction I believe is essential: soothing and regulation are not the same thing.

Porn, scrolling, food, gaming, shopping, work, and entertainment can all provide temporary relief from discomfort.

Soothing says, “Make this feeling go away.” Emotional regulation says, “I can experience this feeling without needing to escape from it.”

If every painful emotion becomes an emergency, escape will always feel necessary. But when I can feel loneliness, rejection, shame, or craving without immediately obeying it, I regain the ability to choose. The goal is not numbness; it is learning to remain present with yourself when life hurts.

Your Porn Craving May Be Telling You Something

This is where my own recovery changed dramatically.

Years ago, if I experienced a sexual craving, I interpreted it very simply: I want sex.

That was it. If someone had told me the craving could contain loneliness, sadness, inadequacy, a need for connection, or some deeper longing, I probably would have thought they were overcomplicating it.

But as I learned emotional regulation and became more aware of what was happening inside me, I began discovering something important. Sometimes I was not actually longing for porn. I was lonely. I wanted connection, relief, meaning, or simply to feel alive.

That does not mean every sexual desire is secretly an emotional problem. Sexual desire is real and good. But it does mean we should not assume we understand a craving simply because we know what it appears to want.

Cravings can become trailheads. They can show us what is happening deeper inside.

Look Beneath Porn Addiction for Worth, Belonging and Purpose

Chuck gave a framework during our conversation that I especially loved. He described three things men deeply need: worth, belonging, and purpose.

Worth asks, “Am I enough?” Belonging asks, “Am I known, loved, and part of something?” Purpose asks, “Does my life matter? Am I bringing something meaningful into the world?”

When those areas are chronically empty, a man can become increasingly vulnerable to substitutes. He may chase achievement because he does not feel enough, seek validation because he does not feel secure, or reach for pornography because it gives him intensity when his life feels emotionally flat.

Overcoming porn addiction therefore requires more than removing porn. Where does your sense of worth come from? Who really knows you? What meaningful responsibility are you carrying? What are you creating, serving, protecting, or contributing?

A life with no pornography but no belonging, purpose, or genuine connection can still leave a man vulnerable to escape.

Many Men Were Never Taught How to Become Men

This led Chuck and me into another issue that deserves more attention: male formation.

Chuck described four ingredients traditionally associated with healthy male initiation: safety, eldering, community, and sacred story. Safety means having a place where you are seen and known. Eldering means having a man further down the path who can say, “I’ve been there. Let me walk with you.” Community means having brothers beside you who know your struggle. A sacred story means having a larger understanding of who you are, why life includes suffering, where God is in the journey, and what kind of man you are becoming.

Many modern men are missing most or even all of these things.

If you were never taught how to process grief, tolerate rejection, ask for help, receive mentorship, or let another man see your weakness, it makes sense that you found other ways to regulate yourself. That does not excuse destructive behavior, but it helps us understand what needs to be rebuilt.

Recovery is also about intentionally building the formation you may never have received.

You Cannot Recover From Porn Addiction While Avoiding All Suffering

Our modern world gives us countless ways to avoid discomfort almost instantly. Bored? Grab your phone. Lonely? Scroll. Stressed? Watch something. Rejected? Escape.

The problem is that life does not stop producing uncomfortable emotions simply because we do not like them. There will always be disappointment, uncertainty, grief, sexual frustration, loneliness, anger, insecurity, boredom, and fear. If your recovery plan depends on eliminating those feelings, your recovery plan will eventually collapse.

Suffering does not automatically make us stronger. Pain can make us bitter or isolated when it is experienced without support or meaning. We need to learn to suffer within connection—within relationship, within a larger story, and, for those of us who are people of faith, within the presence and love of God.

Learning to suffer well means becoming more capable of staying present when life is uncomfortable while still allowing yourself to be supported.

A Practical Method for Porn Cravings: Move Toward the Real Need

So what can you actually do when a porn craving hits?

First, resist the urge to immediately treat the craving as an enemy that has to disappear. Instead, notice what is happening inside you and recognize that the craving may contain useful information about what your mind, body, or emotions are trying to manage.

Slow down enough to become aware of what you are experiencing physically and emotionally. Take a few slower breaths, notice where tension or energy is showing up in your body, and allow the feeling to exist without assuming that you need to obey it or make it go away.

Then investigate what happened before the craving emerged. Maybe you felt rejected by your wife, overlooked at work, left out by friends, overwhelmed by responsibility, bored, or simply exhausted. The craving may feel sexual on the surface, but underneath it you may discover loneliness, anxiety, sadness, resentment, inadequacy, or a need for comfort.

Ask yourself: What happened before this craving? What am I feeling right now? What does porn seem to be promising me? And what do I actually need?

Once you identify the real need, pursue something that can actually meet it. If you are lonely, reach toward another person. If you are exhausted, rest. If you are carrying shame, bring it into a safe relationship. If you feel purposeless, move toward meaningful work, service, creativity, or responsibility.

The goal is not merely to make the craving disappear, but to understand what it is trying to accomplish and lead yourself toward something better.

Don't Wait Until the Craving Is Overwhelming to Reach Out

The work of recovery often begins long before the craving becomes intense.

Imagine that a man discovers several of his friends got together without inviting him. An old story immediately begins running beneath the surface: They do not really want me around. I am always the one on the outside.

Those thoughts create sadness, anger, insecurity, or shame, but instead of acknowledging what happened, he brushes it off. Several hours later, he experiences a strong porn craving.

If he begins his recovery process only at that final moment, he has missed most of the trail. The trigger may never have been sexual. The trigger was rejection. The deeper wound was disconnection. The craving arrived later as a learned way of soothing the pain.

The pathway toward sobriety may have begun hours earlier with something as simple—and as difficult—as texting a trusted friend and saying, “Hey man, I’m having a rough night. Do you have a few minutes to talk?”

For many men, one of the hardest parts of recovery is learning to say, “I need you.” We have often been trained to believe that strength means carrying everything ourselves. Mature strength includes knowing when to reach outward.

Porn Addiction Recovery Is About Formation, Not Just Abstinence

This may be the biggest takeaway I want you to hear.

I absolutely want you to stop watching porn. Sobriety matters. Healthy boundaries matter. Accountability matters. There are times when you need concrete structures in place to protect the life you are trying to build.

But I do not want your entire recovery identity to become that of a man standing guard over himself every day, terrified that the slightest mistake means everything is falling apart again.

I want you to become more emotionally grounded so painful feelings no longer control your choices, more relationally connected so you have real people to turn toward when life becomes difficult, and more capable of sitting with disappointment, loneliness, and sexual desire without immediately needing to escape them.

I want you to become more honest, spiritually alive, responsible, present with your wife and children, engaged in meaningful work, and comfortable allowing other people to see what is actually happening inside you.

That is the difference between behavior modification and formation. Behavior modification asks, “How do I stop doing this thing?” Formation asks, “Who am I becoming as I learn to live differently?”

Both questions matter, but the second gives your recovery a much larger horizon.

Moving From Pseudo-Connection to Real Connection

Porn addiction often follows a painful cycle in which emotional pain leads to isolation, isolation leads to soothing, soothing leads toward pseudo-connection, and the aftermath produces shame that drives a man deeper into isolation.

Recovery begins turning that cycle in another direction. Pain can become an invitation to awareness. Awareness can lead to emotional regulation. Regulation can make room for vulnerability, and vulnerability can open the door to genuine connection. From that place, a man is much more capable of making choices that align with his values.

This happens through hundreds of small choices. You notice yourself isolating and call a friend. You feel ashamed and tell the truth sooner. You sit with anxiety long enough to understand it. You create more than you consume, serve, work, rest, and build friendships that go deeper than the surface.

Over time, you discover that pain can be survived without pornography, loneliness can become a signal to connect, and cravings can be listened to without being obeyed.

The Deeper Recovery From Porn Addiction

One of the great tragedies of addiction is that it often offers a counterfeit version of something genuinely good.

Pornography can offer the appearance of intimacy, but not the substance of being known. Social media can offer the appearance of community while leaving you emotionally alone. Endless entertainment can keep you occupied without giving your life meaning. Achievement can make you feel important without answering the deeper question of whether you believe you have worth.

When we understand addiction this way, recovery becomes much more than a process of subtraction.

There may be websites you cannot visit, applications you should delete, devices that need stronger boundaries, or environments you should avoid. But recovery is not ultimately about creating an emptier life. It is about creating a fuller one.

If pornography has become a counterfeit form of connection, recovery requires real connection. If it has become an escape from emotional pain, recovery requires emotional regulation. If it has become a source of intensity in an otherwise empty life, recovery requires meaningful challenge, creation, purpose, and better forms of pleasure. If it has become a hiding place for shame, recovery requires bringing more of yourself into truth.

The Man You're Becoming Matters More Than the Escape You're Leaving

I believe one reason men become discouraged in porn addiction recovery is that they spend so much time staring backward at what they are trying to leave that they never develop a compelling picture of the life they are moving toward.

If recovery is nothing more than resisting porn for the rest of your life, that can feel exhausting. But what if sobriety is one of the fruits of becoming a man whose life increasingly supports freedom?

A man who knows how to experience loneliness without abandoning himself. A man who has friends he can call when life hurts. A man who knows how to regulate rather than escape. A man who can face shame without allowing it to determine his identity. A man who has meaningful responsibility, healthy pleasure, spiritual depth, honest relationships, and something worth giving his life to.

That man does not merely have better self-control. He has a different life.

And this is one of the most hopeful truths about overcoming porn addiction: you do not have to spend the rest of your life fighting the exact same battle in the exact same way. You can grow. Your emotional capacity can expand. Your relationships can deepen. Your habits can change. Your spiritual life can become more embodied and real.

Connection Is Part of the Life You're Building

Chuck and I spent much of our conversation circling back to connection because the deeper we went, the more it seemed to sit underneath nearly everything else.

Real connection asks something different of us than pornography or technology. It asks us to remain present when things become uncomfortable, listen as much as we speak, risk rejection, admit when we need someone, and be honest before we have everything figured out.

So if you are trying to overcome porn addiction, keep strengthening your boundaries, learning your triggers, building healthier habits, and developing emotional regulation. But also look around at the life you are creating and ask whether you are becoming increasingly connected or increasingly alone.

Who really knows you? Who can you call when you feel rejected, ashamed, confused, or overwhelmed? Who is mentoring you? Who are you serving? Where are you experiencing meaningful purpose? And where are you allowing God to meet you in the parts of your life that are uncomfortable enough that you would normally prefer to escape them?

Those questions may seem much larger than pornography, and that is exactly the point. The deeper work of porn addiction recovery is not simply learning how to avoid one behavior. It is learning how to build a mindset and lifestyle in which escape becomes less necessary because your life increasingly contains the very things you were trying to find through addiction in the first place: connection, belonging, meaning, strength, love, purpose, peace, and the capacity to lead your desires instead of being led by them.

Connect with Dr. Chuck DeGroat

Get Chuck's book, Who You're Becoming

Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, the free online community, my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.

If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Learn more about the Academy.

If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Learn more about working 1-on-1 with Jake Kastleman.

Recommended Episodes:

Why So Many Men Struggle to Love, Connect, and Feel Their Emotions | The Hidden Roots of Addiction and Relationship Pain (With Dr. Eddie Capparucci)

The Deeper Roots of Porn Addiction: Trauma, Shame, and Emotional Pain (with Patrick Devosse)

From Porn to Peace | Recovery Mindset Practices to Stop Watching Porn

Full Transcript of Episode 159: Porn Addiction, Narcissism & the Crisis of Connection: Why Men Feel So Alone With Chuck DeGroat

Jake Kastleman (00:00.16)

Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.

Jake Kastleman (00:20.91)

We find ourselves in an age where addiction is so common that the question is no longer, are you addicted? But instead, how are you addicted? The opposite of addiction is connection. Pornography addiction thrives when we hunger for worth and belonging, and the modern age of men are starving. Do you ever feel that the world hasn't recovered since COVID? That people don't seem to see each other, greet each other, or connect like they used to? Does it sometimes feel like we're floating on our own island?

In some way that occasionally collide. Up to 87% of young adult males view porn regularly, and surveys from the rising generation of Gen Z indicate up to 67 to 80% report feeling lonely. I don't see this as a coincidence. Do you? What's wrong and how can we fix it? The technology you and I so constantly consume has trained our brains for a fast-paced life that lacks presence, focus, and connection.

We don't feel close because closeness requires a slow-paced life, which we don't have. We also live in an age where self-centeredness is celebrated and our ability to handle stress has been confiscated, handed over to devices that leave us empty. If you want to quit porn, you must shift these patterns, my friend, and that's exactly what Dr. Chuck DeGroat and I discuss in today's episode. Dr. DeGroat

Is a licensed therapist and founding executive director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. He's written six books with a seventh on its way, Who You're Becoming, launching October 2026. We discuss the findings and teachings of his upcoming book. Before we dive in, a reminder to download my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings, or sign up for my free workshop, the eighth.

keys to lose your desire for porn. These resources are your next step to get sober, and you'll find them at Nomordesire.com slash tools. And don't forget to like, rate, and follow the podcast so you can get help every single week. All right, let's get started.

Jake Kastleman (02:36.27)

Chuck, awesome to have you here. Thanks for coming on the show, man.

Chuck DeGroat (02:39.746)

Yeah, Jake, good to be with you.

Jake Kastleman (02:41.814)

Yeah, I'm excited for today's conversation. it's one that I try to be really sensitive in preparing for because we're gonna talk about both narcissism and pornography addiction and really addiction as a whole as well. And as we get started, I wanna just for all those who are listening to this episode, clarify that I'm not calling people with addictions narcissists, right? I'm someone who dealt has dealt with addiction in my own life as well, right? And I'm blessed to be in recovery.

But I really wanted to have this this discussion because you have so much insight into narcissism and insight into addiction and being able to discuss this in a way that I think will be really helpful and insightful for people, especially as spouses, so many spouses, when they they they have their their partners who are struggling with addiction, they say, he's so narcissistic or he's so self-centered, he's so selfish, all this. And

I think that there's a really compassionate perspective that we can take on that and one that will be helpful to the spouses too, I think. So thanks for coming on to talk about it. So you have a really awesome book coming out in October, right, twenty twenty six, called Who You're Becoming. And I just wanna say the subtitle too, because it's a good one. The s the slow and courageous work of cultivating character in a narcissistic age.

Right. Very cool. So that's a powerful subtitle. We're gonna start there. Can you can you give me a kind of give us a a scope of the term narcissistic age? Yeah. And really what we're looking at today and what's what you feel like is leading to that.

Chuck DeGroat (04:26.838)

Yeah, yeah. So when I think about a narcissistic age, it might be helpful even right at the top to say, you know, when we use a descriptor like narcissistic, we might not actually be talking about what we call narcissistic personality disorder, which is a we could talk more about that later if you'd like, but talking about something that is more organized around defense and self protection.

Narcissistic might just be a descriptor of a more performative culture, attention seeking, grandiose, power hungry, affirmation seeking, applause seeking kind of culture. And so and what are the

Jake Kastleman (05:14.478)

Can you say each of those one more time? 'Cause I think they're all so inside

Chuck DeGroat (05:17.958)

I I don't know if I can remember all those, but platform building, attention seeking, pause chasing, grandiosity seeking. Yeah, yeah. And so I think these these kinds of descriptors that that get at what I often call the evolution of narcissism. I wrote this book called When Narcissism Comes to Church and I was when I when I first wrote that, honestly I was I'd been working with so many Christian leaders and I was encouraged

Jake Kastleman (05:23.926)

As grandiose

Chuck DeGroat (05:47.75)

by the publisher to write a book that was accessible to churches and about what I had seen in Christian leadership. I've done hundreds, if not thousands, of assessments of church planters. And by the way, I was I was a pastor. I planted a small church back in the day. So I'm not simply speaking as a therapist, right? I'm speaking as someone who's been a pastor, a Christian leader, but I've expanded that scope of narcissistic because I do think.

that as narcissism is evolving, the way we're we're chasing attention, applause, power is is is expanding. And even those of us who are therapists, I mean, I I often talk about the the growing what I call vulnerability F-A-U-X that is characteristic of what we're seeing in today's narcissism, which is to say that ev even those of us in the the therapy

Therapeutic spaces, trauma-informed spaces, coaching spaces, who are increasingly apt to be grasping after attention, applause, platform, and and more. so it's it's a complicated world that we're living in. And I think I I think it has something to do with this evolving need to sort of perform, to please, to grab for attention and more.

Jake Kastleman (07:12.322)

Chuck, that makes perfect sense perfect sense to me. I think that we see a lot of I like you said phonerability. I actually thought phony, but faux f

Chuck DeGroat (07:22.904)

F A U X. Instead of vulnerability, vulnerability. it's the performance of vulnerability, right? Putting ourselves out there in a way that we we maybe maybe the person even thinks that they're being vulnerable, but it's an overexposure in a sense. there's a whole lot more we could talk about there because I think that there's there's there's something to that idea that Henry Nowen talked about thirty years ago, but

Yeah, we're we're we're projecting too much of ourselves out into the world that there are no longer places of of real, you know, privacy and even secrecy in the best sense of the word. You know, I know in in the world of addiction, secrecy is not a helpful posture, right? But I think but I think that when I think about vulnerability, I'm thinking about an overexposure, putting too much of ourselves out there.

Jake Kastleman (08:18.322)

Yes. I when I read this in your book, because I I read a bit of it and I I really thought that hit home to something that I've seen myself and never knew how to refer to in some ways, but that it's it's performed vulnerability, right? And it's am I correct in saying it's in vogue to be to talk about my problems and tell people how.

How hard my life is and how, you know, broken I am. Is that is that what you're referring to?

Chuck DeGroat (08:53.164)

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I I mean, I I on the one hand, you know, having been in in the spiritual abuse conversations of the last twenty years, you know, there are a lot of folks who'd say, if I didn't share what was going on in my life, on Twitter back in the day, you know, there there's no way that there would have been maybe help for me and accountability for my pastor. I I

So on the one hand, there's there's that piece, you know, I don't want to hold space for that. I think on the other, there's this sense that if it's not put on social media, it's not real, you know, at some level. And what whatever happened to our capacity to have the kinds of intimate conversations, is it okay for us to simply share it over a cup of coffee or a glass of wine or whatever it might be, and not to put it on social media, right?

Jake Kastleman (09:49.942)

Yeah, I I think we get caught up in this everybody has to know, or even taking pictures of everything that we do, right? And and and putting our thoughts and our experiences out there online so that everyone can see it. And it's as you're saying, it's I mean, it makes me think of in scripture when Christ says, they they have their reward, right? When you do your alms before men versus before God, right? And that's a bit of a bit of a different

Teaching there, but it makes me think of that. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. Yeah. And so we have a reward when we do that, which would not be kind of the the healing and the human connection. Now it's the the the accolades, the the the status, right, that you're from people seeing.

Chuck DeGroat (10:39.34)

It's a pseudo connection. Right. Right. I think that, you know, I I think when we have this conversation around pornography addiction, we're talking about pseudoconnection. I think many addictions, if not all addictions, are forms of pseudo connection. And I think this is our latest, right? And so and it's so addictive, I think, for for young people in particular who find their way to TikTok pretty early on or YouTube videos or whatever it might be.

In fact, we found some old videos of my daughters who got in front of our old Mac computer back in the day. I've got two adult daughters who are married. But these videos that they used to make and they used to what I was seeing was they'd walk up to the camera and they were sort of like, look at me, I'm in the camera right now. And they'd put on their wigs and they'd sing songs or you know, whatever they do. Like, yeah, their generation grew up in front of the camera to some degree. They don't have TikTok videos out there or anything like that. But

This is what they grew up with.

Jake Kastleman (11:38.988)

Yeah. Yeah. So what begins to happen to us then, especially when it relates to addiction, where we think we're connecting, we're having this these pseudo-connections, especially through social media, scrolling reels, posting online. What is happening to our brains and happening to us emotionally when we do that that really is playing into addiction or things like pornography addiction and our susceptibility to that?

Chuck DeGroat (12:06.242)

Yeah, I mean, I think at some level it's a form of soothing, right? And there's a neurochemical, what I call dopamine surge of glory that comes with it that I think, in the short run feels very, very powerful. And we've all experienced it. I mean, it's not just that guy who who knows that. We all know that dopamine surge of glory. but it's a soothing that we long for, right? There's something about being seen, about noticed.

Five people, ten people, twenty people, fifty people have liked my post, you know. Or that that sense of I remember back in this goes back to late nineties, early two thousands, there was a study that came out about pornography where the men men who were interviewed, more often than not said that what they were looking for was the eye contact. You know, they were looking to meet the eyes of the person looking back. And so I do think that there's something that we're longing for.

in the form of connection here, albeit a form of connection that that that is that leaves us feeling more lonely, more impoverished, you know, more empty, more ashamed. And so yeah, well it well it has that immediate hit. It doesn't have that lasting, sort of durable substance of connection that really has the capacity to fuel us

for deeper intimacy in our relationships and sobriety ultimately. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (13:38.102)

Yes, exactly. It one of the things that I talk to guys about is how we and you actually mentioned this, we build a relationship to technology. We build a relationship to social media and pornography. And we it trains our brain in a sense to perceive relationships that way that I can be in front of someone and they will feed me all this entertainment or all this stimulation and I need to give absolutely nothing back.

for that. And and do you think so, in kind of defining what we're looking at today and let's actually talk a little bit more about narcissistic personality disorder, what it is and what it's not. And where you feel like people are kind of falling on the spectrum and how kind of how that's that's happening these days.

Chuck DeGroat (14:31.82)

Well, you know, when we when we talk about narcissistic personality disorder, narcissism, even addictions, I mean, I d I do think there is a sense in which we could say at the base there is a refusal to live within the confines of human limitations. There's a resistance to human limitation at some level, right? Like I want to transcend my humanity. I don't I don't like the confines of my humanness. and

I think

Jake Kastleman (15:02.654)

What and and and some people would think of that as like a striving for something greater, but you're saying that that's toxic, right? That it's it's it's to a very toxic level. Is that is that perfectionistic perfectionism really feeding into the narcissistic

Chuck DeGroat (15:16.652)

There are a lot of isms that play into that, right? That that I think this is the this is the what the serpent enticed Adam and Eve with in Genesis chapter three, right? there is a sense in which what they were being drawn to is to transcend their their limitations at some level. it's boiled down to pride by some or power by others, but I think.

I think what the serpent put in front of Adam and Eve was some sense of you're not enough the way you were created to be. And so you're going to have to go looking for that enoughness somewhere else. And and so we've been living that story ever since. And so I do think that there are these ways then today, and there have always been ways of doing this. I mean, the Greek philosophers have ways had ways of doing this. The early church fathers have ways of naming patterns of sin.

Today we have particular kinds of names that we put around patterns that we see. And one of those names is narcissistic personality disorder. now that underneath there, there's a fundamental sense of of not enoughness. but that same not enoughness as is at the core of every addict, right? Is at the core of every perfectionist. But the organization of narcissistic personality disorder looks different, right?

So this is why we don't call every addict narcissistic personality disorder, because when we're talking about NPD, we're talking about a very protected and defended personality. We're talking about someone who felt such a deep sense of shame that they unwittingly, unconsciously developed this defensive mechanism, this protective system, and they live highly guarded lives. And on the front side of the defenses is their shiny persona.

And the and the underside is a whole lot of shame, a whole lot of inadequacy, a whole lot of insecurity.

Jake Kastleman (17:20.897)

Yes. And there's so many similarities there, like you say, with perfectionism and with addiction. Cause I I think addiction is this guard, right? And underneath that we always find shame, this not enoughness, like you're saying, the sense that I don't match up, either I'm not enough or I'm too much, right? I don't fit in. I don't belong. So you're saying both, you know, narcissistic personalities see, and I understand this from studying a studying a little bit about it, nowhere near where what what you've done, but

but I think that was shocking for me because I thought being narcissistic was all about just, they're selfish and they're self centered and they're prideful and they think too much of themselves. But the more I understood about it, it's not about that. That's the covering, much as an addiction is a covering. Yeah. Right.

Chuck DeGroat (18:09.522)

yeah, this is I mean, it's interesting 'cause people say, Well, they're ultimately selfish and I'll say, No, it's it's actually someone who's radically disconnected from himself. You know? And so and

Jake Kastleman (18:23.298)

It's almost the opposite in some in some sense.

Chuck DeGroat (18:26.646)

Right, but they're living out of, you know, we often call it a false self or a contingent self or part of themselves that looks grandiose or put together or perfectionistic, or we were talking about this beforehand, but I talk about the nine faces of narcissism because it can look more it can look more perfectionistic in some. It could look more grandiose and achievement oriented in others, it could look very intellectualistic and kind of snooty in some, you know, it could look very powerful in others. And so

there are various shapes and personalities, but we don't, I don't define narcissistic personality disorder by a particular personality. I just I define it by what we call the psychological organization or the adaptive organization of the person. Is the person highly defended? In other words, when I'm when I'm doing some assessment, let's just say we had someone who is sexually addicted and someone who's narcissistic personality disorder. When I'm doing

When I'm doing some some interviewing and assessment, what we find with someone who's narcissistic personality disorder is a highly defensive organization and someone who underneath is profoundly ashamed. Now, if you've worked with addiction, you might say, Well, there's something very similar there, but but the shape of it looks very different, actually.

Jake Kastleman (19:48.45)

Yeah. Let's let's talk about more of the of the shape looking different. Yeah. Between those.

Chuck DeGroat (19:54.018)

Well, so I think one w addiction, like narcissism, there are different shapes and sizes of addiction as well, too, right? And so

Jake Kastleman (20:03.765)

Vary varying levels and varying

Chuck DeGroat (20:05.838)

different forms of it. What I would say is maybe this is a clear way of saying it. every person who is diagnosably narcissistic personality disorder is addicted, but not every addict is narcissistic personality disorder. the soothing that the addict seeks in the midst of his shame is can look like a thousand different things.

But the person with narcissistic personality disorder grew up in a world where they they they sort of had to create this this this fortress that they live within, that they hide within, and and and they posture themselves within the world as as someone who

Would have to stay aggressive, if that makes sense. And I see something a little bit different with addiction. It's not like I've got to, it's like eat or be eaten. And that's what we see with narcissism. It's a sort of like fortress that's built and this aggressive posture that's maintained for the sake of guarding that little boy, that ashamed little boy inside. And there's not quite that aggressiveness that we see in addiction. Soothing, yes.

Shame on the underside, yes, but not that level of it's either I I live in a dog eat dog world and it's eat or be eaten. Does that make sense?

Jake Kastleman (21:43.842)

Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And and I think that it's so it's so hard because whether we struggle with addiction or we struggle with more kind of self-centeredness or we which isn't necessarily narcissism, we can't see it, right? And until s someone who's close to us or kind of has that in or or or has authority or something kind of opens up our minds or we begin asking questions, we begin

Sort of because it's just the lens through which we see life, right? Yeah. And I I think you had said on something I another podcast episode I listened to you on, you said, if someone is curious and asking the question, Well, do I struggle with narcissism? They probably don't have narcissistic personality disorder, right? They may struggle with some level of selfishness or other issues or whatever that is, but it's not, they wouldn't ask that.

question. Yeah. Right.

Chuck DeGroat (22:43.354)

Yeah. The interesting evolution here is one of the things I'm noticing, and I catch myself saying that nowadays because one of the things I'm noticing as as well vulnerability evolves is that some of the guys that I'm working with n now say that preemptively. Or ask some of that question some of the questions that I'd I'd expect someone who wasn't narcissistic to ask sort of preemptively, like they're learning, you know, we are we're evolving to be more and more self-protected. So

It's imp how that's shaping up.

Jake Kastleman (23:15.926)

Yes. So let's talk a little bit more. I want to go into kind of more of our society at large, some of our habits, the things that are happening. you know, maybe down to our our personal individual lives, but also our communities that are kind of really fueling addiction, fueling more of just general self centeredness or this narcissistic these narcissistic kind of patterns.

So let's let's let's talk more about what that looks like. And then I want to go into kind of male initiation and rites of passage to everybody talk about that too. But let's start with more the general scope what we're looking at.

Chuck DeGroat (23:58.774)

So what we're looking at more broadly in society today and why why we're seeing this sort of growing and evolving narcissism. Yeah. I think I think what's interesting about that is I I think there are a number of things that we can point to. So let's just name one that I think is significant for both the narcissism conversation and the addiction conversation, and that's loneliness. The loneliness, you know, something that

Jake Kastleman (24:08.073)

Yes.

Chuck DeGroat (24:28.39)

Joe Biden's Surgeon General wrote about in depth something that I I don't think many of us would disagree with w wherever you are in the political spectrum, some sense that as our society is becoming more polarized and fragmented, as our as as we're becoming more global society, as we're becoming a more online society where our relationships take forms like this, I've never met you, Jake, you know, and yet we're talking about

Substantial things, right? Yeah. There's this growing sense that even though we've got this feeling of connection, I can walk away from this and and not have the kind of substance of connection that my heart longs for, right? So and and there's something about that that you know, it's Johan Hari that says the opposite of addiction is connection, right? there's something about that that's that that it's

I think at one level is convincing us that I'm I am really connected. Look, I've got all these relationships. I've got these people I know around the world. I'm a gamer. I've got all these, I connect to all these different kinds of people every day. I'm on Facebook. I've got all these friends. I do Substack. Look at the different engagements that I have. And yet when the lights go out, perhaps even literally the power goes off. Who who really knows us? And so what it comes down to is.

Are are we known? and I think we're as as the the the the kind of cheap substitute of of virtual connection that we have today is jeopardizing that at some level. Not anti-media. I love doing this kind of stuff. I'm engaged across social media, but what I am aware of is that there's a deep hunger to be known that isn't satiated by likes on social media. I find that with Brian and John and

Kyle, when we slow down, we sit together, we're face to face, and they look at me and they say, Hey, you look tired right now, man. What's going on? And I I can't I can't turn the screen off, right? Like I'm sitting with them and there's a certain vulnerability to that. Yeah, I really am. It's been hard lately, guys. That's that's where we're known, right? So yeah, there are many, many more ways to be disconnected, I might say.

Chuck DeGroat (26:53.248)

I I I might say and i in ways that it feels like we're we're connected and that's that's the lie at some level.

Jake Kastleman (27:02.51)

Quick pause for just a couple minutes. There are a lot of men who feel discouraged by some of the recovery programs or therapy services out there. Maybe you are this way as well. Tell me if this sounds familiar to you. You show up to a one-on-one session. Someone asks you how your week went. You talk about your problems. Maybe you talk about your relapses and perhaps get a bit of advice or a listening ear, but you don't really feel like you are being given any sound tools to use throughout the week, throughout each day. This is not.

To say that these aren't well-meaning professionals or that they don't do a lot of good for you, but to overcome porn, you need a sound structure. Many of the men in my program who've tried traditional therapy routes or other services find something different in this program. I provide a step-by-step structure that guides you in building habits and tools for your recovery. I provide you with 10 to 15 minute daily practices to build emotional resilience and work through cravings, an entire online course library that I worked on for years.

With short lessons and applied exercises. In the program, you will learn practices derived from CBT, IFS, neuroscience, nutritional psychology, faith philosophy, and I help you apply each teaching to your everyday life through reflections, worksheets, and instructions. It's all about that application, guys. For guys who are looking for a higher level of support, I provide weekly one-on-one coaching to build personalized plans for your specific situation.

I also instruct you in meditation practices in session to work through cravings and emotions and to train yourself to do this so that when they come up, you'll know what to do. Many men find this extremely helpful. In addition to all this, you don't do things alone. You are part of a private online community and meet with a weekly group to connect with other men who are on the same journey. It's a really awesome culture. At No More Desire, you're not just getting sober. You're designing a life that you love. So to learn more about the program,

Go to nomore desire.com slash coaching. All right, back to the show. Do you think that there's a certain level of like a a a protection, a lack of need to actually be fully, fully vulnerable? We can we make it halfway there, right, in connecting through technology, but we're we feel more safe at the same time. I don't have to share my whole self with you. I don't have to be fully seen. Yeah. Right. And that feels safer for us.

Chuck DeGroat (29:28.566)

feel safer. And that's that's why I call it vulnerability, because I I really do believe that as much as people say I, you know, social media has given me a place to be really vulnerable or really myself. In fact, I've gone on podcasts, Jake, and you didn't do this by the way, but I've gone on podcasts where, you know, five minutes before we start, someone has said, Hey, you seem like the kind of person that's really deep and vulnerable. And I just want to go to the deep and vulnerable places with you today.

I'll say no. Actually, that's not what I do in these spaces. I'm I'm vulnerable with John, with Kyle, with Brian, with my wife Sarah, my daughters, with their husbands. in these spaces, I can be open about things that I've struggled with, reflections that I have about the world. But it's that that cheapened form of vulnerability that I think is

Is what what strikes me as a significant part of the problem today, that John O'Donohue, the late poet and priest, called it a neon consciousness. There's too much exposure. There's too much light. And we're not known. Imagine having an intimate conversation under the lights of you know, a room in your hospital where someone does so get surgery done, right? Like those kinds of bright hospital lights versus can't.

You sitting with your wi you're married, right? Right. sitting with your wife over candlelight with cup of coffee or a glass of wine. That creates a more intimate conversation, right? I think what John O'Donohue is getting at is we're putting too much out there and we're calling it transparency, honesty, vulnerability. And what it's actually jeopardizing is the substance of our actual relationships on the ground.

or actual intimacies.

Jake Kastleman (31:27.732)

Yeah. Cause I I think we're not learning how to kind of be quiet and silent in our in our minds and have a quiet space to express and talk b because it feels so much more stimulating and exciting, right? On a surface level to expose ourselves to thousands of people at once and to have these

conversations that are interesting and the people can comment on and they can give all the likes and things like that. And and it just completely transforms our relationship to human connection in general.

Chuck DeGroat (32:08.43)

And that's what it's doing at a neurological level too, right? It's it's changing our brains. and so I mean, I think there's a cost to that, right? So we've we've got this kind of connection perhaps online or in these varying spaces. And then we get home and there's a sense that we don't know how to connect at a deep level with our spouse, you know. we're used to quick and cheap connections here and there. It's much tougher, as you said, to sit in silence. and

And I I think on that point to sit in a kind of contemplative silence before God and to experience, as Rowan Williams calls it, the loving gaze of God. You know, the that sense that we've got to sit quietly and wait patiently. And so we're just not as apt to wait, to sit, to listen, to pursue, to linger in the ways that we once did. And it's costly.

Jake Kastleman (33:05.258)

Yes. And it makes me think of technology and the noise. It it also makes me think of AI. Obviously that it's this is a huge thing, right? Over the last several years and it's grown so much. I know for me I've I've had this experience of I was using it a lot, right? And I just thought it was so amazing. You can type in these prompts and it gives you all this information and gives you all this stuff. And it's it's it's a cool tool.

But more so over the last several months, I've I've just realized this is so overstimulating. This is giving me such fast answers, and this is actually diminishing my ability to, as you're saying, be silent, be quiet, to gain inspiration, to listen to God. And I I really needed to take take back my exposure to AI and my use of it sh big time. Yeah. So that I could.

start to feel all that again. Yeah.

Chuck DeGroat (34:02.55)

Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's it. And so I mean, I think that's just yet one new iteration of all of this, right? And and the dangerous thing there is that that that it talks back to us, that we can have a conversation with it. and I I use it for a variety of different things, but I sat with a guy yesterday who confessed that he had generated over a thousand pages of of content asking AI about his particular

psychological disorder and what it means and his family of origin. And he was like, I was doing it because it's cheaper than therapy and it's faster. And it was giving me, you know, output that was very validating. And I needed it. And then I realized I'm utterly alone in this. And I think that's again, this feels like there's something that keeps coming up in our conversation, right? That we end up utterly alone. And that's

That's the birthplace of addiction. That's the birthplace of trauma. That's the birthplace of narcissistic personality when we feel utterly alone. And it's like, I've got to find a way to make it in the world. that's where this begins. That's the source.

Jake Kastleman (35:17.89)

Yes. And I think we'll explore a few of those ideas more. I really want to dive into what you feel like is hitting men, 'cause that's you know, men and their spouses listen to this podcast most of all. And what is hitting men so hard these days with reference to masculinity, healthy masculinity, how guys are showing up and what's really happening to us in this the the when it comes to kind of more of the narcissism, the self centeredness, the addiction.

Chuck DeGroat (35:46.902)

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, I what I find in various men's spaces when I teach in those places, I'll often talk about the image of God as worth, belonging, and purpose. That sense of worth. that God has designed me for something really, really good, you know, that sense of belonging that I that there are there are people, there are relationships that where I'm known, that sense of purpose, that there's there's meaning, that there's vocation that I can be engaged in, right?

And invariably men will say, for one, two or three, and generally two or three of them, often th all three, yeah, they're I I don't feel I don't feel that. I don't feel like I'm worth it. I don't feel like I'm enough, you know? and so I'm chasing and I'm pursuing, but it's never enough. I don't feel like I belong. I I'm a part of my church and I go to small group, but I don't really feel like that's a place where I'm known. And purpose, like I do

You know, I do insurance. What's that? You know, that's not ministry or so you know, but they haven't been discipled into a deep sense of vocation, right? That there's something that they unique they uniquely offer the world just by virtue of their being in the world, right? And so, and there's there's an ache and there are too few elders. and too few elders, but too few pathways, what I call like intentional pathways to

formation, the formation of men. I'm I'll be 56 in a few days. And I've thought about well, thank you. Yeah. So when I was turning 50, I was looking for men who are close to 70, and I was asking them, so tell me about 50 to 70. And Jake, the number of really painful conversations I had thinking, well, here's a man that I think gets it.

Jake Kastleman (37:21.742)

Happy birthday.

Chuck DeGroat (37:42.424)

Here's a man that I think will have something to offer. the number of really painful conversations where it became about, I honestly, I don't know. honestly, I don't have the retirement that I thought. Honestly, I just want to golf more. honestly, I I just I I wake up every day wondering if I have a legacy, and I I don't think I do. You know, it was really painful. But what I discovered was those men weren't apprenticed into.

masculinity into manhood, whatever you might want to call it, right? Into their worth, belonging, and purpose. And so yeah, I I think it's a I it's a there's something missing in our churches, a deep discipleship of men and men's hearts in a unique way. I don't think the answer is more men's ministries or more men's retreats or, you know, guys going out and

And and drinking and throwing axes or whatever we do on men's retreats nowadays, or they're not even called retreats anymore. Now they're called men's advances, right? Because you need more masculine language. I I I do wonder I I think it would be terrifying, but I've I've you know, in the spaces that I'm in, I usually invite men into a triad and say, I'm going to invite you to reflect on this particular question that invites them to some honesty.

And honestly, it's terrifying for a lot of men because it's like, I have to disclose how empty it feels when I walk in the door every evening to a spouse I'm not even sure likes me anymore. I think she loves me, but I don't think she likes me into a job where I just don't feel like I'm offering something meaningful to the world. Yeah. It's painful, man.

Jake Kastleman (39:28.962)

Yes. I think that there are a lot of people that resonate with that. Yeah. One of your chapters in your book is called Ripened. and you talk about you mentioned the term elders. in there you talk about Michael Gur Gurion. I hope I'm saying his name right. Yeah. the four things for male initiation safety, eldering, community, and sacred story. Yeah. So

what happens to us as men when one or more of those is absent? Yeah. and how does this relate to the development of addiction?

Chuck DeGroat (40:05.952)

Yeah. Well, often it's like an O for four for men. And and that's another piece of that sort of tragic story that I was just narrating, right? most most well, let's just go through all four very briefly. Safety, some some kind of community where a man felt held, seen, known, where there was that imprint of of connection, you know, that where their dad's really deeply invested in them, you know, there's some community where they really felt like they belonged.

Jake Kastleman (40:16.931)

Yeah.

Chuck DeGroat (40:35.89)

that's that core sense of safety, eldering that there was a man a generation ahead who took him under his wing and said, I will sit with you. I've been there, let me tell you about it. A community. This is the fellowship. If you think of Lord of the Rings, right? This is your your Sam Gamgee. This is these are the men who are walk alongside you. They're they're your peers. They're like, Yeah, I'm with you. I feel that too. And a sacred story, which is to say,

well, I'm you know, I I'm a Christian, so I'm partial to the Christian story, obviously, but the way it's told sometimes is not particularly helpful, but a story that makes sense of this journey that we're on in a way that's compelling, that speaks to our suffering and what God does in and through it. And I think what most men might say is that, yeah, maybe there's a little bit of that story because I go to church on Sundays, but

Still, I'm not entirely sure that it speaks to this maturation that you're talking about, Chuck. Like how a man really grows up. I I think some men will say, yeah, I experienced a I had a good family. but I I I I I didn't really particularly feel known by my dad. I think a lot of men will say I had a I had a youth pastor who took some interest in me, but I'm not sure when when I first began struggling with addiction.

I wasn't gonna tell that dude about it, you know, because I think I I I'd get in trouble. a community, yeah, I had some peers, but you know, our our conversation was kind of more like locker room chatter and it wasn't real really the kind of conversation where we were knowing and being known. And so if you think about that, it's we're ripe for addiction, right? Because we're largely, once again, we largely feel like, Am I enough? Do I belong?

Do I have a purpose in the world? is God doing anything with this? And is, you know, is is spirituality, does it really just boil down to going to church on Sundays and getting some sort of rah-rah sermon and some like three worship songs and moving on with my day? How does it engage my life and the formation of a life? And so, you know, the in the churches where I've served, in particular in San Francisco, I created a fellows program where we were doing a lot of this work and sort of apprenticing of the soul, but

Chuck DeGroat (43:04.204)

I find that it's really rare. This kind of formation is really rare. And it's I've I think this is why addiction is such an epidemic among men. And we're we're just we don't really talk about there are the there are the things there are the obvious like sort of church taboo issues like pornography, right? But then there are the kinds of the everyday addictions, the scrolling.

the soothing through, you know, three, four, five shows at night, those kinds of things that we don't really see as particularly addictive, but you know, they're they're coming from the same source of aloneness.

Jake Kastleman (43:42.306)

Yes. Yeah. And I think so I think far more of us have those addictions than we anticipate. Far, far more. Because when you talk about what's happened to our food, and food can be an addiction in general. Obviously gluttony's always been a thing. But our food that's highly processed and empty and not doesn't give our our bodies the nutrition that it needs. So we just eat and eat and eat and keep going and

And then the ways that we'll numb out with shopping or just being on our smartphones in general and texts and emails and all these things to distract us from the emptiness that we're feeling inside to whatever degree, right? Yeah.

Chuck DeGroat (44:25.55)

So it's it's it's not if we're addicted, it's how are you addicted, what ways are you addicted? We're all soothing in in some way, right? And and what dimensions do does that ad addiction take on, you know, for for many of us there are sort of comorbid addictions, right? And so you're right, it's it's the food, it's the so where do I start, you know, because I think in a lot of addiction work, it as you know, it becomes about accountability for the one thing.

You know, let's just get you to stop looking at pornography. And so we're tackling the behavior rather than the worth belonging and purpose underneath. Right. And so I that's a much longer conversation, obviously.

Jake Kastleman (45:11.404)

Yes, there are there are actually two questions that are on my mind. One, and this you only mentioned this for a second, but so many of those who listen to this podcast are Christian. And you said that we tell the story of Christ maybe sometimes in an unhelpful way. I think is that how you is that how you said? Yeah, I suppose. I know I'm picking that out. Yeah. I am actually really interested in that. I wonder if we might talk about that for a minute. Yeah. What how you feel like it's unhelpful in ways and how it can be more helpful in us understanding that story.

Chuck DeGroat (45:40.96)

Yeah. Well, I mean, I I think in some ways, the Christianity of of the first century and of Jesus what wh why would we even call it Christianity? The way of Jesus of the first century has become the Christendom of Constantine, which is to say we've largely lost the way of Jesus, what Henry Now would call the way of downward mobility, as Christians were more interested in preserving power, reputation.

Platform. This has been sort of the way of of Christianity, institutionalized Christianity for many, many years. no wonder it's become what it's become. and no wonder larger and larger churches are sw swallowing up smaller and smaller churches, you know. the way of Jesus is something that's lived. and it's lived within the context of community. It's not mass manufactured, it's not commodified, right? It's not

it's not branded. It's a way of life that invites us to is the beatitudes invite us to brokenness, mourning, meekness, a new hunger and a new thirst, mercy, wholeness, peacemaking, suffering, right? It's the fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, so on, right? And it's the way of Jesus, which is the way of weakness. It's Philippians 2.

Jesus being in very nature God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but became a servant. and so that way of discipleship, that way of downward mobility, I think is profound for men. I think it could reshape the way we think of the masculine journey. And certainly that was what we what they got at in initiatory traditions. There was a pathway of suffering that was required. But today, I

I just don't sense that men are apprenticed in that in the context of community. They're not invited along this way that leads to brokenness, mourning, meekness, new hunger and new thirst, the way of the Beatitudes, right? And so that's a obviously a much larger conversation. What would that look like for discipleship and formation today? How would that s sort of reanimate?

Chuck DeGroat (48:03.52)

the way we think about church and men's ministry and small groups and things like that. But I I think it's a worthwhile conversation. It's certainly one that I've had in a variety of contexts and and that I've seen churches do some things with. But I think you you see small examples here and there.

Jake Kastleman (48:22.19)

Well, and it I I love that. I think there are so many meaningful things that you said there. And obviously, yes, you said it justifies much larger conversation, but downward mobility, by that you mean going is essentially downward into to deeper and deeper service. Am I getting that correct correct?

Chuck DeGroat (48:40.376)

Yeah. Well, the way I would put it is this. I think in these initiatory traditions, men were, because there was a context of safety, eldering, community, and a sacred story, men were invited on a journey. this is what Jo Joseph Campbell called the hero's journey. If anyone has watched the Odyssey, this is what the Odyssey is. It's a hero's journey. If anyone knows the story of the Lord of the Rings, it's a hero's journey. It's Sam and Frodo leaving the Shire, right? Going on a journey where they're

Necessarily going to suffer. They're going to be brought to the very ends of themselves, their limitations, but they're going to have to discover new resources within them that they couldn't manufacture or strategize on their own. And so I think what what's happening is men aren't being intentionally apprenticed on that kind of journey, right? There's no longer that kind of initiatory journey.

And so boys, what what we grow up with is dads who are distant, who've not been apprenticed themselves. And so there's that born-in disconnection, education systems that don't know this, that turn it into performance, right? Who gets the best grades, who has the most friends. And so we're sort of socialized into something that to me looks very, very different than what I might call the socialization of the Christian story.

Or the way the cruciform way of Jesus, this way of downward mobility. and what we learn when we go on that journey with Jesus is that we have limitations, that we'll fail. that we're gonna, you know, that we're gonna that we're gonna find ourselves in places where we confront our our our own shame, our own limitations, our own insecurity, that we're gonna have to rely on others, that we're gonna have to ask for what we need, that we're gonna discover a hidden strength within us.

that we can't manufacture on our own, that we'll discover that Jesus was there all along, that as Augustine says, God is more near to us than we are to ourselves. but when when you've been sort of privileged or handed things to you, you know, without going on that journey of of some necessary suffering, you don't experience that.

Jake Kastleman (50:51.874)

Yes. And the way you refer to suffering I think is extremely meaningful and we're gonna we're gonna talk about that. But there there were cultures and there was a time in history, at least in some cultures, where this was done well, you feel like. Is that

Chuck DeGroat (51:03.756)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think in fits and starts in a various spaces and places and times and cultures. I mean, scripture itself gives us the model and in a sense, the path. Think about the wilderness journey, forty years in a wilderness as a furnace of transformation, as I call it, right? The belly of the whale and Jonah. you think of Hannah and Mary and all sorts of different examples. Paul

After Damascus wrote, he didn't just become an evangelist. He went into the desert, you know, three years in deep formation, un unlearning, you know, un being undone and redone in the desert, right? And so

Jake Kastleman (51:48.44)

That's amazing. I I didn't know that about Paul's story. Yeah actually. That's yeah, it's it's very powerful. Right. Yeah. Which is particularly problematic. So yes. Let's talk let's talk about suffering because I think when you talk about the 40 years in the wilderness of the Israelites, a lot of us can look at that and be like, how miserable and so terrible. And as I was studying that this year

Chuck DeGroat (51:54.008)

Yeah. Skip over, right? Yeah.

Chuck DeGroat (52:01.942)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (52:18.218)

it really occurred to me and maybe I'm way behind the game, but but I was just understanding the significance of God had taken them out of Egypt. But as peop and I think you probably you wrote a book on this. This is you

Chuck DeGroat (52:30.262)

first verse is on the wilderness story. Yeah. It's called Leaving Egypt. Finding God in the Wilderness Places. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (52:35.946)

Right. Because so you'd have way more to say on this. But they they Egypt had not left them, right? They had not yet learned

Chuck DeGroat (52:43.374)

They left Egypt, but Egypt was still in them.

Jake Kastleman (52:45.846)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so so I I I won't emphasize that so much, but but really our relationship to suffering is what I wanna focus on next because we can see it these days as such a negative thing. It's when I suffer, this is a bad thing, it should stop and I should go back to experiencing pleasant things and things that feel good. What do you think

How can we relate to suffering in a way that is healthier and that leads to our growth rather than bitterness and negativity?

Chuck DeGroat (53:21.774)

Because I think there there's exactly what you just mentioned, that that sense that we want to avoid suffering at all costs. But I think in certain Christian spaces too, there's there can be in in other spaces as well, su suffering for suffering's sake. Like you just have to go through. and God actually ordains suffering for you to go through. And I I don't think that suffering alone matures us. And this is, you know, kind of my my take on what Paul says in Romans, you know, but I

I do think that the the context there when Paul is talking about suffering and how s suffering produces character is that it's it's suffering in the context of being known by God, being loved by God, being held by God. If you look at the language being justified by God, there's there's a sense in which when you are safely held in the loving arms of God, when you are safely held in the embrace of of a relationship of that elder in your life,

You can you know, Frodo and Sam can go out because they know that Ga Gandalf is with them at some level, you know. and so if I know, you know, this season is going to be really hard, but my mentor is in my life and he's walking with me and he's checking in. There I'm I'm s I'm held safely. I know that there's some sense in which God is is with me even as I'm going through this really profound season.

So it's not just suffering. It's not suffering alone that changes us. It's suffering held in a larger story, in a larger embrace, I would say, to make it more experiential and more personal, the embrace of God. And so, so yeah, we we end up avoiding and avoiding suffering because we don't know how to walk through it. and that's what I see. I see people, Christians very uncomfortable with the

Just a little bit of suffering in their lives. They don't know what to do with it, right? and this is why we hide. I think this even when our addictions begin, we don't know there's no space, there's no permission to say, Can I just tell you about what's going on right now? Some of the websites that I've been to. You know, there's no space for that. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (55:39.214)

Right. Yes. And I think I believe it was Jay Stringer in his book Unwanted. It may have been somewhere else that I heard this, but he said we don't know how to suffer well. Yeah. And many of us don't know how to do that well. And it's it's one of the reasons that I I work so heavily with guys on emotional regulation and how to relate to painful emotions. Yeah. We have to be really good at that because they're never gonna go away.

Chuck DeGroat (55:49.315)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (56:07.256)

They're always gonna be there no matter what we do. Yeah. Right.

Chuck DeGroat (56:10.744)

So we in instead of sitting with the discomfort of I'm feeling I'll I'll just channel someone I was sitting with recently who has felt particularly abandoned by some friends recently and it's really easy for him to go to porn. But part of my invitation is for him to sit in that discomfort, but not alone and not in some sort of morbid way, but hey, I'm I'm I'm with you, I see you. Let's talk about regulation.

Which is different than soothing, self soothing, right? And let's let's pursue a deeper regulation that is available to you in and with God and in your own body. What he's beginning to discover to his surprise is that in the midst of that discomfort or when those strong feelings of no one loves me and I'm completely on my own come up, there's something deeper available to him, right? So, as Gaber Mate says about addiction, addiction is not the problem, it's an a attempt to solve the problem.

Right. it's a t an attempt to soothe the wound at some level. And so once once guys discover that there's a deeper joy available, intimacy, connection, belonging, it's like, why would I go back to that well? this is so much better, right?

Jake Kastleman (57:28.628)

Exactly. I I know for me, I the more that I learned how to open up to and be present with painful emotions, the more that I could feel the joyful ones. Yeah. I love that. I think it's I think it is equal. Yes. We have to be willing to feel the pain, to feel the joy. Yeah.

Chuck DeGroat (57:45.678)

That's exactly it. and I I think that's a missing that's often a missing component of more behavioral approaches to addiction that I think probably a lot of your guys who are listening have been to account accountability groups and other things. And there may be some who are listening for the first time who are surprised by that, you know. What does Jake what does he mean when he talks about regulation?

Jake Kastleman (58:10.047)

Right. Yes.

Chuck DeGroat (58:11.182)

Sitting with discomfort. That doesn't feel good. I just want to stop doing it, Jake. Come on.

Jake Kastleman (58:16.362)

Right, exactly. Yeah. And I and when someone began to teach me how to actually open up when a craving comes, rather than to fight or to push away or to strike myself to open up to it and and literally just be a witness for and welcoming in that feeling and being like, okay, here it is. Yeah. And what does it feel like? What am I experiencing?

People teaching me to actually feel it in my body. That was completely revolutionary. I was like, feel it on my body, what do you mean? All my emotions in my head. What is the what are talking about? Yeah. Right? Looks like you've grabbed a book.

Chuck DeGroat (58:51.736)

was trying to I I it'd be impossible to find the passage from yours Jack by C.S. Lewis. But C.S. Lewis writes this in a letter decades ago where he says, he says, I I began to experience that familiar feeling. And and the reader, it's up to the reader's imagination to fill in the blank, but the familiar sensation was likely sexual. And but he let the longing go more deep instead of shutting it down, turning off the water spigot.

In a sense he he was like, So what is that longing? What's going on in my heart right now and how can I open to it exactly what you're saying? Yes, Lewis said it seventy years ago.

Jake Kastleman (59:31.016)

Yeah, because sometimes it's it's again, sexual energy is it's it's a longing for connection, it's a longing for purpose, it's a longing to pursue, it's a drive. It's it's really far more broad and general and powerful than I think we're often taught. Like the term libido, or we think of as as a sexual thing, but it's it's far more broad in that it is it's to drive, to pursue, to connect.

to find purpose, to find meaning. And that when I initially learned that, I was like, that's dumb. I don't this was 15 years ago or whatever it was. I was like, no, when I feel a craving, it's just for sex and that's all it is. And I don't know what you're talking about. And it took me years of exploring and experiencing and understanding and learning to emotionally regulate and getting deeper in touch with these things. Be like, my gosh, I am feeling lonely right now. I am not, I do not need

I'm feeling lonely and I'm feeling a longing for connection. Yes. You know? Yeah, that's

Chuck DeGroat (01:00:32.576)

And can I open up to that? I I don't know if you're familiar with Sam Jolman's work, the sex talk, yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:36.872)

yeah. Yeah, I just talked to Sam a couple weeks ago. I'm hoping to have him on my podcast soon, but he's he's awesome. I Sam.

Chuck DeGroat (01:00:44.786)

I've known him for 20 years. He's a beautiful human being. And I think what he's what he's doing is he's doing this very thing. He's casting a larger vision. It's not about saying no. It's about saying yes to something much bigger. But it gets back to our earlier conversation, the loneliness that we're experiencing today. Can we, in the midst of that, you know, can can a man instead of like throwing more men's ministry activities at a man, which I I I don't deny can be, you know.

gives a man something to do or be helpful or maybe a place to find a relationship and go deeper. But I think in the midst of that, is that a place where I can say, Hey Jake, I something's going on right now and I need you. That I think for a lot of men feels really, really scary. You know, like I yes don't necessarily think that that's being cultivated in deep ways in men's spaces. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:01:37.602)

Yes, I agree. Well, to kind of wrap up here, Chuck, in this process to develop our character, yeah, to mature as men, what are a few steps that we can begin taking? Yeah.

Chuck DeGroat (01:01:53.927)

well, so I think probably if people have been listening the whole time, they sense that it's not as the quick and easy as as you might think, right? And it's not simply about behavior modification. It is about experiencing safety, community. that really creates the the conditions. I would I would call these the nervous system conditions, actually, for a person to grow and change.

I think that when we're struggling, we're often in a kind of survival mode. And one one of the reasons I like what you're doing, Jake, is that you're you're teaching men that the the necessary shift is out of survival into a place of regulation, into a place of of connection. And from that place, now, while you notice I just breathed. I breathe more easier, more easy when I'm there. I'm more spacious when I'm there.

And from that place, connected to others, I I'm in a better place to make choices that for for what I call the right kind of attention in an attention seeking world, for the right kind of connection. Attention seeking isn't the problem. Attention seeking is a a longing for connection, but it's the right kind of connection, right? And so now, instead of just surviving another day of

feeling pulled to pornography, I'm like, man, dad, there is just a such a deep ache today, such a pain around, you know, that the the fact that I didn't get invited with the guys out to the Odyssey movie the other night, you know? Right. Right. And who may maybe I'll call Kyle and just say, hey, I'm feeling kind of down. Can we grab dinner or do you have a chance to talk

And knowing that he's someone that's going to pursue my heart and engage vulnerably, that's that's the way forward to deep character change. It's not simply behavior change, although I want behaviors to change just as much as anyone else, right? But the kind of lasting change that we're talking about, the kind of lasting sobriety is actually in connection. So John John Harry was right. The opposite of addiction is connection.

Chuck DeGroat (01:04:15.928)

That's the antidote in a sense. And so the invitation to your listeners is, you know, where where will they find that place of greater vulnerability, that place where they can share their needs, that place where they can connect, that place where they can say, I don't feel like I'm enough. I don't feel like I belong. I don't feel like any anything I'm doing is offering much meaning to the world. that's a really good first step.

Jake Kastleman (01:04:41.376)

I love that. Yeah. Thank you, Chuck. If somebody wants to work with you, connect with you, check out your books, et cetera, where where should they go?

Chuck DeGroat (01:04:50.966)

my personal website is Chuckdegro.net. my my collaborative of practitioners who do this kind of work is called the Soulcare Collaborative. Soulcare Collaborative dot com. I'm on most of the socials. I refuse to do TikTok, but

Jake Kastleman (01:05:09.855)

I can't blame you much for that.

Chuck DeGroat (01:05:11.426)

Substack, Instagram, Facebook. And if people are curious about the the new book, there's an opportunity to even be a part of the launch team. Follow me on Facebook. You learn more about that there and they can get early access to to the book and and some other ways of connecting to the conversation.

Jake Kastleman (01:05:29.26)

I love that. Well, the portions that I read of the book were very insightful, very powerful. So I'm sure it will be excellent. and I'll be purchasing it myself when it launches. So

Chuck DeGroat (01:05:40.846)

Thanks for all the good work you're doing too, cultivating these conversations and sitting with men in deeper kinds of conversations, Jake.

Jake Kastleman (01:05:48.526)

Thanks, Chuck. Yeah. Appreciate you coming on, man.

Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. And if you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Corn.

For my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome porn addiction. And you can find them at NomorDesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building.

that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.

Jake Kastleman (01:07:06.752)

Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or a desire to harm others,

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