Men, Emotions, and Porn Addiction: Reclaiming Masculinity Without Shame

For years, I believed that overcoming porn addiction meant becoming tougher, more disciplined, more “manly.”

I thought if I could just stop feeling weak, if I could stop feeling at all, I’d finally be free.

Recently, I sat down with Rich Savoy—a longtime coach, leader with Husband Material, and someone who has spent years helping men understand their inner world—to have a deep, honest conversation about emotions, masculinity, and porn addiction. What unfolded wasn’t a discussion about techniques or behavior modification. It was a conversation about the inner life of men, and why most recovery efforts fail because they never address it.

What I didn’t understand then is what I know now: porn addiction isn’t primarily a sexual problem. It’s an emotional one. And the way most men are taught to relate to their emotions is quietly sabotaging their recovery.

In this article, I want to walk you through a deeper, more honest path—one that doesn’t rely on shame, white-knuckling, or pretending you’re someone you’re not.

This is about emotional intelligence, masculinity without shame, and learning how to work with your inner world instead of fighting it.

This isn’t soft work. It’s leadership work. And for many men, it’s the missing piece in porn addiction recovery.

Porn Addiction Recovery Isn’t About Sex—It’s About Pain

One of the most important shifts I’ve seen—both in my own recovery and in the men I coach—is this realization:

Most men don’t turn to porn because they're feeling desire. They turn to porn because they’re hurting.

Loneliness. Shame. Anxiety. Rejection. Powerlessness. Emotional exhaustion. The quiet belief that “I’m not enough.”

From a neuroscience perspective, porn acts as a fast-acting regulator of the nervous system. It floods the brain with dopamine, temporarily numbing emotional pain and creating a sense of relief or control. But like any quick-fix coping mechanism, the relief is short-lived. What follows is often shame, self-criticism, and deeper emotional withdrawal.

Psychologically, this is why willpower alone fails. You’re trying to overpower a system that’s trying to protect you.

And spiritually, it creates a fractured inner life—one part of you trying to be “good,” another part desperately trying to survive.

True healing begins when we stop asking, “How do I stop watching porn?”And start asking, “What pain am I trying to escape?”

The Man Box: How Emotional Suppression Fuels Porn Addiction

Most men were raised inside what I call the man box.

Don’t cry. Don’t be weak. Handle it yourself. Power through.

On the surface, this appears to be a strength. But under the surface, it creates emotional suppression, a state where painful emotions are buried rather than processed.

Those emotions don’t disappear. They go underground.

They show up later as anxiety, irritability, numbness, perfectionism, and yes, porn addiction.

Here’s the hard truth: emotional avoidance doesn’t make you strong. It makes you fragile.

Real masculinity isn’t about shutting emotions down. It’s about having the capacity to stay present with them without collapsing or escaping.

Men who build emotional intelligence don’t feel less. They feel more—and they’re stronger because of it.

There Are No “Negative Emotions”—Only Unheard Ones

One of the most subtle ways men stay stuck is by labeling emotions as “bad” or “negative.”

That language creates judgment. And judgment creates internal war.

Sadness isn’t bad. Fear isn’t weak. Shame isn’t proof you’re broken.

These emotions are signals—dashboard lights on the nervous system—telling you something needs attention.

When you respond with curiosity instead of condemnation, something shifts. You stop fighting yourself. And when the inner war ends, the addiction loses fuel.

This is a core principle in emotional healing from porn addiction:

Emotions don’t need to be eliminated. They need to be understood.

Why Fighting Yourself Keeps You Addicted

One of the most powerful frameworks for understanding porn addiction comes from Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.

IFS teaches that the mind is made up of different “parts,” each with a role. When it comes to addiction, three types show up consistently:

• Exiles – wounded parts carrying pain, shame, fear, or grief

• Managers – controlling parts trying to keep life together through perfectionism, self-criticism, or spiritual performance

• Firefighters – emergency responders that shut pain down fast (porn, scrolling, substances, overworking)

When a man relapses, it’s usually because a firefighter part steps in to numb an exile that feels overwhelming.

Porn isn’t the enemy—it’s the symptom.

When you attack the firefighter with shame and anger, the system doesn’t heal.

It tightens. Pressure increases. And eventually, the cycle repeats.

Recovery accelerates when you stop asking, “What’s wrong with me?”And start asking, “What is this part trying to protect me from?”

The Porn Part Isn’t Broken—It’s Protective

This might challenge you, but it’s essential:

There are no bad parts.

The part of you that turns to porn isn’t evil or weak. It’s trying to help you regulate pain in the only way it knows how.

When men slow down and actually listen to this part—without judgment—it often reveals deeper intentions:

• “I’m trying to help you feel calm.”

• “I’m trying to help you feel wanted.”

• “I’m trying to help you escape the pressure.”

• “I just want you to feel okay.”

That changes everything.

Instead of trying to kill this part, you begin to redeem and retrain it. You help it step out of an extreme role and reconnect with its core gifts—connection, presence, creativity, vitality, intimacy.

This is how parts work for addiction, actually,

in real life.

Updating the Past: How Old Pain Keeps Running the Present

One of the most powerful moments I’ve witnessed in IFS-based recovery is when a man realizes that a part of him is stuck in the past.

A part that still believes, “I’m weak.”Or “I’m unwanted.”Or “I don’t belong.”

That belief might have been formed at age ten—but it’s still shaping behavior at thirty-five.

Healing happens when you gently update that part with the truth of your present life.

You don’t argue with it. You don’t shame it. You speak to it with calm authority and compassion.

“This is what my life looks like now. This is who loves me now. You don’t have to carry this alone anymore.”

As the nervous system learns that the danger has passed, the pressure driving porn addiction begins to release.

Redefining Masculinity Without Shame

Masculinity isn’t emotional shutdown.

Masculinity is emotional capacity.

It’s the ability to stay present with discomfort instead of escaping it. To lead yourself with clarity instead of force. To feel deeply without losing your center.

Men who reclaim masculinity without shame don’t become passive or soft. They become grounded, steady, and trustworthy—to themselves and others.

This is the kind of masculinity that sustains recovery.

The Iceberg: Persona vs. Real Self

Most men live above the waterline.

They project competence, strength, faith, and success. But beneath the surface is a very different story—fear, insecurity, loneliness, grief.

Maintaining a persona is exhausting. And eventually, something has to give.

Porn addiction is often where the pressure leaks out.

Healing begins when a man creates one or two spaces where he doesn’t have to perform—where he can be real, honest, and human without judgment.

Why Community Matters (and How to Choose It Wisely)

Not all vulnerability is healing.

Oversharing with unsafe people creates more wounds. Total isolation creates despair.

The middle path is a small, confidential circle—men who can listen without fixing, judging, or minimizing.

If you share honestly and are met with control, shame, or spiritual bypassing, that’s not safety. That’s another manager part reacting to pain.

Recovery thrives in attuned connection.

The Hard Truth: You’ll Have to Feel What You’ve Been Avoiding

There’s no way around this.

If you want to heal porn addiction at the root, you’ll have to build the capacity to sit with painful emotions.

Not forever. Not alone. But long enough for them to be heard. This is where real emotional intelligence is built.

And over time, what once felt unbearable becomes manageable—and eventually, meaningful.

A Simple Starting Point

You don’t need to overhaul your life overnight.

Start here:

Notice what you feel—without fixing it. Name the part that’s activated. Breathe. Stay present. Get curious. Choose connection over isolation.

This is how men stop fighting themselves—and start healing.

Final Thoughts

Porn addiction recovery isn’t about becoming someone else.

It’s about becoming more fully yourself—integrated, grounded, emotionally alive.

This is masculinity without shame.

And it’s the path that actually works.

If you want help walking it, you don’t have to do it alone.

Explore more of Rich Savoy's work at: https://www.husbandmaterial.com/

Free Resources:

Grab my Free eBook and Free Workshop for more strategies to overcome porn addiction, rewire your brain, and rebuild your life.

Recommended Episodes: 

Doing vs. Being: The Missing Key to Porn Recovery

Mastering Your Emotions to Recover from Porn, Bond with Your Wife, and Defuse Relational Conflict

Male Sexual Abuse, Shame, and Porn Addiction: A Recovery Roadmap with Dr. Doug Carpenter

Full Transcription of Episode 124: Men, Emotions, and Porn Addiction: Reclaiming Masculinity Without Shame

Jake Kastleman (00:01.095)

Today I'm sitting down with Rich Savoy, a seasoned leader and mentor with Global Leadership Partners and Husband Material. He teaches men how to connect with their inner world and live with real authenticity. Rich, welcome to the show, my friend.

Rich Savoy (00:19.456)

Thanks for having me.

Jake Kastleman (00:20.869)

Yes, and I should actually say what you do for husband material. You are the treasurer. Am I saying that correctly or no?

Rich Savoy (00:27.608)

Yeah, so I'm a coach. I'm on the board. But I also coach men have been doing that for a number of years, both within Husmaterial and other organizations. I also am the director for small groups. So what that means is if you go through Husmaterial Academy, which is a six month program to help you work through a process of outgrowing porn, you can be involved with

a group of four or three to four other guys and I actually helped set up those groups and actually lead the group leaders.

Jake Kastleman (01:06.105)

awesome. It's awesome. And it's an amazing organization. So I love what you guys do over there, man. So start by telling people rich a bit about your background, and what sparked your interest in emotional intelligence and IFS.

Rich Savoy (01:24.408)

Yeah, so that it really is interesting because my interest came from a place of hiding from my emotions and really growing up in an environment with my father where the message from my father was don't express emotions, especially don't express vulnerable emotions. I really felt like I grew up in a home where my father tried to push me into a man box that

He created what he thought a man should be and I really just didn't fit well there. I actually was an emotional kid and wanted kind of a desire to be more vulnerable and express emotions. So one of the messages that I got from dad was men don't cry, boys don't cry. So the message there was to be masculine or to be a man, you had to stuff emotions.

especially emotions that would make you seem more vulnerable. So you have to really lead with showing your masculinity and not show things that were vulnerable.

Jake Kastleman (02:35.427)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think there are so many of us that can relate to that. That's been one of the primary messages for a long, long time about being a man. And so this really brought you into, know, eventually you came in touch with the fact that, you know, I do feel emotions deeply. I do want to talk about them. I do want to understand them. When did that shift start to occur for you? What kind of sparked that?

Rich Savoy (03:04.75)

So at one point I was seeing a Christian counselor and I was working through some issues that I had and that counselor said to me, Rich, I don't think you really have any awareness of difficult and hard emotions in your life and don't communicate that in any way. And I said to him, well, why would I want to focus on negative emotions? I want to focus on just things that are positive.

He laughed at me. I'm pretty sure counselors aren't supposed to laugh at you when they're working with you. But that happened a number of years ago. And it's really been at that point, we had an emotional wheel that was in the room. And when I was trying to deal with things that I was feeling inside, I would have to look at the wheel to try to figure out what emotion I might actually be experiencing.

Jake Kastleman (03:39.801)

Yeah.

Rich Savoy (04:02.198)

Since then, I've spent a lot of time exploring my emotions. I've viewed, come to view my emotions and awareness emotions as a strength and even almost a superpower. If I understand my emotions and I understand the emotions of people going on around me, we call that emotional intelligence. And I do speak on that as a part of a speaker with global leadership partners that it...

It's a real strength to be able to do that and not a weakness for a man.

Jake Kastleman (04:35.589)

Yes, 100%. What you just said about what you told that counselor is I've heard that from numerous men and it's true. We have this idea, there was someone who explained it to me this way a while back. said, painful emotion, actually, I don't know if it was you that said this, to be honest. Painful emotion makes us as men, it makes us feel weak and I can't feel weakness as a man is the belief.

Right? So I'll just hide from it. I'll stuff it down. I'll get rid of it. And that way I won't be weak, but unfortunately it does the exact opposite. Like you're saying, right now I'm just carrying that everywhere I go and I feel fragile consistently. Whereas when I work with clientele, I'm instructing them to dive deeply and fully pay full attention to the painful emotion and dive straight into it. So we can understand it.

and find compassion for yourself. And that is so counterintuitive. It's the exact opposite of what many of us have been trained to do and trained ourselves to do. How do you see that? Why do you think we are so, you know, we use phrases like bad, bad emotions, negative emotions, bad feelings, whereas I would say painful emotions is more accurate. But why do you think we're so prone towards that in our society?

Rich Savoy (06:04.194)

Yeah. And Jake, it's a good question. I used to use the word and say, have these negative emotions. And, but then I began to realize that that's really kind of a judgment on the emotion. Right. And so we have emotions that maybe are more difficult emotions and emotions that are more pleasant or positive, but all emotions really could have have purpose in our lives. Right. And even emotions that are difficult.

Jake Kastleman (06:17.97)

Right.

Rich Savoy (06:34.816)

if we look at them at curiosity with curiosity, it's telling us something about what's going on inside of us. And I think in particular as men, there's maybe a persona of the tough macho guy. And you know, it's the person that's not affected by anything in the world around us. And so the reality is whether we acknowledge it or not, we have emotions inside of us.

We can pretend that those emotions are not there. And when we pretend that difficult motions are not there, they tend to pop up in our lives in unwanted ways that often take us to behaviors and activities that we, where we really don't want to go. And husband material, we'll call that your act out behavior. that's the place you're going to, which says we explore those things. We're, you're often trying to escape.

painful or difficult emotions in your life.

Jake Kastleman (07:38.267)

Yeah, I explain it. I always say the emotion of a part has to be felt. It has to be expressed that the energy of that part of your mind needs to be in your life in some way. And so either I need to consciously choose to bring it into my life in a way that's purposeful and that I want, or it can default and manifest on its own, right? By whatever means necessary. And often that's going to be

destructive and harmful, I because it feels ignored, right? It's like, hear what I am saying. I'm signaling to you that I'm here, right? So when you talk about emotional intelligence through an IFS lens, and we're kind of speaking that lens a bit here, what does that actually look like inside a man who's been struggling with pornography? What shifts internally when he stops fighting himself?

as so many of us have done. And instead he starts to get curious about these parts of his mind and his emotions. What does that look like? How does he do that?

Rich Savoy (08:47.886)

Yeah. So Jake, that I think when we bring in internal family systems into this concept, it is a great way of helping guys or anybody. But as I work with other men, I really understand what's going on the side of us, the different parts that we might have within us. So in husband material, we use inner child work where we're kind of connected with the wounded boy within us and understanding what's going on with

with the woundedness of that part of us. But internal family systems kind of expands it into a broader number of parts. So I may be experiencing more than one thing inside. so we may, a number of people listening may think about, I have lots of different feelings and emotions inside of me and it feels like chaos. so...

what we begin to do is to explore what's really going on with those emotions. So internal family systems, IFS allows us to begin to take a look at those different parts of us one at a time and maybe explore the emotion or the part that's most troubled or an IFS terminology burdened. So a part that is burdened, we can spend some time with

Sometimes we can be very judgmental, like many people have a part that's a self-critic. And that part is criticizing ourselves about things we've done wrong, or boy, I wish I would have done it differently. And we go back and remember a conversation and keep replaying it and say, I wish I would have said this instead of this. And so there's a self-critic part there that is playing a role that is coming out.

IFS parts may be just emotions. It may be sadness, know, it may be anxiety. It may be powerlessness. I feel powerless and IFS allows me to say, well, part of me feels powerless. Why at the same time, another part of me feels excited or, and I can recognize that

Rich Savoy (11:10.658)

Both of those things are true in my life because they're different parts that are playing out in my system. So we use IFS and when I'm working with guys, I use IFS as a way to help them better instead of ignoring emotions and ignoring those wounded parts, exploring with curiosity and compassion what is really going on with that part of me.

Jake Kastleman (11:37.841)

And so if a man is addicted to porn, what is your view on kind of the typical patterns emotionally that are going on within him and why a part keeps seeking out pornography?

Rich Savoy (11:54.371)

Yeah, so within the IFS framework, so for IFS coaches or counselors, we'll talk about there are exile parts and there are manager parts and manager parts can be a firefighter or a more proactive manager part. So an exile part is a part maybe that's wounded, feeling significant pain.

Maybe we've exiled that part from our lives or we don't want to deal with that part. We want to just pretend it's not there. The pain is there. We want to pretend because we're men. So we're not going to feel that pain or at least we're not going to tell people about that.

Jake Kastleman (12:41.607)

And it gets very unconscious, right? I mean, it's buried so deep down in there that we don't recognize that pain is there. We've spent years covering it, right?

Rich Savoy (12:52.782)

Yeah. And sometimes it's another part that's covering up the pain that is just, we're not able to bear at a certain point in our lives. So at a certain point, a part has kind of worked to kind of cover that up. But as we do work towards healing, we begin to take a deeper look at what's really going on underneath the surface. pornography is a firefighter part.

So what happens with a firefighter, a firefighter, when there's a fire, you need to go and put that fire out quickly. so if I don't wanna deal with the pain and the pain is becoming overwhelming, even if I may not be acknowledging it, you feel it inside, you're just off. And then what I find is men will go to that firefighter, I'm gonna go to pornography to escape the pain.

we often will talk about that as the pacifier. Just when a baby's crying and needs attention, a parent may give the baby a pacifier and that maybe feels comforting for the baby. So porn gives us comfort for some period of time, but that comfort is short lived, right? Because most guys, they indulge and then they feel

shame afterwards. And shame is another part that kind of emerges and say, you know, I'm really bad. I keep going back to this bad place. If I feel like I'm out of control and keep going back there, I know it's not helpful for me. I don't really want to do it, but why do I keep going back there?

Jake Kastleman (14:38.429)

And so when a part shows up such as a firefighter part that's pointing us towards pornography to try to, know, spray out those deeper emotions or act as a protector for the deeper emotions of shame or fear or loss in our lives. Do you, in the men that you work with, what do you often find is the true nature of

that part that is taken on a firefighter role, right? Because that's not who the part is, right? We believe in no bad parts, which I consistently find to be true. What are these parts often want or what are they trying to get for the individual through the pornography? What's the core intent?

Rich Savoy (15:28.846)

Yeah, so, and yes, so in IFS, we talk about parts, there's no bad parts, because they're all a part of us. So we respond to parts, not with judgment, but with compassion and curiosity. So a part typically is trying to deal with the pain in a way that so we'll come back to the porn firefighter, but so I

you know, somebody may have a part where they feel powerless or don't feel valued, right? And their deeper need of what they really want is they want to be seen, they want to be affirmed, they want to be attuned to, they want to be able to kind of, you know, experience.

Rich Savoy (16:23.84)

maybe somebody seeing and understanding them, but not judging them for that part, for those things that are going on. And so part of that is living in authenticity, right? And so when we have friendships that are trusted people that we can share those things with, you know, we can live in, you know, I can share that with somebody else and share that burden. And

and then allow it to kind of not just be my own secret that I hold in shame. when we explore a part in terms of what it's actually trying to do, we explore a part more with curiosity and not with judgment. So we might go in even in a session in imagination, we're gonna connect with that part and we're gonna.

try to understand what that part is actually doing on behalf of the system. We might ask that part questions about helping that part feel like we're not there just to judge it, but we're there to understand what is it doing and why is it doing what it's doing. And often as a part of dealing with that, we can unburden the part because we might say, ask the part,

not only what role do you play, but do you like the role that you play? And often the part will say, no, I actually don't know that I like the role that I play, you know, because I know it causes problems and conflicts within the system, you know, within my life, within individuals life. And then part of unburdened apart might be say, is there another role that you would like to play? You know, and then, you know, and.

and begin to get to a part to see that it maybe doesn't have to stay in the role that it is. But we do that with gentleness and not judgment. And so the way men typically work in kind of a man, masculine way is we just will attack a part of us and say, stop doing that, or I'm just going to stop doing that. And we get mad at that part when it keeps coming back and doing that. But when we come to the part and try to understand why it's doing what it's doing,

Rich Savoy (18:44.974)

you know, the parts gonna respond better than when we attack.

Jake Kastleman (18:50.461)

Cause when we get mad, we get angry like that. We're acting from a manager part that's coming up in opposition to the firefighter part. And I remember how liberating it was for me beginning to understand that where feelings of judgment, right? Like you talk about coming towards parts of you without judgment in realizing that if I feel judgment towards myself or I'm in self criticism, I can actually turn.

that part of my mind and say, hey, I see that you're feeling judgment right now and I see that you're being very critical right now. Could you tell me more about why you're doing that? This totally different way of approaching the mind. And then I can actually address and ask directly about that judgment I'm feeling rather than being like, I gotta make that judgment go away. Why am I feeling that? You know, I need to make it stop. And then so that I have multiple parts that are going up against each other in this whole internal war of chaos. And so,

I love that you say it's one by one as well, right? So we just, it's a very Christ-like way to approach the mind, right? I turn to each part one at a time. Hey, tell me about what you're feeling. Tell me about what you're going through. And that requires patience. But I actually just had an experience with man right before this where we were getting to know his primary part that's in a firefighter role with his pornography addiction. And

It took time, but he eventually got this answer that he's never gotten from this part, which was, what would you prefer to be doing? He's tried to ask those questions before, but sometimes it just, comes in layers. What would you prefer to be doing? What's really authentic for you? And what he heard was, I wanna be in love with people.

This can sound cheesy for some of us that maybe haven't experienced this, but when we have, it's very powerful and it's very profound. And he really felt that this part wanted to be in love with people. And it was also a part that was very much into sensuality, right? So distinct from sexuality, right? We can have parts that are involved in our sexuality and all that, but that's more a manifestation. It's something that they become involved in. Whereas this part is, so it's gifts.

Jake Kastleman (21:12.611)

As I say, they have core gifts. It's sensuality, so being in the present moment. And I wanna be in love with people, so I really wanna feel connected and one with people and express love and feel love. That is so powerful. And him having that experience today just shifted his perspective just a little more in identifying that part as something that's good, not something that's bad. So big, such a big deal. And I know that previously we were talking about this, Rich,

You said that you might have a couple of examples or an example or two of a man that you've worked with in IFS-based scenarios for kind of moving into these deeper levels of emotional truth. And I wondered if you might share one of those stories.

Rich Savoy (22:00.391)

Sure. So one man that I was working with, has a part that is the message of the part is I am weak. You know, so the part would continue to kind of speak into the system. I am weak. People see us as weak. That part is experienced. And so the other question, Jake, we can ask a part is

when did you start doing what you are doing as a part of this person's system, right? And so if the part, parts can have feelings, parts can have thoughts, parts can have beliefs, parts can think back. And so this part could think back when it first started having this belief about weakness, right? And so, as we began to explore this part in terms of weakness,

Jake Kastleman (22:52.945)

Yes.

Rich Savoy (22:58.774)

One of the other questions I say is, as we're looking at this part and we're doing this as an exercise using imagination is, what does the part look like? Can you describe what the part looks like? ask the part how old it is. And so, often these parts that are significant burden, significantly burdened are young parts. So they're parts that,

Jake Kastleman (23:12.669)

Mm.

Rich Savoy (23:28.206)

could be a man who's now in his late twenties or his thirties, but yet he's still acting off of a part that is still six or seven years old in the way that it responds and believes. So for this specific situation as we, know, it was really funny because when we first started going on in the person started saying, telling the part, you know, here's

Jake Kastleman (23:41.948)

Right?

Rich Savoy (23:55.887)

I know you feel this and I know you this and I know you've been through this. And I said, can I just pause you for a second? You know, could you let the part talk and not tell the part what the part might be experiencing? Right. And it was this beautiful thing where like, you know, he wanted to speak for the part, but he realized, oh, okay, that seems helpful. Let's, let's.

Jake Kastleman (24:11.069)

huh, yes, yep.

Rich Savoy (24:22.726)

Ask the part with curiosity in terms of what the part wants to say and not because a part may respond very negatively if we're telling the part, here's what you are and here's what you've been through. Let the part talk. And the beautiful thing about this situation was part of the parts memories is this person experienced a lot of rejection from girls over the years, you know, that he would

ask out or want to date and would often get rejected. The part was holding on to that rejection. The interesting thing was this part really affected this person for years, but this guy had now been married happily and loved his wife for a number of years. When we began to explore and talk to that part, and the part was talking about

Jake Kastleman (25:01.085)

Right.

Rich Savoy (25:20.782)

all the different things in terms of how it's experienced this rejection. Well, first we respond to with kindness and compassion. And I'm, I'm really sorry that you've experienced those things. Those things seem like they'd be really difficult and I have obviously kind of impacted you and your role as a part, you know, and, but the thing that was really kind of a breakthrough in this situation was we said,

Can you tell the part about yourself and your life now in terms of how old does the part think you are? Well, the part was, you know, 11, 12 years old and thought he also was young. I said, I want you to tell the part. You know, so he got rejected by beautiful women. said, do you think your wife is beautiful? I said, I do. think my wife is beautiful.

can you tell the part about your wife? And he just started crying as he was interacting with this part. And it was this beautiful moment in IFS work where the part started to kind of understand, it was holding onto this burden, but it was holding onto this burden from the past because he had this great, incredible relationship with his wife who totally accepted it for who he was.

His wife didn't think that he was weak, but the part was holding onto these memories and we were able to kind of really unburden the part through the interaction of helping the part understand, here's what's really going on in my life today. And I appreciate your holding on to the memory of those hurts from the past, but the part responded really positively as it began to kind of understand what's really going on.

Jake Kastleman (27:20.349)

And it's so interesting, you know, if I would have heard this a number of years ago, I would be like, what are they talking about? He's talking about talking to a part of himself and I don't understand. And when you experience it, I remember when I first started having actual experiences with it and doing, you know, I started with No Bad Parts by Dr. Richard Schwartz and doing some of the exercises in there and realizing, oh my gosh.

I really actually can have inner dialogues with these different parts of my mind. Extremely fascinating. You know, I describe it like, we are tasked with being stewards over these parts. We're here to shepherd them, to assist them, to understand them, to guide them. And how do we do that? We do that through the higher self, right? Which I believe that it's...

When we are in that space of perfect compassion and openness and loving parts and listening and understanding, we're actually working through the gifts of God, this God given higher self, this, we're working in tandem with Christ to actually approach parts of us and show compassion. Really just beautiful and fascinating how that works.

Rich Savoy (28:40.984)

Yeah. And Jake, I, I, some first, when I first heard of IFS and my journey to kind of understanding my emotions and connecting with my emotions, it totally resonated with me. So I basically, I heard about it. I started listening to more and more podcasts. I read a whole number of books about IFS. I've actually got to spend time in groups with

two of the authors of some of the books that I've read to continue to process and understand parts work.

Jake Kastleman (29:14.053)

Yeah, you met with Jenna Ramirezma, right? That was one of the Ramirezma, Kim Miller. Yeah, mm-hmm.

Rich Savoy (29:17.442)

Jennifer Esmerisma and Kim Miller who's written the book Boundaries for Your Soul. Jenna has written Altogether You. That was my first book. If you have somebody out there that wants to really understand IFS work brought into a Christian framework, Altogether You is a great book to read around with boundaries for your soul.

Jake Kastleman (29:27.207)

Yeah, yep.

Jake Kastleman (29:41.767)

Hmm, so good.

Rich Savoy (29:46.297)

So, I, some people, yeah, they may be saying, this is crazy. How, what are all these parts? It just doesn't make sense to me. And for some people, it doesn't resonate as well. And that's fine if it doesn't. For me, when I heard it, was like, there's something significant here that I want to dig into and kind of go deeper in my own story and my own parts work. And I love that I have.

had the privilege then to kind of bring that knowledge and understanding and working with other guys, you know, in parts work for them.

Jake Kastleman (30:22.491)

Yeah. So in talking about emotional intelligence, rich, we, as guys, we often find ourselves in these, kind of archetypal patterns, these days where we take on different personas in order to protect ourselves. I wonder if we could talk about maybe a couple of those common patterns that we get into, you know, whether it be, the tough guy or, you know, I'm the pure Christian.

man or I am, you know, associated with my, I'm the highly professional and successful entrepreneur, right? What are some of these patterns we get into that are common that you've seen?

Rich Savoy (31:10.254)

Yeah, so one of the concepts and the illustrations that, so, you know, I speak around the world on emotional intelligence to mostly university students and the part of the world that I have been going to most recently is really Eastern Europe. So I've spent a lot of time in Ukraine and in Poland, working again with younger people. And we'll use the illustration. I'll put a slide up on the board that is an iceberg.

Right. And on the iceberg, you have a certain amount of the iceberg above the water. But there's a significant amount of the iceberg below the water. And, you know, from the famous ship, the Titanic, you know, it got into trouble and sank because of it hit the iceberg below the water and damaged the ship. So the concept here is above the water is the way.

Above the water part of the iceberg is in our lives is it's the way that I project myself to other people or it's the way that I want people to see me or It's the way that I feel like I need people to see me as a man They need to see me in this certain way. So I have this way that I want to project myself and so

So that's kind of the one thing, but below the iceberg in our lives is who I really am. What's really going on inside of me, right? And so what's really going on inside of me may have to do with feelings and beliefs and I can't tell you the number of guys that I've worked with and they've said, they talk about insecurities and they talk about.

feeling other than and feeling like they don't belong in the world of men, you know? And these are guys who look like successful guys who you would look at them and say, there's no way that they're thinking and feeling that, right? And because they have a persona in terms of what they have to project and uphold and it gets exhausting, right? To kind of uphold that if you're not really able to deal with what's really going on.

Rich Savoy (33:30.894)

inside of you. And so yes, you're not going to share the real view with every person you meet on the street and just pour your lives out and your burdens to everybody. you know, hopefully there are some trusted men around me and around, you know, other listeners to say, can I share who I really am and really what's going on? Do I have to live by the persona or there's something so freeing?

to be able to talk about authentically what's going on inside of me. And part of that is being able to express feelings and emotions and having a trusted friend explore that feeling or emotion or that brokenness with you without judgment and accepting you for who you are underneath the surface.

Jake Kastleman (34:23.453)

Mm-hmm. And so Rich, if someone was to say, you know, cause I, again, I've worked with a lot of men in this space where there's this resistance to this and they say, yeah, but why should I not just focus on, you know, I'm the best and I'm doing the best and you know, life is going really well. I mean, everybody's taught me to just focus on the positive and be proactive and you know, don't.

Think about the insecurities, just believe in yourself. So why should I focus on this? Why should I focus on these painful emotions? What are your thoughts on that?

Rich Savoy (35:04.75)

So those are the guys that I talk to all the time, you know, and when they first kind of come in to start to kind of get involved with husband material or when I'm meeting with somebody coaching, when I'm out speaking on emotional intelligence, you know, that is, that's often, you know, the way that people initially kind of present themselves.

But when I get to the reason why is because inside they're dying, know, inside their longing to be seen and affirmed for who they really are and or share, bring some of the struggles. So a number of these guys are dealing with pornography. They're actively involved with their churches. They maybe have leadership positions in their churches. not, they can't talk about any of those things because they have to.

maintain the persona of, you hey, I'm a leader and I'm doing these different things. and so, but the problem is, you know, those there's cracks in what kind of place. So those are the guys that are secretly going to pornography and other act out behaviors, you know, to deal with what's going on underneath them because they don't really know what and how to, to, to deal with.

or they don't feel safe sharing with anybody. And so one of my personal passions is I want to work with wounded healers. I want to work with people that are out there healing, and that's a part of what they do in either ministry or their job in a church or whatever they might be doing to help other people. But they're wounded.

and they have things inside they're not able to really work through. And so a wounded healer needs a safe place where they're going to be able to come down and talk about that and talk about the things that are really going on. you know, we offer that in husband material to come and be a part of a group that's confidential, you know, where you can kind of go deeper and begin to get more vulnerable and understand those emotional parts. So I think that the

Rich Savoy (37:26.348)

The answer, Jake, is it doesn't work out when you're only living with that persona, because the cracks start to come through and sometimes the persona makes you kind of keep working to hide what's really going on.

Jake Kastleman (37:44.495)

Yeah, and it looks like anxiety and depression and perfectionism and addictions and all these ways that we then these parts of us desperately trying to protect us and help us feel okay are acting in extreme roles. And the only way that I can help them step out of those roles is I have to emotionally regulate. have to become aware of and understand

what's going on under the surface, the fears that I have, the shame that I carry, the grief that I carry. I think it's interesting in working with men on emotional intelligence and emotional awareness because there's often this perception that so many of us can have where it's like, people who are really happy and have things together well, well, they don't really experience shame. They don't really experience the feeling of I'm not good enough.

And I personally, I'd love to hear what you have to say on this. Maybe it's similar. I would say they experience all of those things just the same as we do. They just know how to be deeply present with those and to not see them as fact, but to see them as feeling, part of being human, right? We all have it. We all carry fear, shame, and grief. So, yeah.

Rich Savoy (39:08.962)

Yeah. And all those different things you just mentioned, know, anxiety and those are all parts, right? Those are all kind of parts within us that are playing, you know, different roles. What I have found for the exiled part, you know, if you kind of ignore it and just pretend it's not there, it will go off to a distant land because you banished it away from yourself to

gather reinforcements to come back at a future time to make war with you. Right? And if we ignore it, it doesn't stay away from forever. It eventually comes back and makes war on the system. yeah, so, go ahead. I see you want to... Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (39:43.719)

Mmm. wow.

Jake Kastleman (39:59.645)

I've never heard it described that way. I've actually never heard it described that way, that an exile goes off and finds reinforcements. So the exile would actually, again, we're getting in nerd territory here, right, with IFS, but it fascinates me. it would go get protective parts to come back with it to Wage War to try to signal its needs, right? I have all these feelings and all these needs, they're unaddressed, so I'm gonna...

gather these protectors to then cause all sorts of shenanigans so that eventually you might pay attention. Is that kind of the...

Rich Savoy (40:35.714)

Yeah, it's going to gather reinforcements that kind of come back to make war with the system. And yeah, we talked about this when we were prepping for this, right, is we want to get not too nerdy because we love I.F.S. But to make it more simple, if you for those of you have seen the listeners who have seen the movie Inside Out, it really is a simple view. Disney actually hired

neuroscientists to train their writers to come in with a storyline. Right. And so they came up with Inside Out. Inside Out 2 made 1.7 billion dollars worldwide. Right. And so so it's resonating with people to say, but what's the exile in Inside Out that wasn't really allowed? It's sadness. Right. And

Jake Kastleman (41:19.943)

Yeah, amazing.

Rich Savoy (41:32.739)

Sadness, think, is one of my favorite character in the movie because I wasn't really allowed to express sadness when I was kind of growing up. I was forced to kind of make those difficult emotions exiles. know, sadness comes back and plays a key role in really helping out Riley, the key character, this young girl growing up.

Jake Kastleman (41:48.487)

Mm-hmm.

Rich Savoy (42:00.729)

God has created our emotions, and they're not something that we have to kind of be afraid of, but emotions are really like lights on our dashboard that when they light up, we can say, I'm going to explore this to try to understand more deeply what's going on inside of me versus trying to run away from an exiled.

Jake Kastleman (42:26.269)

Yeah, because I think a mindfulness concept from Eastern philosophy that helped me so much, and IFS really drives this home, is emotions don't equate truth or fact. It's something that's important. It needs to be explored. But I think so many of us can feel like, why is that there? My life doesn't even match up to that. It makes no sense that that would be there. It's not logical.

separate the logical mind from the emotional mind, right? We could say the limbic system versus, you know, the prefrontal cortex or however we want to put it, but your emotional mind functions on very different rules. It's not in the, you know, in the zone of logic and the mental, it's a totally different set of rules. So with emotions, I just, I simply need to be deeply present with them, even if I think, well, this is totally immature and totally insane. Well,

It's there inside of me, so I've got to take time to be present with it and explore it, because obviously a part of me wants to be heard, right? Yeah.

Rich Savoy (43:32.655)

Yeah, and I think when a part gets to be heard and express itself, a part desires that, right? A part is doing what it's doing for a reason. It doesn't really want to cause the harm that sometimes the part is causing. And often the part has an awareness that it's causing harm, but it doesn't know what to do with that. And we can come...

to that part to kind of help the part understand, help me understand what you do and why you do what you do and help to kind of unburden and then unburden the part. From our adult self, Jennifer Smirsmill, I'll talk about the God image that's inside of all of us, because we were created in God's image. And yeah, so.

This is, I found to be really helpful in my own life and the lives of guys that I've worked with. And Jake, the first time you and I met on a retreat recently, we connected over this kind of conversation. We'd started talking deeply about IFS and just really kind of connected over that. And I love that.

Jake Kastleman (44:35.271)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (44:41.948)

Yes.

Jake Kastleman (44:46.877)

It was a really beneficial conversation. was with Doug Carpenter was there for one of our conversations and it was actually, I've thought about it frequently ever since, which my question was, is there one higher self, again, nerd territory here, but some of my listeners will find this interesting. Is there one higher self, like just, so the self as it's referred to in IFS, right, with a capital S, or

Is there a higher self throughout all parts? And I think my question was, when the higher self speaks inside of me, does it act via parts and helps them manifest like real truth? Like it's speaking through them or is it speaking directly? I loved, Doug said, every part has a higher self within it.

He calls it the golden self sometimes with his clients, right and that really Resonated with me and as I've done parts work since then You know, I like I've kind of how I put it is there's there's and you just said this God is inside all these parts at the core of them, right? God is there I got us throughout all things So it would make sense that every part of us even if it acts in destructive or crazy ways There is a core intent that is good

Right, it is pure, but it's getting masked and it's getting twisted and it's getting all into all sorts of destructive patterns. But that part has a golden self or a higher self, right? A core aspect that is of the God image that is who it truly is. And that gives me so much more understanding for parts and helps me get in touch with, know, who, who are you really? What are you really trying to do for me? And as I do that, then that part,

Over time, many of my parts have converted or are converting into very helpful roles in my life. For instance, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, but I have an adventurer part. And that was one of my primary parts involved in pornography addiction because it was seeking out novelty and newness and excitement and fun. And I wasn't getting really hardly any of that in my life because I was so uptight and always

Jake Kastleman (47:12.013)

anxious and I had social anxiety, know, so worried about what everybody thought all the time. I felt like I could never let my hair down or whatever the male version of that is, right? And so this part was like, look, you're not bringing me into your life. Like I'm not involved. So here's how I'm gonna be involved. And obviously it was also trying to get me connection and some other things that are deeper.

a deeper exile and we really, really longed for. So it was acting very selflessly in that way, which is so different than the hate that I had for it for many years. Now I love that part.

Rich Savoy (47:54.287)

Yeah, yeah, and I love just the way that you describe that, you know, and so we sometimes we'll kind of talk about the golden self kind of a part and then there also may be the shadow of the part, right? And the shadow is something that's kind of influenced by the wounds of that part where it keeps going back to past wounds. It's kind of, it's the shadow of the things in the past, but it kind of affects the present.

Jake Kastleman (48:07.421)

Mmm.

Jake Kastleman (48:22.545)

Mm-hmm.

Rich Savoy (48:23.15)

and

it's helpful often to just be aware of the shadow and explore the shadow because the shadow can often also point us in the direction of healing.

Jake Kastleman (48:36.797)

So there's another question I wanna ask Rich, and this came up actually recently with a client, made this very prominent for me. So when we start to actually become aware of our emotions, look at them, and especially to come out of firefighter mechanisms like pornography or overeating or being a shopaholic or whatever it might be, what kinds of challenges can men anticipate experiencing?

it does, in many ways it doesn't feel good. Like I described that you feel a lot more, because you're actually feeling. what challenges can they expect to experience on this road of trying to genuinely engage with all emotion, including painful emotion?

Rich Savoy (49:27.49)

Well, and you know, that's an insightful question, Jake, from a standpoint that we avoid emotions because we don't want to feel the difficult emotions. so part of what we kind of talk about in in basically kind of, you know, healthy emotions work in terms of emotional intelligence or even within IFS work is

sometimes we have to sit in the pain of the emotion, right? And, know, I hate that. I hate that part of this, right? Like I want to get to the end where it's healed and the pain's not there anymore, you know, but it doesn't, that's not the way emotions work, right? As we just don't like, we've acknowledged it and now we're moving on. And now we're just going to all have pleasant emotions, right?

Jake Kastleman (49:58.388)

Mmm. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (50:14.887)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (50:21.072)

Right. Yes.

Rich Savoy (50:21.634)

Sometimes you have to sit in the pain and my eyes get teary even talking about this because I it's a part of my life experience that I've it's been hard, but it's been what I've needed to do. Right. And, you know, the pain of the emotion doesn't go away just because we've come to acknowledge it. Sometimes we have to sit in the pain and experience the pain. And that's sometimes when guys want to go to porn. It's like, I don't want to sit here.

Jake Kastleman (50:36.464)

Yes.

Rich Savoy (50:50.904)

But I have this quick escape, you know, and so our healing work is never really done here on this earth, right? And there's always gonna be another part that we have to spend some time coming back to and exploring with kindness and curiosity.

Jake Kastleman (51:06.289)

I think I had this delusion kind of during my first year of parts work and IFS work that if I just did enough work, eventually I would get rid of, you know, most or all of my pain and then I'd just be so peaceful. exactly what you just said, I just eventually came to accept it. It's all layers. And after I peeled through one...

layer, there's another layer and another layer and there's just endless layers, endless parts. It doesn't ever end. And it becomes this journey, right? Cause that can sound so discouraging, I think at first glance, but it becomes this very exciting journey because with each layer I peel through, right? And building this emotional intelligence and getting to understand myself, I become more and more open, more and more authentic, feeling more and more whole.

But that doesn't mean the work's done, right? It's always ongoing. And I agree with what you said. It's interesting because I was, a client was asking me about this the other day. He said, so what? I'm just supposed to sit here and feel this? That sucks.

Rich Savoy (52:14.552)

Can you give me the pill to take it away?

Jake Kastleman (52:16.893)

Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, this is like, this is part of it. Yes, you really are. This is good. Like I will say that a lot. Someone will start crying. This is good. It's good. This is horrible. Why would I want to cry? Like, no, I promise this, like this is your body and your mind releasing something that really needs to be seen and understood. And

with it after practice, I think we start to see that like, this is actually good. It is good for me to feel sadness. But at first it's just, why would I want to feel any of this? And you still feel that way sometimes you're like, my gosh, this is just so painful. It just sucks. Like that never really totally goes away, right? It is, it is unpleasant inherently. So it's not like we're ever going to love that experience. I just love being in pain and feeling shame or, know, it's, it's hard.

It's hard. So I wanted to ask as well, you said that living authentically requires safe people to talk to. A community is a powerful aspect of healing. How does a person discern who is safe and

What should he look for in relationships where he can practice deeper emotional honesty?

Rich Savoy (53:51.407)

Yeah, and I see two extremes here, right? When people begin to understand they need to understand and communicate their emotions, they go out and start posting on social media, here's my emotion and here's what I'm feeling. it's just like, okay, there was one young man that my wife and I had worked with who was staying.

Jake Kastleman (54:05.979)

Right.

Rich Savoy (54:16.962)

was experiencing some really deep problems and invited him to come into our house and live with us for almost a year. And we really kind of worked with him and mentored him and he would post everything going on in his life on social media and said, so would you in a room of a thousand people talk about these things like the way that you're talking about? Because so the one extreme is you talk to everybody about it, right?

The other extreme is you talk to nobody about it, right? And the right place comes back to the root of your question, and that is we need a smaller circle of people who are safe. And so part of what makes up somebody who's safe is you trust them that what you share with them stays between you and that person. Or one of the things we talk about in our groups is

this group is a safe space. So when you talk about it in the group, it stays within the group. So the group can talk about it. can, the group members can kind of talk about it and kind of try to help the individual, but it doesn't go outside the group because the group, this group is a container of a safe place to kind of process these wounds and these hurts and these emotions. So, so I think the qualities you look for is somebody that's kind of trustworthy.

Somebody that is going to commit to keep confidential. That's the only way that you're going to be able to be completely vulnerable and authentic. people that respond to you in a tuning way, they're attuning to your emotions and your feelings that are affirming you and not judging you. When somebody is kind of judging your emotions, I just talked to somebody earlier today who

is they started sharing openly within a church environment. And before they knew it, were certain things positioned, being taken on them where they were not allowed to do certain things because they were unsafe. It's just like, well, you weren't unsafe because you were sharing those things. You're not really doing, out all of these things, but you're feeling those things. And unfortunately, sometimes,

Rich Savoy (56:42.798)

Churches aren't really as strong in doing this where we really allow people to be safe of really sharing what's going on and attuning to them with grace and without judgment.

Jake Kastleman (56:56.837)

Yeah, and I think, you know, a good gauge, just like you're saying is when I try to be vulnerable, right? I love what Drew Boas says. He said this on the episode we did together. said the root word of vulnerable, vulnerable is right wound. So to be to be vulnerable is to be woundable. So in order to genuinely connect with others, I have to, you know, open myself up to potentially be wounded.

Right. Or for what I say to be accepted and embraced, and then we can grow and heal and experience wonderful things, but it could potentially go the other way. And so a gauge is, you know, if I kind of put myself out there, right. And, and, and, and share something reasonably, and I get a response of that judgment or the controller, you shouldn't feel that way. Or, why don't you try doing this and that'll fix it.

or just sloughing it off for it's no big deal, right? I faced this last week, you should have seen that, right? These responses, these are manager and firefighter responses that we can have to our own painful emotions, but also to others' painful emotions. So in that case, someone is responding with a part of them that is in manager or firefighter mode to your pain. And is that somebody that I want to continue sharing things with?

I think we can often get in a pattern of, know, continues to try and to vie for that connection, especially if it's a family member or a parent, you know, a sibling, someone we really want to be close with. And I think there comes a point where we, we, we kind of have to accept like, is this helpful to me or this person for me to be this authentic and open? It's not, it's not, it's hurting me, right? It's actively hurting me. And so that is so sad and that requires grieving to say, you know, this

is not someone that I can be this open with. And so I'll have to find others that I can. And this is kind of the where this relationship will will be. This is the this is the height of the relationship for now, at least. I am.

Rich Savoy (59:06.638)

Yeah, and Jake, you bring up this whole other side of emotional intelligence, right? So we're understanding our own emotions and what's going on on the side of us. But in relationships, emotional intelligence is having awareness of what's going on in the other person emotionally. So whether it's a really good friend or a spouse, you know, why are they being triggered by something that I just said? So I can respond to them in judgment because they're triggered and I'm offended kind of they're triggered.

or I can be curious about their part that just got triggered and really what's going on inside of them. so part of what we talk about when I travel to different countries in emotional intelligence is not only awareness of your own emotions, but an awareness of emotions of people around you. So it could be your boss or it could be your spouse or it could be your really good friend, right? And just, you know, being aware of what...

know, part, their parts are and what their emotions is. One of the books I read, and I found this through my life from an IFS standpoint, the comment was, once you understand and get parts, you can't unsee it. And I find that that's true in my life. When something happens and somebody reacts, I'm like, oh, there's a part that just came out in this other person, you know, and, you know, I kind of start to view the world more through emotional awareness and parts.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:35.483)

Yep, it's so true. That's what happened for me. It just has become more and more and more that way since I learned IFS, because it's just such an empowering, beautiful way to view the mind and a way that brings so much acceptance and compassion for myself and other people. It's de-pathologizing. I can see the core of somebody or the core of myself and realize we don't intend

to cause harm or to hurt or other things like that, or intend on doing things that are self-destructive. We're actually, we're seeking to fulfill deeper needs, deeper good desires. It's a wonderful way to view the mind. So I wanna kind of last question and anything else you wanna share is great. But last question is if someone wants to begin practicing emotional.

until increasing their emotional intelligence or increasing their emotional awareness or practicing some IFS in basic ways. What's a place they can start to do that? What's a way they can begin?

Rich Savoy (01:01:44.867)

Yeah. So there are a number of great podcasts. Jenna and Drew have a great podcast. They have three. There's three now, Drew Boa and Jenna Vesemirisma. You can just go out on YouTube and kind of search on Drew Boa and Jenna. It's just a good place to kind of just listen to some podcasts.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:01.612)

yeah, yeah.

Rich Savoy (01:02:14.926)

Um, Jake, uh, from your podcast, you come back to this a lot, right? In terms of coming back to IFS principles and it's a core of what you do. And so, you know, just listening to different podcasts, that was my, when it resonated with me, I started to kind of just listen to some different podcasts. And then I started going through, you know, reading different books and getting involved with groups to help me grow in my understanding in depth in this.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:20.807)

Yeah, yeah, all the time,

Rich Savoy (01:02:44.28)

There's always an IFS counselor. If you're dealing with struggles, you can look up a counselor who actually deals with IFS. And so, you I have had two different counselor coaches that I've worked with, you know, for that. So, so podcasts, think are a great place to just start. You know, you can just kind of do that with, you know, an hour or two a week and kind of go deeper in that.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:16.061)

So what you're saying is people should just keep listening to my podcast. That's what you're saying.

Rich Savoy (01:03:18.606)

I think I was, I was affirming that. So, husband material was great in terms of, especially for guys who struggle with act out behaviors and porn. Um, so, um, the, the podcasts that come out of husband material and, uh, drew boa and the things that, that he does, um, the, um, if, if you, if, if you have a spiritual background and you want to kind of connect with IFS, including kind of a spiritual perspective.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:24.071)

Perfect.

Rich Savoy (01:03:48.783)

Altogether You from Jenifer Smirisma is a good book to read.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:53.629)

And there's so many good meditative exercises after every chapter in there. She really does an excellent job applying all of it. Yeah, it's really good. Well, Rich, if somebody wants to get in contact with you, work with you, et cetera, where should they go?

Rich Savoy (01:04:10.594)

Yeah. So you can kind of come out into Husmaterial and kind of contact me. You know, some people have different names on Husmaterial, but I'm Rich Savoy out in Husmaterial. if you go out into Husmaterial and you can contact me through there, I'm in LinkedIn. Also, Rich Savoy. So those are, I'm on Facebook. So you can find me on social media.

Jake, totally I've loved talking with you about IFS, you know, here as a part of the podcast, but also in the times that we have been able to disconnect over this.

Jake Kastleman (01:04:51.581)

It's joy, man. It's a joy to have you on. Thanks for coming, Rich.

Rich Savoy (01:04:54.799)

Sure, thanks everybody.