The Hidden Link Between Enmeshment and Porn Addiction | Shame, Intimacy & Lasting Recovery with Jeremy Mast
Have you ever felt responsible for someone else's happiness? Maybe you've spent much of your life trying to keep the peace, avoid disappointing others, or be the person everyone expects you to be. On the outside, you appear responsible, agreeable, and dependable. But inside, you're exhausted, resentful, and longing for a little freedom.
What if these seemingly unrelated struggles have something to do with your porn addiction?
In Episode 170 of the No More Desire Podcast, I sat down with Jeremy Mast, therapist and founder of the Center for Integrative Change, to explore a fascinating connection between enmeshment and porn addiction. We discussed how unhealthy family relationships, suppressed emotional needs, shame, and difficulty establishing personal autonomy can contribute to compulsive sexual behaviors.
What I love about Jeremy's approach is his emphasis on understanding rather than condemning. He believes we must understand what an addictive behavior has been doing for us before we can effectively replace it.
This conversation offers a different perspective on porn addiction recovery, one that challenges us to look beyond sexual urges and begin examining the relationships, obligations, and emotional needs shaping our lives.
What Is Enmeshment, and How Can It Contribute to Porn Addiction?
Enmeshment is a relationship pattern in which emotional boundaries become blurred, making it difficult to distinguish your own feelings, needs, and responsibilities from those of another person. It commonly develops within families, although it can occur in other relationships.
Jeremy explains that enmeshment often involves an unconscious sense of obligation. A man may feel responsible for his mother's happiness, for example. He might believe he must always be available, avoid upsetting her, and put her needs ahead of his own. Even as an adult, making independent decisions can leave him overwhelmed with guilt.
This is different from simply loving your parents or having a close relationship with them. Healthy closeness allows for individuality. Enmeshment makes individuality feel threatening.
A man who grows up in this environment may gradually learn that his needs are less important than everyone else's. He becomes skilled at understanding what others want while losing touch with what he wants himself.
And here's where things become interesting.
When a man spends years suppressing his emotions and desires, those needs don't simply disappear. They remain within him, often generating resentment, anxiety, and emotional pressure. He may eventually seek some private way to experience the autonomy, freedom, or comfort he feels unable to experience in his relationships.
For some men, pornography becomes that escape.
Jeremy emphasizes that not every man struggling with porn addiction has experienced enmeshment. However, he has repeatedly observed addictive behaviors among people struggling with these family dynamics.
The important question isn't whether we can blame our parents or our childhood. It's whether we can recognize patterns that continue influencing our choices today.
The Hidden Contract: When Loving Others Means Abandoning Yourself
One of Jeremy's most insightful explanations involves what he calls an internal contract.
This is an unspoken agreement that develops within a relationship, something like: I am responsible for your emotional well-being, and I must prioritize your needs, even when doing so hurts me.
You might never consciously agree to this contract. Perhaps it formed when you were a young boy who learned that disappointing his mother resulted in guilt, emotional withdrawal, or conflict.
Over time, you may have become a people-pleaser, perfectionist, or caretaker. You learned to anticipate others' needs and suppress your own reactions.
The problem is that these behaviors can appear loving while being driven primarily by fear and obligation.
I know something about this personally. Recognizing my own perfectionism, people-pleasing, and relational patterns has been an important part of my healing. Some of those realizations took years.
What I want you to notice is that genuine love and emotional obligation are not the same thing.
Love allows us to care for others while remaining honest about ourselves. Enmeshment makes us feel that having our own needs is somehow disloyal.
And when our needs remain unexpressed, resentment often follows.
That resentment can become an emotional trigger for pornography use, particularly when a man doesn't feel capable of expressing it directly.
Why Pornography Can Become a Form of Secret Rebellion
Jeremy shared that when he began drinking heavily during graduate school, alcohol initially helped relieve his anxiety. But looking back, he recognized another function: drinking gave him a sense of independence from the obligations he felt toward his mother.
It was a way of doing something entirely for himself, even though it ultimately harmed him.
I believe this insight is particularly important for men struggling with enmeshment and porn addiction.
Imagine spending your day trying to satisfy everyone else's expectations. You perform well at work, accommodate your family, manage your spouse's emotions, and attempt to avoid disappointing anyone.
By evening, you feel emotionally depleted. Perhaps there's an unconscious thought running through your mind: When do I get to do what I want?
Pornography can become a private form of rebellion. Nobody else has a say. Nobody needs anything from you. For a brief moment, you feel in control.
But this is counterfeit autonomy.
You're not becoming genuinely independent. You're escaping into secrecy, creating additional shame, and reinforcing the very disconnection you want to overcome.
Real autonomy isn't doing whatever you want in secret. It's learning to make honest, responsible choices in the open.
This may involve learning to say no, expressing your feelings, or allowing someone to be disappointed without immediately trying to fix their emotions.
For a man accustomed to enmeshment, these simple acts can be profoundly uncomfortable. They're also opportunities to develop a healthier sense of self.
Porn Addiction Isn't Only an Escape From Pain. It's an Escape Toward a Feeling.
During our conversation, Jeremy and I explored two questions I believe every man recovering from pornography addiction should consider:
What am I trying to escape from? And what am I trying to escape toward?
Most men can eventually identify some painful emotions behind their pornography cravings. They recognize stress, anxiety, loneliness, boredom, rejection, or inadequacy.
But understanding what you're trying to escape toward reveals another layer of the problem.
Perhaps pornography gives you a temporary sense of freedom. Perhaps it makes you feel desired, significant, powerful, accepted, or emotionally safe.
One man might seek relief from the pressure to perform. Another may want to feel wanted after years of feeling insignificant. Another may be trying to soothe the loneliness he experiences even while surrounded by people.
These are very different emotional needs, even when the outward behavior looks identical.
And if we don't understand the underlying need, we may remove pornography without developing another way of meeting that need.
The next time you experience a craving, instead of immediately condemning yourself, become curious. Ask what you were feeling beforehand and what you hoped pornography would provide.
Then consider what a healthy response to that need might look like.
This doesn't excuse the behavior. It gives you the information necessary to begin changing it.
Porn Addiction and Intimacy: Why Fantasy Can Feel Safer Than Connection
Another important teaching from Jeremy involves the relationship between pornography and intimacy.
Many men have been conditioned to experience closeness primarily through sexuality. They may struggle to communicate emotional needs, ask for affection, or become vulnerable with others.
Pornography can provide an imitation of being wanted and desired without requiring the emotional risks involved in genuine connection.
Consider what real intimacy requires. You must allow another person to know you. You must communicate honestly, acknowledge differences, tolerate uncertainty, and accept that the other person has needs and desires of their own.
Pornography demands none of these things.
It allows a man to temporarily experience the fantasy of acceptance, desirability, and connection while remaining emotionally protected from rejection.
But simulated intimacy cannot meet the deeper need for genuine belonging.
If pornography has become your primary strategy for managing loneliness or feeling wanted, recovery must involve learning how to experience closeness outside of sexual stimulation.
That may mean building friendships with other men, expressing affection without expecting sex, becoming more emotionally available to your spouse, or learning to communicate feelings you've spent years hiding.
These changes can feel unfamiliar initially, particularly if vulnerability wasn't safe during childhood. But healthy intimacy is something we can practice and develop.
Shame, Perfectionism, and the Fear of Being Known
Jeremy's personal recovery story offers another important lesson about shame and porn addiction.
While studying theology in seminary, he struggled privately with alcohol and pornography. He described feeling terrified that someone would discover his pornography use. The shame was so intense that he imagined being confronted by someone monitoring his internet activity.
What began to change things was finding a therapist with whom he could speak honestly without fear of judgment.
He wasn't initially ready to change all his behaviors. But being understood helped reduce the shame he carried.
This illustrates an important distinction between remorse and toxic shame.
Remorse recognizes that our actions have caused harm and encourages us to take responsibility. Toxic shame tells us that the harmful behavior proves something fundamentally terrible about who we are.
When a man believes he's unworthy of love or incapable of change, the resulting pain can drive him toward further escape.
I experienced something similar with perfectionism. For years, I believed that making mistakes meant something was wrong with me. Eventually, I began recognizing that perfectionism was partly an attempt to avoid the painful experience of shame.
But healing requires developing the capacity to experience difficult emotions without running from them.
Research into self-compassion and shame supports the potential value of compassionate approaches for reducing self-criticism, although the evidence has limitations.
When shame arises, I encourage men to acknowledge it without automatically accepting the negative story attached to it. Recognize what happened, take responsibility where necessary, and practice responding to yourself with understanding rather than condemnation.
Compassion isn't permission to continue harmful behavior. It creates space to address that behavior without being consumed by self-hatred.
Brotherhood and Emotional Safety: Why Recovery Requires Real Relationships
Jeremy's experience with therapy highlights something I emphasize constantly in my coaching: men need relationships where they can be honest.
Many of us grew up learning to conceal our weaknesses. Perhaps our emotions were criticized, dismissed, or treated as something embarrassing. Over time, we became increasingly disconnected from others and ourselves.
Pornography can become an attractive substitute when genuine vulnerability feels dangerous.
But when a man finds trustworthy brotherhood, something begins to change. He discovers he can express insecurity, fear, shame, and grief without losing his dignity or belonging.
I have seen how powerful it can be when men begin experiencing themselves as accepted members of a community of other men.
This is why I encourage men to build friendships, participate in supportive communities, and seek professional help when appropriate.
Your spouse cannot be expected to provide all the emotional safety you need, particularly when she's healing from betrayal. Developing your own support system is part of taking responsibility for recovery.
And brotherhood isn't simply about reporting your sobriety. It's about developing the ability to be known.
Why Control and Pressure Don't Create Lasting Porn Addiction Recovery
Jeremy also challenges the idea that we can force someone into meaningful behavioral change.
He introduces the Stages of Change model, which describes five common stages people move through when changing entrenched behaviors: precontemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, and maintenance.
Some men haven't fully recognized their pornography use as problematic. Others understand the harm but feel conflicted about changing. Still others are preparing for change, actively practicing new behaviors, or working to maintain progress.
What matters is recognizing where you are and taking the next appropriate step.
A betrayed spouse may understandably want to force immediate recovery. She's hurting, frightened, and longing for safety. But controlling another person's decisions cannot substitute for that person's willingness to take ownership.
This doesn't mean partners should tolerate dishonesty or ongoing harmful behavior. Healthy boundaries, requests for accountability, and decisions about their own safety are entirely appropriate.
For men in recovery, the deeper question becomes whether our motivation is rooted in fear of consequences or genuine commitment to our values.
Are you pursuing sobriety simply because your wife is upset? Or because you want to become an honest, trustworthy, emotionally mature man?
External consequences can awaken us to the need for change. But lasting recovery requires learning to choose integrity even when nobody is watching.
Healing a Marriage Requires Boundaries, Accountability, and Compassion
Enmeshment doesn't simply affect relationships with parents. Its patterns can carry into marriage.
A man who has learned to feel responsible for another person's emotions may become consumed with trying to manage his wife's reactions. He may apologize primarily to calm her down, avoid difficult conversations, or agree to things he secretly resents.
Eventually, this can create an exhausting cycle of pleasing, resentment, and withdrawal.
Healthy intimacy requires something different.
A husband must learn to listen to his wife's pain without making it entirely about his own shame. He must respect her boundaries without abandoning his responsibility for honest communication.
Likewise, a betrayed spouse needs the freedom to care for herself, establish appropriate limits, and decide what she needs to feel safe.
Jeremy encourages partners to focus on what they can control: their own choices, boundaries, support, and well-being.
For men, this means learning to tolerate uncomfortable conversations without collapsing into defensiveness or demanding reassurance.
I've written more about this in my article on rebuilding trust after porn addiction and betrayal trauma.
A healthy marriage is not built by one person controlling the other. It's built through honesty, mutual respect, emotional maturity, and repeated actions that demonstrate trustworthiness.
Harm Reduction: Why You Don't Have to Be Perfect to Begin Healing
One of Jeremy's more unconventional teachings concerns harm reduction in addiction recovery.
Harm reduction is an approach that values meaningful positive change, even when someone hasn't yet achieved their ultimate recovery goal.
In substance-use settings, this approach can involve different goals and methods. Jeremy makes an important distinction when applying the principles to problematic pornography use: recognizing incremental progress does not mean encouraging someone to continue harmful sexual behaviors.
Instead, the focus is on meeting people where they are, understanding the functions of their behavior, and helping them make healthier choices.
The broader principles of compassion, personal agency, and positive change are also reflected in SAMHSA's work on harm reduction and recovery.
I find this perspective valuable because many men approach pornography recovery with an all-or-nothing mindset.
They believe that unless they achieve perfect sobriety, everything else they've accomplished is meaningless.
But meaningful progress can begin when a man becomes more emotionally honest, develops healthier boundaries, seeks help, identifies his triggers, or learns to respond differently to shame.
Sobriety remains important. So do accountability and repairing the harm caused by compulsive behaviors.
Yet recovery isn't measured exclusively by the absence of pornography. It's also reflected in the emotional, relational, and personal changes supporting that sobriety.
Four Mindset Shifts That Support Lasting Recovery
During our conversation, Jeremy and I discussed four principles emphasized by the Center for Integrative Change: curiosity instead of confrontation, choice instead of control, collaboration instead of compliance, and compassion instead of shame.
I believe these offer a valuable framework for developing a healthier recovery mindset.
Curiosity instead of confrontation means becoming interested in why a craving arises rather than immediately attacking yourself for experiencing it.
Choice instead of control means developing the capacity to make responsible decisions instead of relying exclusively on rigid rules, punishment, or external pressure.
Collaboration instead of compliance means approaching relationships and recovery support with honesty and shared responsibility rather than simply performing whatever others expect.
Compassion instead of shame means recognizing your humanity, limitations, and emotional wounds while remaining accountable for your actions.
What connects these principles is a shift away from fear-based behavior and toward mature self-leadership.
In No More Desire®, I teach recovery across four pillars: emotional, neurological, biological, and relational, resting on a spiritual foundation of self-awareness, truth, and love.
These mindset shifts support that broader work. They help us move from fighting ourselves to understanding ourselves, from hiding to connecting, and from temporary relief toward meaningful growth.
You Don't Just Quit Pornography. You Learn to Outgrow It.
Near the end of our conversation, Jeremy shared a statement that beautifully captures the deeper purpose of recovery:
"We don't get sober from porn. We outgrow it."
I love this perspective.
Jeremy used the famous Rat Park experiments as an illustration of how environment and opportunities for connection can influence addictive behaviors. Although animal studies cannot establish how human addiction recovery works, the illustration raises a worthwhile question.
What happens when we stop focusing exclusively on removing something harmful and begin building something genuinely fulfilling?
Many men have spent years treating pornography as their primary source of comfort, excitement, autonomy, or emotional relief.
As they develop meaningful friendships, emotional resilience, healthy boundaries, purposeful activities, and greater intimacy, those old behaviors may become less necessary.
This is the work of moving from boyhood into mature manhood.
A boy may depend on secrecy, fantasy, avoidance, and external approval to manage his emotional world. A mature man learns to recognize his needs, communicate them responsibly, tolerate discomfort, establish boundaries, and pursue meaningful connection.
This doesn't happen automatically, and it doesn't eliminate the need for practical sobriety safeguards.
But it gives those safeguards a larger purpose.
We're not simply trying to avoid pornography for the rest of our lives. We're developing a mindset and lifestyle in which pornography no longer serves the same emotional function.
A Practical Exercise: Discover What Pornography Has Been Doing for You
I want to leave you with an exercise inspired by Jeremy's teachings.
Think about a recent pornography craving, relapse, or moment when you wanted to escape into fantasy. Instead of beginning with the behavior itself, examine what was happening beneath it.
First, identify the emotional pressure. Were you anxious, lonely, resentful, overwhelmed, ashamed, or exhausted? What had been happening in your relationships or daily responsibilities?
Second, identify the experience you wanted. Were you seeking freedom, comfort, significance, affection, control, or a break from expectations?
Third, examine your relationship patterns. Had you been suppressing your feelings, trying to please someone, avoiding a necessary boundary, or taking responsibility for emotions that weren't yours to manage?
Finally, choose one authentic response. Perhaps you need to have an honest conversation, set a boundary, connect with a trusted friend, practice emotional mindfulness, or make time for something meaningful.
For example, if you recognize that you regularly crave pornography after conversations with a parent who leaves you feeling guilty and obligated, that is useful information. Rather than simply fighting the craving, begin examining the relationship and considering what a healthier boundary might look like.
The goal isn't to identify a perfect explanation for every urge. It's to become increasingly aware of your emotional patterns so you can respond with greater wisdom and intentionality.
Frequently Asked Questions About Enmeshment and Porn Addiction
Can mother-son enmeshment cause porn addiction?
Mother-son enmeshment can contribute to emotional suppression, guilt, resentment, and difficulty developing personal autonomy. For some men, these experiences may play a role in compulsive pornography use. However, enmeshment is not a universal cause of porn addiction, and experiencing it does not mean a man will develop an addiction.
How do I overcome enmeshment with my parents?
Begin by recognizing where you feel responsible for your parents' emotions, where you suppress your needs, and where guilt influences your decisions. Practice expressing your preferences, establishing respectful boundaries, and allowing others to experience disappointment without automatically trying to resolve it. A qualified therapist can help you work through deeply established family patterns.
Can emotional intimacy help with porn addiction recovery?
Healthy emotional intimacy can be an important part of recovery, particularly for men who have relied on pornography to cope with loneliness, insecurity, or unmet attachment needs. Genuine connection provides opportunities to experience acceptance and belonging without relying on fantasy. It is one component of recovery rather than a substitute for behavioral change and appropriate support.
Conclusion: Build a Life You No Longer Need to Escape From
One of the most meaningful lessons from my conversation with Jeremy Mast is that pornography addiction often makes more sense when we begin understanding the emotional and relational history beneath it.
For some men, enmeshment has taught them to abandon their needs, suppress their emotions, and experience independence only through secrecy. Others have learned to seek comfort, acceptance, or intimacy through pornography because genuine vulnerability feels unsafe.
But these patterns can change.
You can learn to establish boundaries without guilt, experience emotions without escaping, communicate needs without shame, and develop relationships where you can be fully known.
This is the kind of recovery I want for every man I work with. Not simply a life without pornography, but a life increasingly filled with integrity, connection, freedom, purpose, and love.
Learn more about Jeremy and his work here: http://CICFreeConsult.com
Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, the free online community, my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.
If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Learn more about the Academy.
If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. Spots are limited. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Learn more about working 1-on-1 with Jake Kastleman.
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Transcript for Episode 170: The Hidden Link Between Enmeshment and Porn Addiction | Shame, Intimacy & Lasting Recovery with Jeremy Mast
Jake Kastleman (00:00)
Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.
Discovery is all or nothing. You make it a few days, a
Jeremy Mast (00:26)
Is
Jake Kastleman (00:26)
week, or maybe even three or four, and then you relapse. Progress ended. I failed, is the message I often hear from the men that I work with. All those skills gained, all that effort put in, all the changes that you've been working on gone because of an impulsive decision.
Is that right though? Is recovery all or nothing?
I want you to hear this clearly, my friend. When you relapsed, your efforts before that do not amount to nothing, brother. They have not disappeared. They are not irrelevant. One day of failure does not overshadow weeks, months, or years of growth. Recovery is a skill, or rather, a set of skills. Why do we expect
That there won't be mistakes when we are learning to become stronger, better, healthier, more honest? What other endeavor in life does culture demand such perfection with so immediately? Sports, music, art, careers. Isn't recovery harder than any of these? And don't we make mistakes along the way in all of them? And yet, we think that one mistake disqualifies and condemns us.
This all-or-nothing perfectionistic pressure does not fuel recovery, brother. Instead, this perfectionistic, fear-based mentality is central to the addictive mindset. Today, my guest Jeremy Mast and I discuss this mindset within the recovery community. You will learn the five stages of change, the difference between toxic shame and healthy shame, and the importance of curiosity, choice, and
Collaboration and compassion for recovery. All this will empower your sobriety, your relationships, and your happiness. This is not about letting off the gas or providing an excuse. It's about approaching recovery in a human way that actually works. My guest Jeremy Mast is the founder of the Center for Integrative Change, which specializes in porn, sex, and drug addiction.
Betrayal trauma recovery. It is about becoming whole, a fully integrated man who can act honestly and authentically and recover step by step. Jeremy has experienced recovery personally and is now walking with addicts, partners, and couples down their path of integrative change. Beyond this, Jeremy is just a genuinely great guy and has become a friend. It was a joy to have him on the show.
Before we dive in, a reminder to join the No More Desire Brotherhood online community, download my ebook, or sign up for my workshop. These resources are free and they are your next step to get sober. You'll find each of them and more at nommodesire.com slash tools. All right, let's get started.
Jeremy, my friend. So nice to have you here, man. Thanks for coming on.
Jeremy Mast (03:50)
Yeah, thanks for having me, Jake. I'm glad to be here.
Jake Kastleman (03:52)
Yeah,
I have to tell you that in meeting you we had an initial conversation and your presence, man, like you have this calmness and just this love that comes through you that I really felt on that call. And so I've been looking forward to this conversation, man.
Jeremy Mast (04:10)
Well, that's so kind. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Jake Kastleman (04:13)
Yeah. Well, you have this background. Um, in the work that you do, you bring a personal experience to that. And I really want to start there in people knowing about your story. You come from alcoholism. Um, I'm sure there were other addictions in the mix, but sharing your own story about addiction, um, what did that season in your life look like and and kind of what led up to that for you about what you've discovered?
Jeremy Mast (04:41)
Yeah, thanks for asking. So to make a very long story, hopefully it somewhat shorter, um, I started to use alcohol pretty regularly in grad school. I was in seminary my first year, I was studying biblical Greek of all things, intensively for the first quarter. I know
Jake Kastleman (05:01)
That was your major
Jeremy Mast (05:03)
in in seminary I I I I
was studying uh theology in and one of the courses that I was required to take in my master's of divinity program was biblical Greek. So I studied nothing but biblical Greek for ten weeks. If you could believe it, I can't believe it doesn't feel so like long ago now. But um
Jake Kastleman (05:21)
It's amazing.
Jeremy Mast (05:22)
yeah, uh grad school was of course extremely stressful. So when I went back home that Thanksgiving, I turned twenty-one that year, right around Thanksgiving. And so
Um my step brother and my um my step uh excuse me, my um stepfather and um and and his son, my um step brother, they introduced me to liquor. Hadn't had liquor for the at all before, of course. And so when I had that for the first time, I I felt this anxiety go away. I
Jake Kastleman (06:03)
Mm.
Jeremy Mast (06:03)
realized how I didn't
fully understand at the time, but I realized how um relieving that was for me. So when I went back in the into the pressure cooker of graduate school, I started drinking pretty regularly. It was it was pretty um it was pretty heavy and it was daily. Okay. Uh now, um as my drinking w continued and and it continued for quite some time. And during this same time, that's when I started using pornography a little bit, my
drinking always outpaced my pornography use. But um it was still very much there and um and and not nearly as habitual as my alcohol use was, but it it was still um certainly something I was deeply ashamed of, as I was also deeply ashamed about my drinking. So I kept all of that hidden. All of that was very private. Um
Jake Kastleman (06:57)
While you were going through that, did did you have any understanding that you did feel ashamed of those things or that you were hiding them? Did you feel that, or was that more unconscious?
Jeremy Mast (07:07)
I had some awareness that I was hiding things. I was certainly deeply ashamed of my pornography use. I said this on my episode on my podcast a a few weeks ago. Uh I was so sure that when I was accessing pornography, I was in my apartment at the seminary in seminary housing. And I was so sure that I was gonna get a email or like a knock on the door.
that that somehow I would be caught, that someone on the other end of my seminary provided internet access would find out and confront me somehow. I was terrified of that happening. And that's what my shame was telling me. And so I was keeping all of that very hidden. And my drinking was too, for the most part.
Jake Kastleman (07:59)
yes. Yeah. So and it it starts with that that secrecy and that hiding. Right. And so when you may have been going to share something else and I've interrupted you. Um but
Jeremy Mast (08:10)
No, you're good.
Jake Kastleman (08:11)
when did that start to shift for you out of secrecy, or when did you first start to reveal this to others, or what did that look like?
Jeremy Mast (08:21)
Mm. Yeah, I very soon started going to therapy and um and that continued for quite some time. I was in therapy for uh probably about gosh.
It must have been um about seven years that I was in therapy. And um I'd never done that before. And so when I went to therapy, I started to talk with someone who felt safe to me about these feelings that I was dealing with, the anxiety, the stress, the the drinking. I wasn't ready to change, but and and I I'll get to that in a minute, but the the shame started to lift a little bit.
Even though I was still very much entrenched in the behavior, very mired in the shame, it was um very helpful to h start to talk about what was happening uh in my inner experience with someone who wasn't going to judge me, that I could feel safe with, that that I knew that I could bring anything to without any judgment or fear of judgment.
Jake Kastleman (09:25)
Yes. We're gonna talk a lot about that and how powerful that was for you. and I kind of looking at that when when you look back what so when it comes to addiction, we're all both avoiding things and trying to experience things in like a pseudo way, whether it be pseudo connection or it be pseudo comfort or those things. Add addictions work relatively well.
to some degree. Otherwise we wouldn't use them, but they don't actually meet the deeper needs. So what were you trying to avoid? You talked about anxiety and what were you really trying to feel through both the alcohol and through the porn? It's probably a big question, but I'd love if you can cover some of it.
Jeremy Mast (10:12)
Yeah, what was I trying to feel? I I I'm sorry, my internet um got a little wobbly there, so I I missed part of what you said, but I heard you ask what was I trying to feel with using alcohol and pornography?
Jake Kastleman (10:22)
Yeah, what were you trying to avoid and what were you trying to to feel?
Jeremy Mast (10:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. Um, and and we don't talk about this a whole lot. I I really appreciate that question because that's something that uh that therapists like like me, that we we don't often think about the adaptive function of alcohol use, substance use, compulsive sexual behaviors. And and I really believe that that is why a lot of guys get tripped up when they start recovery. They might go back into the behaviors because they don't
have anything else to replace the the pornography use with. Me, I was trying to escape, of course, the stress that I was feeling. I was highly anxious. I was perfectionistic in my academic work. That continued for years and years. So I was trying to find a way to deal with stress, but unconsciously I was also trying to
become my own person. I didn't know it at the time, but I was still a bit enmeshed with with my mom. And and by enmeshment I mean I I felt um like I had to uh take care of her, I had to prioritize her needs or my own. I had difficulty knowing what my needs and feelings were. And so alcohol was a way of rebelling against that role and coming out of that role and doing my own thing.
even if it was a shame based behavior that um made me feel worse ultimately. But as a way for me to uh assert my own self and my own and create a sense of autonomy, even if it was in reaction to her and the enmeshment that I was experiencing.
Jake Kastleman (12:08)
Common would you say that pattern is for guys, this enmeshment piece?
Jeremy Mast (12:14)
I see it all the time. See it all the time. All the time. All the time. And usually uh i it's not always the case that when there's some kind of pornography addiction, there's enmeshment. Okay, that that that's that's not always the case by any means, but when there's enmeshment, there is very, very commonly some kind of an addiction. And the reason that is, is because in enmeshment, if you're so accustomed to suppressing your own needs.
That's gotta go somewhere. And so we turn to some secret behavior in order to f find some way of getting our needs back, even if it's at a great cost. And pornography use, compulsive behaviors, substance use always comes at a cost, of course. So
Jake Kastleman (13:00)
Yeah.
Jeremy Mast (13:01)
that I was stuck in that for a long time.
Jake Kastleman (13:04)
It's it's what I see constantly too, and and you shared a little bit about this, but when you say enmeshment, let's explain to people for who are completely unfamiliar.
Jeremy Mast (13:12)
Yeah, great question. So enmeshment means that I am in a obligatory relationship with the person that I'm enmeshed with with. I feel uh that I have to prioritize their needs above my own. I have to and and I feel obligated to do that. So as you can imagine, that's a very um anxious and and stressful position to be in.
Okay, and and it means that guys uh have uh a lot of difficulty becoming their own person, feel knowing what they feel, uh knowing what they want, having some kind of uh
feeling purpose or direction in their lives. Their their lives can revolve around caring for uh or the enmeasment relationship. And again, it's driven by an internal contract that says, I have to do this for you, even though I'm greatly resentful about it. Probably. Okay. I might not be, but I probably am. If I'm not, I getting becoming aware of that resentment is uh is is a really critical part of the process.
a feeling from enmeshment. So I feel guilty when I don't take care of you. When I start to prioritize my needs, that that characterizes enmeshment.
Jake Kastleman (14:37)
Yeah. And I I've been through some of these things personally too. And um and it took me years and years this and truly only the only the last couple of years have I really come to understand some of those patterns. And I like that you say I see it all the time because I see it all the time with clients as well. And I think it's so hard sometimes sometimes it's more obvious.
when you ask men about this and you explain the pattern, but other times it's not, right? And they don't see it until, you know, maybe years into therapy or into coaching, and they're like, my gosh, I didn't even I didn't even realize this. This was just an unspoken thing that was going on all the time, or a burden that I carried that I didn't realize was there. And they're and then we're carrying it into our marriages and our other adult relationships, right?
And it's this constant pressure that's there unconsciously.
Jeremy Mast (15:38)
Absolutely. Yeah. And it it's something that not all therapists are trained to recognize. So it can go under the radar easily for quite a while. Usually guys will not seek out therapy for the enmeshment. They'll they'll seek out therapy for some problem created by the enmeshment. If they're seeking out therapy at all. Usually it's their partners dragging them to marriage therapy, right? Saying
Uh you know, I I feel so much frustration and resentment toward my my husband because I I don't feel like I mat my feelings matter to him. He's um we we go to all these family functions, or you know, whatever. Um and uh there's there's a clear imbalance there because his primary loyalty is to his family of origin, his primary loyalty is to his mother. And when the uh wives, partners will feel the
disloyalty to them. They end up paying the price when the husband is enmeshed.
Jake Kastleman (16:40)
Yeah, that resonates. That resonates. Pa again, patterns for me that I've had to recognize and begin to grow out of, right? It took time and a lot of takes a lot of pain often to realize those.
I want to take a few minutes of your time to just share a story of one of my clients. Because if you're someone who's been battling with porn addiction yourself and you're feeling stuck, I know that you relate to this. My client Gabe came to me discouraged about the impact his porn use was having on his life. It got in the way of his work, his productivity, it made him feel more distant from his wife and kids, and it caused him to experience brain fog, lack of motivation, and a lack of confidence. Gabe was a good man, he valued his family.
He had a good job, he had ambition, he could even get a decent streak of sobriety sometimes, but nothing long lasting. Gabe's problem was not discipline. It was a lack of knowledge and skill. He didn't understand how to regulate emotion and train his nervous system properly, so that things like cravings, anger, and other painful emotions didn't take him over. By the time he finished work with me, Gabe had five months of sobriety without a single relapse, his perspective on life had changed dramatically.
And for the first time, he felt fully connected and in harmony with his principles and who he was. I'm going to share a few of his words directly. I would leave every session with Jake feeling like my eyes had been opened to a new level of understanding that changed my self-talk, my relationship with my spouse, and my ability to connect with my children. The program felt incrementally tailored to my needs and had the exact building blocks to have a sober lifestyle and mindset. I've kept in touch with Gabe since this.
His success has continued and he is now nine months sober, and I'm really happy for him. Gabe's story is one of many. Men who've joined my intensive coaching program and experienced sobriety. If you want to join these men, dig deep and finally be sober for good. Head to nomordesire.com slash coaching to learn more. All right, back to the show, my friend.
What questions do you think guys can start to ask themselves to realize what their addiction to pornography or otherwise is doing for them?
Jeremy Mast (19:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I encourage folks to think about it in terms of what are you escaping from? Okay. I gave the example of my stress. Uh, usually pornography, it has a numbing effect. So usually it's to get rid of some kind of feeling that they don't want to feel. Some way of feeling that less or or not at all. So what am I escaping from? But what also am I
Escaping too. That's the adaptive function, right? And and and I uh gave you a very therapisty answer for how that applies to me. But
Jake Kastleman (19:49)
It's great. It was a good one.
Jeremy Mast (19:53)
But for example, okay. Um because pornography uh is ultimately about meeting intimacy needs, which sounds bananas, okay. But
Jake Kastleman (20:04)
Yes. Right.
Jeremy Mast (20:06)
right? Okay. So so I'm watching pornography, usually because ah I don't feel safe being vulnerable or creating the intimacy that I really want with
my loved one or with other people.
I don't want to risk what I'm afraid probably unconsciously will happen if I try to do that. Uh and so so what I'm gonna do instead is I'm going to turn to pornography. Uh because uh and and this is what men do, okay, we sexualize our intimacy needs. We do. Okay. it's uh it it it's just how we're built. Okay. So so talk, talk and talk.
Jake Kastleman (20:51)
Talk a little more about that, because I know there's a lot of guys listening that are like, wait, what do you mean by that? Right.
Jeremy Mast (20:58)
Yeah, we feel close when we're sexual.
Jake Kastleman (21:02)
Hmm.
Jeremy Mast (21:03)
We experience connection sexually first. Okay, that is just how we are we are wired. Now we we and that's and that's how we're that's how we're socialized as men, unfortunately in our culture. We need, okay, to develop capacity, greater capacity as men for emotional and intimacy, for regulating our feelings, for sharing and communicating our feelings with with others, with other men, with with our partners especially, okay.
And so because we uh sexualize our attachment needs, okay, our our intimacy needs, okay, and in in in intimacy I'm I'm I'm talking about relational intimacy, I'm not talking about physical intimacy, I'm talking about sex, okay. So because we sexualize our intima uh intimacy needs, it's it's a it's a pretty easy thing to turn to pornography as a risk free way, relatively risk free way of getting intimacy needs met, in quotes.
Jake Kastleman (22:01)
Quote
un mm-hmm.
Jeremy Mast (22:03)
Right. So so I and I don't know that I'm doing this consciously. Okay, I'm I'm talking about this in the first person as if I were, you know, one of your listeners here. I don't may don't necessarily realize that I'm doing this, but I'm turning to my to pornography to feel some kind of connection, some kind of feeling of being wanted or desired. Because I'm I'm and again, I'm not aware that I'm doing this, but I'm projecting
onto the performer that I'm seeing. Okay, this is why I don't want to get graphic here, but but this is why um, for example, uh the the genre point of view pornography. Okay. Where where it's in the first person, I mean you're you're you're actually um it's another way of being immersed in the in the so called sexual experience. Okay. But that's but that's why, for example, that genre exists because
That gives me firsthand this feeling of being desired or wanted. Okay, whatever whatever that is, thinking about what did I not get consistently when I was young that I might be looking to pornography now to feel a bit more of, right? Maybe I I I don't know about you, but I I grew up feeling inadequate. I grew up feeling unlovable. Okay. So
To um to experience, okay, even if it's on a screen and even if it's not me, it gives me some sort of experience of, you know, sexually being desired, feeling important. Okay. This is why, for example, um, this is why the the face is the most erotic part on a woman's body for a man. Okay, because we we um we we need to feel
Wanted and accepted and and that our partner enjoys being with us. Okay. That's why most men, they're not looking at body parts on the woman. When they watch porn, they're looking at her face. Okay. And we're we're doing that uh in in part because we we we need to feel important to her, but we're also making sure that she's enjoying herself with the porn. Okay. And and and we do this with our partners too, okay. It's important that they
Because if she is enjoying herself, then I don't have to feel guilty about bringing my intimacy needs to her. I don't have to have anxiety about that. I do in real life. Okay. I'm scared to death to do this with my partner. But in this safe, controlled environment, I can click on a video and know what I'm gonna get. Okay. Now it's truncated intimacy. It's not real. Uh and and
And we in on some level know that it's that it's fantasy. Okay. Um you know, and and if you want, we could talk a little bit more about about the of the varying degrees of fantasy. People um have have different ways of uh engaging porn different genres that they want because of of uh the the the degree of fantasy that they're seeking out. But um but that's how people can start to think about how
Their pornography use might be in some way adaptive. So the key is okay, this is what porn is doing for me. If I can identify the adaptive function, then I need to figure out ways of meeting those emotional needs without porn in my life. um It's a key, key part of recovery. And to the extent that I don't, I'm gonna continue to feel isolated and alone. My shame is still gonna uh hang like a millstone around my neck.
Okay. And and I'm probably gonna continue to have trouble with this behavior. Okay. That's why that's why we need to address not just the behavior through uh behavioral interventions, but we also need to look at the emotional and psychological um components of what's happening here. Why does the behavior perpetuate in this way?
Jake Kastleman (26:14)
Yeah. Such powerful insights and so important for guys. And I think um I think again they can be so hard to recognize. And one of the things that I've seen guys really need, and I'm not the only one, you know, shouting this from the rooftops, if you will, is we we need brotherhood. We r we really need brotherhood. Um you know, I know for me I had uh very distant
relationships with my brothers. And also they kind of played the criticism and and, you know, when I'd express emotion on things, they were, you know, making fun of me, things like that. A lot of things that older brothers can really get into patterns of. Right. And I and I think that for some people it's their parents, for some people it's their siblings. Um, for some people it's other family members or other significant relationships. But
When we find brotherhood and we find this place to be vulnerable and we feel like um one of my friends recently was saying, I feel like a a man among men, right? That he he grew up not feeling like he fit in among men. And then by going to retreats and by partaking in, you know, actually getting into brotherhoodhood, he started to feel that way. We need to feel that. Um we need to feel that sense of masculinity and we need to feel that sense of connection.
And togetherness, you know. And I think that was more built into culture, um, to some degree. I don't know, hundreds of years ago or depending on the culture. We've really lost it. And there's a lot of demand for I think now, um, and retreats and things like that I think are becoming more more popular because we need it.
Jeremy Mast (28:06)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's it's something that we pretty readily discount as men and say, I don't need that, but then when we experience it, it's oh we realize what we've missed.
Jake Kastleman (28:19)
Yeah, exactly. Well, I wanna um shift a little bit, Jeremy, to something that you talk a lot about. Um, this is the kind of autonomy versus coercion. Uh, especially for betrayed spouses, they can easily get into this state of just feeling so concerned and so worried. Um, both about their spouse who is addicted to pornography and then also about themselves. When am I gonna get my needs met? What h look what he's doing to me. He's he's causing me so much pain.
Um, and so they can get into this state of of trying to force that healing. And heck, I mean, why wouldn't you? You're you're so incredibly concerned and in so much pain. Why does coercion and pressure not ultimately help people recover? And um why does that make the problem worse? We'll s we'll start there and then we can get into some other questions on it. Yeah, sure.
Jeremy Mast (29:14)
That's a great question. Um so
First of all, nobody be likes being told what to do. Nobody likes being coerced. Nobody likes being controlled. And coercion is generally not a great way to make requests for change behavior. We go through a th this is called the the stages of change. Okay. We go through a series of stages whenever we make any kind of change in our lives. There's pre-contemplation when we're not aware that there's a change that needs to be made, contemplation where aware of change.
Um, but we are deciding on how we want to address that change. So we're thinking about it, preparation, just what it sounds like. We're preparing to make changes, action. We put our plan that we created into in in the preparation stage into action and then maintenance. So maintaining that change, going uh the distance in, supporting that change and the habits that sustain that change. Coercion does not move a person through those stages.
Okay. We can we can help to um shape behavior and help a person move along through those stages, but uh it coercion uh can't force a person through those changes. Okay, so so I I I say that both to um men who are uh thinking about getting help, uh, thinking about uh and you know, getting into coaching or therapy or something like that.
That's something that uh therapists like me are are often trained to work with, um, helping a person move through those stages of change to create positive change. for partners who have been betrayed. I couldn't have said it better myself. You I mean, you said it wonderfully, Jake. Uh partners, my heart goes out to them. It breaks my heart what they uh are are going through the pain that they're facing. At the same time, I always stress.
self care with partners. Because you can't control your partner ultimately, uh, and and to the extent that you do, you're probably going to feel powerless and resentful. Okay. That's why, because you can't control his behavior ultimately, you can't control yourself. So taking care of yourself, because you've probably been uh traumatized to some degree by his behavior.
And and the lies involved, by the way. Okay.
You also can um in addition to self-care, focus on creating boundaries. Okay. So how do I take care of myself in this relationship? If there's an ongoing active addiction or there's compulsive behavior, I need to figure out ways of caring for myself. Okay. If you are not, if I I can ask you to um make some changes, but if you're not, then what am I willing to do to meet the need that was behind my request? Right.
And that's where boundaries come in. It's like, well, if you're not going to uh stop watching porn, then because of that, I think I need to get into therapy myself to deal with the pain that this is causing me. Okay. That's a very simple example. All right. Um, but I really stress those two things with partners. Mm-hmm. And so that's where autonomy comes in, creating a sense of empowerment in myself. I know that my uh I'm not able to control his behavior, but what can I do?
To empower myself and create choices for myself in this difficult situation.
Jake Kastleman (32:57)
So good. And I I can imagine a natural question for spouses, right, is okay, yes, Jeremy, I can do those things and that can be very helpful. Is there anything I can do? You t you talk about in your story the therapists you worked with, how they really um you mentioned this earlier too, they really instilled in you this great sense of autonomy, right? And this this sense of safety. Um for a lot of spouses, they first off.
emotionally they feel they can't create that space of safety because they're feeling extremely unsafe. Um but what can they do to either to to influence or to support or to help their addicted spouse move into a place where they're ready to get help, or there are questions they can ask or things that they can do or actions they can take.
Jeremy Mast (33:54)
Yeah. So what what I hear you asking is uh how do I support my partner who's having a problem with pornography or you know some other sexual behavior? Uh and and I have found out about that. How do I support him and and help him move into taking action to get help? Yeah. That's a great question. So going back to the stages of change, okay, I just wanna um recognize that if if that's you
Okay, if you're listening to this and that's maybe the partner there. Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (34:25)
Repeat repeat those stages one more time. I think there were four or five of them.
Jeremy Mast (34:28)
Sure, yeah. So pre contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance. Five stages. Okay. It's it's something like the the trans theoretical model of change or the theory of change. It's some very long, boring title. Okay, but I can't remember who who created it, okay.
Jake Kastleman (34:50)
Very impractical title. Very
Jeremy Mast (34:54)
I think the I think the researchers were uh oh prochaska and declemente. Okay, don't quote me on that, but okay, but so you're probably talking about a husband or partner who's either in pre contemplation, more than likely he's in contemplation, right? He knows this is a problem, he's noising he knows that he's causing this distress, probably feels a lot of shame about it. Right. So so in contemplation, um there are a number of key strategies that we can use.
Okay, so um providing first of all, providing um gentle education. Okay, hey, I came across this article. Would you do do you mind if I share it with you? Okay. Checking in, uh asking for asking for permission. Okay. Can I share some thoughts with you about this? Okay, it's it's gonna be a sensitive topic. Okay, I don't want you to avoid it because you he needs to know and and you need to know that you can talk about this with him to the extent that you can't uh
it it's just gonna create shame uh for him and and resentment for you, right? So providing gentle education, asking for for permission are two great strategies. Um letting him gently know how this affects you. Okay. It's probably going to trigger shame in him, but
Some remorse, some shame is appropriate here.
Jake Kastleman (36:21)
What can No, you go ahead and then I'll ask a qu
Jeremy Mast (36:25)
Yeah, yeah. There's a there's a difference between healthy shame healthy shame and toxic shame. Healthy shame is what I feel when I know that I've done something wrong or that's hurtful to my loved one. Okay. Healthy shame is a recognition of that harm, and it is an invitation, it is a feeling that invites me to take action to get back into the right relationship. Okay. So
Healthy sense of remorse, some guilt, that that's that's healthy shame. Okay. Toxic shame or unhealthy shame is a negative, distorted self-image about our identity. Okay. So toxic shame is what we experience when we tell ourselves stories like I'm worthless, I'm not lovable, I'm no good, I can't do anything right. Nothing I do is ever good enough. Okay.
A lot of guys who struggle with these behaviors struggle with toxic shame. Okay, but that doesn't mean that all shame is bad. It just means we need help with learning to regulate our shame and heal from it as a part of our recovery.
Jake Kastleman (37:38)
And I and I think about my own life, you know, with perfectionism as one of my big protectors that I set up, right? And uh early, early on, right, as a child. And I didn't recognize until I was in my twenties studying Brene Brown, where she talked about how perfectionism is a way of avoiding the feeling of shame. That really that just uh blew my mind when I started to recognize, oh my goodness.
I I have such an unhealthy relationship to the feeling of shame. I can't even approach it, right? Is what I started to realize. I I tried to bar that feeling at all costs. And what I began to realize, again, after years of education and understanding, we all feel shame, every single one of us to varying degrees and varying levels of intensity. Am I willing to witness that shame in me and and welcome it? Can I?
Be with it, listen to it, feel it, be present with it. And I think so many of us who've been in addiction for, you know, for me it was a decade. For other guys, it's been decades. I was one I was one of the fortunate ones. Um we get into this habit of of not feeling those feelings at all. We experience them for sure, but we don't consciously allow them in or work through them. We just try to mask them constantly every day. And so
For that spouse who's gonna I love what you said about the invitation and you know understanding that that a healthy level of shame can be a part of that, right? For their spouse, their spouse who's addicted feeling that what can they anticipate? Because again, uh a lot of us are very bad, right, when we've been recovering from addiction or we're trying to work on that very bad at feeling shame. What can they anticipate an emotional response would be from their addicted spouse, right?
In that moment.
Jeremy Mast (39:36)
Yeah, that's a great question. So um
Jake Kastleman (39:39)
And and and also how can they handle that? I think would be the the question as well.
Jeremy Mast (39:43)
So so your your your partner's natural reaction is probably going to be one of uh toxic shame. So that means that he may um you may feel him pull inside himself emotionally. Yeah, I mean you'll you'll sort of feel that and you'll see his um slight physical withdrawal. He might go silent, he might uh look away, uh look at the floor. Uh shame. Um gosh, I can't remember the research now but on this, but um
Shame is that feeling of sort of disappearing into the floor, right? You're sort of it's it's a it's a disag disintegrating feeling. Like we feel like we're dissolving, quite literally, right? That's the that's the felt experience of shame. And so you'll see that manifest physically. He looks away, he looks down, he goes quiet, um, he um withdraws physically. It'll certainly get quiet um verbally. And and and so when you
Sense that reaction.
Finding some very loving way of providing reassurance. Okay, so so taking his hand, putting putting your uh hand on your in and this is this is this is hard. Gosh,
Jake Kastleman (40:57)
okay.
Jeremy Mast (40:58)
because we're asking this is a big ask. I I know. Um but I'm gonna blame you 'cause you asked the question, Jake. Perfect.
Jake Kastleman (41:08)
the blame on me.
Jeremy Mast (41:11)
but you know, finding
Um finding that that compassionate place in your heart for for a guy who's struggling, the and and reaching out from that compassionate place. Fri I I know this is hard for you. I know it's pain it's painful for you to hear how this affects me. uh But I I also really want to be honest with you because that's what I want for our marriage.
Jake Kastleman (41:39)
Uh it's it's powerful and it is um it is so hard. It is so, so hard. And for some spouses they they may not be in a place where they even feel capable of doing that right now, right? Which would be the hope that um this man could work with professionals, get in groups, right, uh, get that outside support. And and they can't be that sole provider of the compassion.
And the in the space of emotional safety. They just they just can't meet all those needs. And and I think sometimes those of us who struggle with with addiction, we think that they should be, maybe because we were missing that from our mother, or or or maybe we had that and she was kind of the one who provided it all and asked nothing in return. It just depends on what the pattern was. But sh their spouse can't provide all that, right? But I think they can practice.
Oh, moving into that pain and maybe doing doing that to whatever extent they they can.
Jeremy Mast (42:40)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (42:43)
So really good. We could talk so much more about this. I want to talk about harm reduction. Um, because we've talked about kind of empowering this autonomy. Harm reduction, a term that I I when I learned about it, it just again, another blew my mind, right? A lot of addiction recovery is framed in in very all or nothing terms, right? What is harm reduction and what does it offer that's a different, uh different way of thinking about recovery?
Jeremy Mast (43:14)
I love that question. So harm reduction is a way of f first of all, y you'll see harm reduction uh referred to as a set of social policies regarding substance use. Okay. And so when we talk about harm reduction here, we're talking about harm reduction psychotherapy, the psychotherapeutic approach. Uh and it's
Therapeutic stance. Okay. So harm reduction is is a way of working with uh addictive and uh compulsive behaviors in substance misuse that stresses that any change that's positive is just that positive, okay, even incremental change. Harm reduction stresses uh meeting the person wherever they are in their journey of recovery.
Even if it's in pre-contemplation or contemplation if they're not ready to change, harm reduction therapy, uh as opposed to how uh I was taught, I was taught that I I shouldn't see someone who's actively struggling with addiction. I think that's crazy. I mean, why would I ask the person to be sober from the very thing that they're wanting my help with? Right. So so uh harm reduction um i meets the
Jake Kastleman (44:33)
Can can can you can you touch more on that? Why would I expect that? Can you can you say more about that?
Jeremy Mast (44:39)
Yeah. ah
Jake Kastleman (44:42)
I think especially for spouses, this is a maybe a hard one to understand. So I'm really thinking about that.
Jeremy Mast (44:48)
Yeah, that's a great point. So a person who struggles with uh alcohol use, for example, or or pornography use, okay, they've used this behavior for for much of their lives to manage the unmanageable emotionally. It's an emotional regulation strategy, ultimately. Okay, these behaviors. And they're creating problems in my life. Okay. My my maybe my
behavior is out of control to the point where it qualifies clinically as an addiction. Okay. If I as a therapist say, I need you to be sober before I'm going to help you.
Jake Kastleman (45:30)
I've actually heard therapists say that, by the way. Clients have told me that their par therapist
Jeremy Mast (45:34)
I
know it it's it's tragic and it makes me really angry. Because where am I gonna get help then? I'm coming to you for help and you're essentially shutting the door in my face. Now I know addiction can be really scary. Uh I mean alcohol addiction, uh substance use, i it it can be really terrifying to work with. Um and and so as therapists we need to make sure that we have the training and and and we
um the the ability to manage that risk. That's why it's called harm reduction, because we're seeking to reduce the harm that's associated with active use until which time a person is ready to change. Right. Thankfully we you know we don't with with pornography we don't have to worry about too much risk. I mean sometimes there are health concerns so forth, but um but with uh other forms of compulsive sexual behaviors, you know, that can be a a huge risk to one's freedom, one's health, one's uh
Career, uh family life, uh marriage, I mean everything, right? So um so I I embrace harm reduction. oh and one very important note about harm reduction, harm reduction when working with substance misuse, you'll if you go online, you'll read about this, okay? It it embraces abstinence, but it also because it values uh any kind of change as positive, uh, it also embraces
uh approaches that that don't include abstinence, okay, moderate use, okay, uh or or reduce that's um excuse me, use that's safe. Okay. I want to stress that that's not appropriate for sexual behaviors. Okay. Pornography. It some people can eventually uh revisit that, okay. But but for those who struggle with these behaviors, that that's not a part of harm reduction approach.
Okay, so just want to be really clear about that for for partners and for uh guys who are listening to this. All right. Um so what's what's different about the harm reduction approach is that um even and especially if you're actively struggling with ongoing relapse or compulsive behaviors or substance misuse, we welcome that. You are welcome. Okay. More than that, we seek to understand
the functions of the behavior or substance use in your life. Okay. Traditional approaches take a generally take a more judgmental approach um and view the behavior as something bad or something to get rid of. Well, it's obviously from my perspective, it's something you want to change, but it's also served some function in your life for quite a while, or else you would keep doing it.
So I wanna understand first because if I seek to understand and I seek to have compassion for you, over time you can start to learn to have compassion for yourself. And that's where healing starts.
Jake Kastleman (48:45)
And I think that's so key. What you've said, you know, IFS and parts work has helped me a great deal with that, as it has so many millions of people at this point. Um, because it did serve a function. And I think if we knew someone's story from beginning to present, we would just feel nothing but deep love and compassion for them. And well, my gosh, no wonder you picked up this behavior, this habit.
It felt like the only choice you had when you were eleven years old or eight years old or whatever it was.
Jeremy Mast (49:18)
Yeah, love that.
Jake Kastleman (49:20)
Yeah, it's it's important. It's important. So um we probably won't have time to hit on each of these, but you I'm gonna I'm gonna touch on four things that you emphasize, and I may not say them exact the way you that you say them, but um when it comes to recovery, um when it comes to um this harm reduction approach or just celebrating any level of change, right? You're the center for integrative change, right? So we're
Trying to integrate uh all the the shadow and the light all together into who we are to be able to become a whole person. You emphasize curiosity instead of confrontation, choice instead of control, collaboration instead of compliance, and compassion instead of shame. Uh so good. So good. Um are there any of those that maybe a couple of them that we want to dive into a little bit more?
Or that you'd like to discuss a little bit more.
Jeremy Mast (50:22)
Yeah. What comes to mind for me when you go through that is
How we are born to be in relationships.
We are born to be in relationship. We are wired that way. We are wired to attach. And I think it's much more helpful to think about in terms of addictive behaviors, compulsive behaviors. I have a I I I I I think it's um much more helpful to say I have a relationship with alcohol versus I have an addiction with alcohol. It's
Jake Kastleman (50:58)
Mm. I like it.
Jeremy Mast (50:59)
pathological, it it it's it it's it's there's a great deal of stigma, okay.
uh i you and i both don't with that word, right? I wish we didn't have that word. I d I wish we didn't I I I I wish that the the the common vernacular didn't include sex addiction. It's much more clinically accurate to describe these behaviors as compulsive sexual behaviors. That is the most current language that that we use. But sex addiction, pornography addiction that that is uh it's you know
saturate our culture now and and so I I get it. We've got to use something, right? But but to think about my relationship with alcohol, my relationship with pornography, that means I can change that relationship. That means I have choices about that relationship. That means I can um do something different in this relationship. And as I shift my relationship with alcohol, with pornography, for example, okay
I can also shift my relationship with my spouse. As I learn to be less intimate, so to speak, with my behavior or my substance of choice, I can also learn as I heal to become increasingly intimate with my partner in such a way that actually gives me what I'm looking for, but was never able to fully experience, certainly not with pornography.
Jake Kastleman (52:30)
And would you say one of the things I think of is such a large aspect of recovery? You said we are born for relationship. As we change and transform those relationships with our spouse or our brothers, our community, our family, siblings, parents. That is the healing work that then simultaneously, I think, our our addiction or our relationship to these behaviors begins to shift where
You know, I don't know that I need this so much eventually, right? I don't know that I need this in my life so much anymore because this has taken up that space. It's changed the way that I feel as a person about myself, about the world, about those around me. So I don't need to engage in this relationship anymore. That's really a relationship of usury, right? Where I'm using this thing to make me feel.
Okay or safe or connected, et cetera.
Jeremy Mast (53:31)
Mm. Exactly. Yeah. If if I and and and this is this is not easy, okay. This is a uh you know, healing is always a process, but but um what you just said has been clinically verified. Okay. Do you do you know the do you know about the Rat Park experiment? Yeah. Yeah, mm hmm, right? Yes, for those of us for those listeners who don't know, okay, what they what th this was um I can't remember the date on this experiment, but
They they took a group of rats, okay. The one they put one group in one cage and another in a second cage. In the first cage, there was uh water available that was lightly laced with drugs. Okay. Very light. Um, not harmful or deadly to rats, but they put that water available in the cage and and nothing else in the cage. Okay. In the second cage, they they essentially created a theme park for rats. It's like a like like
Harry Potter World but for rats, okay. You can tell I I I really want to go to Harry Potter World and I've never been a face, so um just just
Jake Kastleman (54:36)
Jeremy. Yes, that is my dream as well. So
Jeremy Mast (54:40)
I hear you. So so so um you know, so these rats are are uh run around Diagon Alley, okay, enjoying themselves f uh all the things that rats love to do. And guess what? The rats in the first cage got addicted to the water. Rats in the second cage couldn't care less about it because they had fulfilling lies.
Their lives were enriched. So you're absolutely right. We we we don't get sober from porn. We outgrow it.
Jake Kastleman (55:18)
Hm. Yes. Yes. I can't help but think about um one of my colleagues, Drew Boa. He recently wrote wrote a book last year called Outgrow Porn. And yes
Jeremy Mast (55:29)
yeah. really?
Jake Kastleman (55:30)
yes, that literal title. And it's it's it's so true. We we outgrow it. And I and I think in so many ways we um
Another person described that I talked to said, pornography addiction recovery is about this journey from boyhood to manhood. And this can sound harsh, but I also think it's extremely powerful where we carry all these wounds from our boyhood. And I feel like a boy inside in many ways. I may behave like a boy consistently. You know, I may be 45 years old and I'm still behaving emotionally like a 14 year old.
when a lot of these addictions started. Yeah. And I need to to go through the healing process to to learn to become a man, to feel like a man, to feel that I'm significant, important, that my life is meaningful, that I'm connected, that I feel cherished by those around me and I cherish those around me. Right.
Jeremy Mast (56:33)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's um that's beautiful.
Jake Kastleman (56:40)
Well, Jeremy, what a joy to have you on. Thank you for everything you've shared today, man. I know it will help so many guys and their families, their spouses. If people want to connect with you, they want to go to the center of integrative change, do any of the things that you have to offer. I will put links in the show notes, but where can somebody start?
Jeremy Mast (56:58)
Yeah, thanks for asking. We are uh the Center for Integrative Change, so you can look us up, Center for Integrative with a V change or CIC freeconsole dot com will we'll get you there too. Uh we are in California, Pennsylvania, uh Colorado, and Oregon. Um, but we uh offer coaching outside of those states. So um we'd love to hear from you.
Jake Kastleman (57:23)
Mm. Excellent. And you are you are the founder of the Center for Integrative Change.
Jeremy Mast (57:29)
Yeah.
Doesn't that sound fun?
Jake Kastleman (57:35)
I love that so much. That just makes my heart happy that you said it that way. Yes, it does sound important. So but
Jeremy Mast (57:41)
But
Jake Kastleman (57:42)
but truly um something just wonderful that you've built. Uh and and so as one professional to another, like I it's it's inspiring. So thanks. Well done and and thank you again for coming on, man.
Jeremy Mast (57:54)
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.
Jake Kastleman (57:59)
Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. And if you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Corn.
Or my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome corn addiction. And you can find them at NomorDesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of corn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building.
that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.
Everything expressed on the No More Desire Podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or a desire to harm others,
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