How to Rebuild Trust After Porn Addiction and Betrayal Trauma: 8 Tools That Actually Work
- Jake Kastleman
- Apr 29
- 45 min read
What if your marriage could not only survive porn addiction and betrayal—but become stronger, safer, and more honest than ever before?
If you're in the middle of healing from porn addiction, or you're a spouse reeling from betrayal trauma, you probably already know how complicated this path can feel. Trust is shattered. Emotions are raw. You're trying to rebuild something that may have never felt fully secure to begin with.
But healing is possible. And in this article, you’ll learn eight practical tools that can help you rebuild trust, intimacy, and self-responsibility in your marriage.
These tools are inspired by the powerful story and teachings of Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith, a couple who experienced deep relational trauma from porn addiction—and went on to build a thriving relationship rooted in emotional safety and authentic intimacy.
Let’s dive in.
Want a printable version of these 8 tools? Download my free guide based on this episode:
Also, checkout the free download from the Raabsmith Team, which helps couple's form a better connection and heal their relationship:
It’s a powerful tool for couples looking to heal—together or individually.
1. End the Secrecy—Truth Begins the Healing
Many struggling with porn addiction live a double life: one public, one hidden. This split creates internal shame and emotional distance from their partner.
The first step in healing is full honesty. Telling the truth, even if it feels like it might end the relationship, is actually the beginning of rebuilding it.
Tool: Be radically honest. No more half-truths, soft disclosures, or delayed confessions. Trust can only grow in the soil of truth.
2. Recognize Betrayal Trauma as Real Trauma
For the spouse, discovering porn addiction can feel like an earthquake. Betrayal trauma isn't just emotional pain—it's a deep psychological wound that can cause symptoms similar to PTSD.
Hypervigilance, flashbacks, distrust, and emotional flooding are not signs of weakness. They are evidence that the body and brain are reacting to a devastating breach of trust.
Tool: Validate the spouse’s trauma. Seek out betrayal trauma-specific resources. Understand that real healing takes time, safety, and compassion.
3. Break the Cycle of Control and Passivity
A common dynamic: the betrayed partner takes charge—doing the research, setting appointments, checking devices—while the addicted partner remains passive.
This leads to resentment on both sides and reinforces unhealthy power dynamics.
Tool: Both partners must take full responsibility. The betrayed spouse is not the addicted partner’s recovery manager. The addicted partner must pursue healing of their own will.
4. Set Boundaries, Not Control
Boundaries are not ultimatums or attempts to control. They are personal commitments to self-protection and healing.
In a recovering marriage, both partners need to understand what makes the relationship safe—and what makes it unsafe.
Tool: Define your personal boundaries (e.g., "I will not stay in a relationship where there is ongoing deception"). Also express relational requests (e.g., "I need regular, voluntary transparency about your recovery work").
Healthy boundaries create a framework for rebuilding trust.
5. Choose Ownership Over Victimhood
One of the most dangerous mindsets in addiction recovery is victim thinking: “This is just how I am.” “I act out because of my stress.” “I wouldn’t do this if you weren’t so distant.”
None of these thoughts lead to freedom from porn.
Tool: Own your story. You may not be responsible for everything that shaped your addiction, but you are responsible for your healing. The power to change your life starts with full accountability.
6. Become a Safe Partner Through Self-Care
Addiction is often a symptom of deeper neglect—physical, emotional, spiritual, and relational. If you want to rebuild trust, you must become someone who is grounded, consistent, and emotionally available.
Tool: Practice daily self-care. Sleep well. Eat clean. Move your body. Pray or meditate. Go to group. See a therapist. Do the hard emotional work of recovery.
When you show up safe and whole, your relationship has a real chance to heal.
7. Rebuild Trust with Consistency, Not Promises
Trust is not rebuilt through apologies or declarations of love. It is rebuilt through observable, consistent action over time.
The betrayed partner needs to see the change, not be told about it.
Tool: Be transparent without being asked. Follow through on what you say you’ll do. Show up to recovery work voluntarily. Let trust be earned—not demanded.
8. Don’t Do It Alone—Get Support
Trying to heal from porn addiction or betrayal trauma without guidance is like trying to do heart surgery on yourself. It’s not wise—and it’s not necessary.
Tool: Find professional support. Work with a coach or therapist experienced in betrayal trauma and sex addiction. Join a group. Surround yourself with people who are for your marriage and against the addiction—not against one another.
Free Resources: Download the Healing Tool Guides
Want a printable version of these 8 tools? Download my free guide based on this episode:
It’s a powerful tool for couples looking to heal—together or individually.
Also, checkout the free download from the Raabsmith Team, which helps couple's form a better connection and heal their relationship:
Final Thoughts: There Is a Path Forward
You don’t have to stay stuck in pain, confusion, or imbalance. Whether you’re recovering from addiction, betrayal, or both, there is hope.
It will take truth. It will take ownership. It will take boundaries, consistency, and care.
But the trust you rebuild will be stronger than the trust that was lost—because this time, it will be based on honesty, integrity, and mutual growth.
Need support? Visit nomoredesire.com to learn more about my coaching programs, tools, and community.
Click here to connect with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith or order their book Building True Intimacy
Episode 94 Transcription: From Half a Husband to a Whole Marriage | How to Rebuild Trust After Porn Addiction and Betrayal
Jake Kastleman (00:32.04)
Tell people about you guys, kind of what you do and what brought you into this field.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (00:42.924)
Yeah. So Matthew and Joanna Rapsmith, we kind of run a coaching practice for couples who are in what we call recovery. So individuals who are dealing with addiction, spouses who've been impacted by addiction, infidelity, betrayal, but who really want to see their relationship restored and healed. we, one of the things we love about our
is we get to be kind of couples helping couples. So what's kind of neat about our team is everybody who works for us is part of a marriage that has been through what all of our clients have been through and has also trained themselves professionally to help people along the way. And that's kind of what happened to us. We went through the experience of addiction and it really...
ruining and just kind of disintegrating the trust of our relationship and we when we were going
process, we were really motivated to heal not only ourselves individually, but ultimately the relationship. And it was a bumpy journey at best at times. And so, and so that really led us to think about like, do, how do we help other couples really find a better way? And one of the things that we've done to help couples is also to develop a framework for helping them understand what the healing journey looks like. It's called the intimacy pyramid. And we actually authored a book.
Jake Kastleman (01:48.785)
Yeah.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (02:07.096)
with colleague Dan Drake, Building True Intimacy, that kind of goes over that framework. And that's what we use in our practice with all of our clients who are wanting to heal and restore from this.
Jake Kastleman (02:18.152)
Yeah, well tell people a bit about your personal story. mean, you guys have a personal experience with this as you're saying. I suppose, well, kind of what that was like for you guys. then this is such a big question to ask what brought you out of it, because there's a lot of things, but maybe some of the main things that brought you out.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (02:40.462)
Yeah Yeah, we've talked about what got us into it. What got us into it was a lifelong history of me having kind of a double life. I would portray myself in public a certain way. You know, I would
a pastor for a long time. I kind of considered myself, you know, very gentlemanly like, right, and then I had this kind of approach in relationships. But under the surface, I had this long-term history with early exposure to sexualized content, which turned into kind of sexual addiction, which turned into pornography use and kind of various other ways of acting out. And I really kept those two lives as separate as could be. know, nobody who kind of saw me in public would know about that.
and that private life really I never let it become part of that public persona and so when Joanna and I started dating I just continued that same pattern right she saw who I was
kind of in our relationship day to day but I was also kind of hiding this secret past from her which really eventually became part of our present and that's really kind of what happened is is that it's something that I thought was gonna be gone and kind of done with when our relationship came around it came creeping back in right ever so kind of subtly at first and then before I knew it I was kind of full-blown in my addiction again and Joanne was asking a lot of hard questions like what's going on right what's wrong with our
relationship? Why don't we as close as we wish we were? Because we really liked who we were as a couple. We had a lot that we were really excited about, but there was this kind of wall that was keeping us together and she didn't know what it was. And that was what was so difficult for her was she knew the kind of block, but she didn't really understand what the root of it
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (04:28.238)
And yeah, not too many people are educated in sexual addiction until you become some sort of professional in the field or have personal experience with it, right? So I never heard of the term I had no idea what it was and so I didn't even know that that could be an option of what was getting us stuck and right in addition to he hid everything from me, right? And so I could tell we weren't as healthy or as close emotionally as we both said we wanted to be and we
were pouring in time, effort, energy, emotion, trying to get better, trying to get healthy. We were doing marriage programs. We saw a counselor, right? We were doing some things, but still getting stuck. It wasn't until I heard someone actually in one of the first classes of my MFT program, an anonymous pastor came and gave a testimony from healing from sexual addiction, what he did in his road to recovery, what healing and restoration looked like in his marriage.
was talking, I knew immediately this is it. This is the thing that is going on that is keeping us stuck. And so that day I went home and I just asked him straight up, is this what is going on for us? Is this happening in your life right now?
Like I said, Joanna had been hinting and kind of beating around it, right? Asking kind of what was going on in our relationship, but I don't know for a long time I don't think she'd been that direct and so she tells this story and Asked this very direct question and for the first time in my entire life I mean I'm over 30 by this point and and I had never told anyone what I told her which was yes I actually am struggling with this. This is this is going on in our
I think the only word that came out was yes. Everything just kind of shut down after that. And she so lovingly handed me that sheet of resources and goes, well, I think you're going to be doing these things.
Jake Kastleman (06:17.137)
you
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (06:27.758)
And that's really what started the journey for us. And so we kind of shifted from kind of pouring in general resources, like I said, counseling, know, kind of marriage resources, classes to kind of specific addiction. And we just, we went all in on understanding sexual addiction. I had to figure out what was going on. And I did not understand why.
doing this because it wasn't what I wanted. It wasn't what I wanted for us and for myself, but I just kept finding myself back in it, right? Right back into that space. And so I had to get to understand myself. Joanna then had the unfortunate reality of having to get to know kind of what had happened to her. The reality
of her hopes and dreams of the relationship that had now been shattered. And this is just kind of one word. And this is over a decade ago when we're going through this. And so betrayal trauma really wasn't a thing people were talking about or just barely. And so it took a while for me to understand what had happened to me. I went to some groups, some other resources that were more that codependent, co-addict focus, and it just didn't fit. It didn't resonate. It didn't feel authentic.
Jake Kastleman (07:13.308)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (07:37.76)
to what I was experiencing at all until I stumbled upon betrayal trauma. I was like, yes, that's the thing. And so that was a slower journey than I think we would have liked in terms of like...
and our healing because we couldn't really heal until we kind of both understood the traumatic impacts that betrayal has on a relationship. And so that was kind of for me. And then for us as a couple, there was nothing at the time. There was no relational kind of healing from sex addiction. There was kind of more general healing from infidelity that some of the pieces fit. Some of them really didn't. And so that definitely slowed us down a little bit.
well. That's where a lot of the bumps and bruises happened. The starts, the stops, the restarts and so I think that's one of the reasons we became really passionate about creating more really healthy and helpful resources for couples on this journey.
Jake Kastleman (08:39.794)
Yeah, it's a messy process, a really messy process. And it's interesting that you say how these kinds of resources are so new, relatively. mean, when you consider the internet came around about 30 years ago, I think I've often asked myself the question, well, like, why, how are there not more resources out there? How do more people not know about this? And it's like, well, that was only 30 years ago that this really started to become a worldwide, very prevalent.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (09:09.218)
Yes. Yes.
Jake Kastleman (09:09.588)
Problem, right? Yeah, one of the things that I was thinking is you guys are talking Matthew because there's a lot of people listening who could probably relate to this. What was that? You were caught up in these addictions for many years and You're living a double life What's the dissonance there like or what are like the lies that you're telling yourself or how you're talking with yourself about this? What you're aware of what you're not like, what is that like for you at that time?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (09:37.942)
It's really interesting because there's so much fog around that time in my life because that's how I lived, right? I tried to live.
disassociated, kind of disconnected from my reality, so compartmentalized, as it like, so kind of like these two worlds couldn't touch. But I think as I've kind of now gotten out of that fog a little bit, I'm a little bit, it's a little bit clearer. And I think some of the things that I noticed was there definitely were some kind of like, what I would say is like beliefs are kind of these like internalized lies that were very much fueling the process for me. You know, one of the lies is that I would talk about is kind of like everybody does it, it's not a big deal, right?
because it was so normalized in our culture, I would tell myself that it wasn't that bad.
Jake Kastleman (10:15.028)
Hmm.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (10:21.902)
think of other people who were doing worse things, right? I could always kind of look and say like, hey, there are worse things in this and that lie, right? Because that was not the case at all. What the reality was is I was doing something that was destroying kind of my soul because I was so disconnected from my values and actions, right? That kind of dissonance was really wrecking me. But I was also creating this huge chasm between Joanna and I and then kind of harming her. Not only the people, right, that
that pornography hurts as well, like human trafficking, right? All of these other issues. Like I was totally disconnected from that with that.
And so that really helped to kind of reinforce what I did. But I also, what was interesting, I also had this lie that I would say, that I would tell myself that was no one was as bad as me, right? No one had the dark thoughts that I had, right? No one, right? I really saw myself just horribly. The shame that I would kind of manifest for what I did, you know, that kind of convinced me that if anyone ever knows about this, they will leave me, my life will be over, everything will be coming crashing down. And so I would really kind of swing between
those two lies, right, to kind of keep myself afloat.
would tell myself, hey, this is not that bad, right? Or then I would be like, my God, yes it is. And if anyone ever finds out, right, if anyone ever knows, your life will be over. And that really kind of kept all of those secrets, right, in that kind of closet, tucked away, locked away. And I was meticulous about trying to keep those lives separate, right? And would go to great lengths to hide, right, to deceive, to cover, to plan. And it's amazing now that I look back on it, the amount of just
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (12:03.308)
time and energy, the emotional toll that I was giving up day in and day out, right, which then left Joanna with kind of like half a husband, right? I mean, I...
I thought I was doing pretty good. We had a pretty good connection, but she was truly getting like half of me at best and some days even less. But it just manifested itself that way. And then it became so habituated, you just start to think of it as the way your life works. It became such a part of my life, I really couldn't remember ever living long term without it.
And so that was the other piece of just like, this is just kind of how it goes. This is what I do when I get overwhelmed.
escape, this is what I do. And so all of those things were really feeding that season. And even though there were these moments that I wanted to come forward, I wanted to tell Joanna, I wanted to confess, I wanted to get help, those lies really kind of kept all of that at bay.
really was this testimony of freedom of someone having a life that sounded pretty good outside of their actions that I was like, okay, maybe this is something worth actually pursuing. Maybe my life will continue on.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (13:22.67)
if I really do give this a chance. And even after I did, I went right back to that fear, right? The moment I said yes, that fear of being left, it was the first thing that was talking to me. It was like, well, you just threw away your marriage, you just threw away your career, you've just thrown away your life. And so to have all these things now that I, you know, in this part of my life, it's amazing. Like it's totally eradicated.
Jake Kastleman (13:48.52)
Well, and I don't know if you guys know IFS or parts work at all. If you guys ever use that. Yeah. I love the concept so much. They're life-changing. When you were talking about those two sides of you, Matthew, I thought of the firefighter manager polarization back and forth of one side is highly self-critical, you know, keep everything hidden. Don't tell anybody about this. If you do, they'll reject you. They'll leave you. And then the opposite lie as well, which is
Don't like this isn't a big deal. Everybody does it. It's you know, just keep doing this behavior. It's what gets you through. It's fine, right? That firefighter and and so one of the things that I find really amazing about your story is this moment. Joanna when you come to Matthew and you tell him here is what I think is going on. Is that the case? And then your response?
Matthew, which is yes, I think that that could have gone very differently. And I think it does in a lot of circumstances of the continuation of the lies. Why not? Why not lie in that moment? What was different for you?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (15:05.102)
Like I said, think the, two things, I really do think I had kind of started to hit rock bottom. I had started to see, I finally had started to see the damage it was doing. We had a really good thing. We had a good relationship. I had an amazing wife and I was starting to see it slip away.
And so I was getting scared myself. And so I think it was a lot of things kind of working well at the same time, kind of providentially. Like I was starting to get scared that I was going to lose this. I was getting pretty desperate just to have it out of my life. I just was like, this is, I could see it getting worse. I could see it getting kind of more consuming. And so there was a part of kind of like, if this would go away, if somebody would kind of take it, I'll give it up.
And then when she told the story of Hope, and of someone who had had a very similar life as me, right? And so I could kind of connect with, I was like, okay. And so I think I went from this place of I'm desperate, but I'm not courageous enough to do anything about it, to I'm desperate.
maybe foolish enough to think, okay, this is gonna work, right? But then, like I said, the moment the words came out of my mouth, I definitely was like, well, maybe what I meant to say was, don't we all, right? But I, know, Joanne was like, no, I heard what you said, right? And I know what's going on, and so.
Jake Kastleman (16:33.028)
And Joanna's like, no, we...
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (16:39.15)
But yeah, but I do think it was that sense of desperation, I think the sense of seeing the damage, but also the hope. And I think that's partly why we do what we do, because...
up until then, like all I'd ever seen on kind of TV and media was like, if you have sexual problems, it will kill everything you care about. And then your life is kind of over. And so you're going to get divorced and you're going to be miserable. And so I was kind of like, you know, sobriety doesn't look that great, right? rid of this does not look that appealing. And so when she kind of lays out this life, I was like, well, that looks cool. Like that actually looks appealing. If that's the kind of like we can have one day, like
Jake Kastleman (16:58.908)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (17:16.928)
I'm in, sign me up, like what do we have to do to get there?
Jake Kastleman (17:20.116)
Yeah, yeah, that I can't remember what the phrase is exactly. think, well, think it's the pain of getting sober seems less than the pain of staying in your addiction, right? You'd finally cross to that point. So one of the questions that I have for both of you guys that I think about, especially as I work with clients one-on-one and talking to them about their dynamics with their spouses,
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (17:32.504)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (17:49.23)
are lot of different behaviors and patterns that I see continuously. Same themes over and over. You guys have been doing this a long time. I wanted to see what are some of most common relationship, relational dysfunctions that you see in couples where one is struggling with sexual addiction. Kind of what feeds into the challenges that could either be fueling the addiction or it could be enabling the addiction, enabling pain on both ends.
kind of patterns do you guys see that people struggle with the most?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (18:23.352)
think one of the patterns that happens a lot...
is it's an in it's an imbalanced pattern basically in the coupleship because there's one person who is stepping out of the relationship consistently right whoever is in the addiction whoever is in the deception is in a sense abandoning the relationship to feed the addiction instead of merging the relationship and that partner on the other side who's left alone who's left abandoned feels very unsafe right and in my case right in the same
Jake Kastleman (18:46.931)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (18:56.982)
way like it doesn't totally know
what's going on or why, so it's very tricky to do anything directly about it. And so what happens is that partner will just kind of step in and fill in the gap and take over and maybe like pour into the kids a little bit more or just whatever that looks like, they start carrying the weight of responsibility of caring for the relationship, caring for the family, and it can start to look or feel like control in some ways,
as the other person who's...
Stepping out of the relationship. It's what we sometimes call like learned helplessness. They can become less and less responsible reliable even capable of showing up for themselves right because again They're not taking care of themselves if they're acting out an addiction and certainly not able capable of caring for the relationship and that gets really tricky after discovery because they've kind of learned these roles in this really unhealthy and balanced way
And what's needed is for that betrayer to step in and take ownership of their own recovery. But that's exactly the opposite of what happens. It's the spouse doing the research, doing the planning, doing the work to get them out of their own addiction, which just sets up a really bad recovery process pretty early on from the beginning if they don't step in and really take ownership of that recovery. Yeah. And then what we see happen right from the
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (20:31.636)
side, what will typically take place is there will be kind of resentment building because I will experience like Joanne was saying, she's this partner is trying to create safety, stability because there's this instability and so they're trying they're doing more but that more will start to feel like control, it'll feel like kind of parenting and so what often is the case is then I'll get resentful, I'll start to see my partner in this negative light not and because I'm completely oblivious to the damage that's being done by
beaming outside of the relationship. And so because I am thinking, you know, this is a victimless crime or this isn't hurting anybody, right? And so I'm totally ignorant to the pain that's being caused and so therefore I'm looking at my partner negatively, which then is just reinforcing the kind of destructive entitlement I have as an addict, right? That I deserve a break, I deserve, right? I deserve to feel good too, so I go back into my addiction. And then like Joanna said, in discovery,
this can turn out to even be the case even more, right? And then, and what we'll find is, especially if there's relapse or there's kind of a lack of really of that kind of desperate getting rid of the addiction, right? You know, the partner is going, hey, have you been to a meeting? Have you called your sponsor? How are you doing? Right? And then the husband or the spouse who's the addict is getting frustrated because they're like, why are you asking me all these questions? Right? Why are you controlling me? You know, and then they do this dance. And even if
get even if they make progress that imbalance like so Joanna said it's it's really helping that addict understand like you weren't you weren't a spouse like you were in the relationship but you really didn't function as a spouse and your relationship is gonna need so much from you
and the partner is going to have have space to heal because that's the one thing that control is preventing, it's preventing the healing. But a lot of people think, oh, we just need to tell the partner, just do less, right? Why don't you just do less? Why don't you stop doing something, know, quit trying to control your spouse's recovery. And we go, no, no, no, no, no. It's kind of the opposite. This person has to do more, significantly more so that there is safe space for the person who's been carrying the load.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (22:51.982)
and to heal and to find out what actually this this kind of imbalances felt like and that's a big one that we see kind of you know constantly in couples because they're wanting that stability and they'll kind of do anything to get it.
Jake Kastleman (23:09.374)
So you have a spouse of someone who's addicted, who is experiencing exactly what you're talking about, right? And they are, they feel they're carrying all this weight. They're kind of being, you know, what might be seen as controlling or judgmental because they're feeling overwhelmed and that things are imbalanced. They wanna make that spouse change, right? They wanna make them come out of their addiction and make them heal.
And it seems like the more that they reach in to do that, the worse things get and the deeper that the one who is addicted digs in their heels. How does the spouse change their behavior? What can they do in order to empower that situation rather than playing to this dynamic that's just hurting both ends in different ways?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (24:04.59)
It's really hard. It's not easy, right? It's a very natural reaction. I'm safe, if I'm feeling unsafe, I'm going to try and create safety. And when I'm feeling unsafe, because this person that I'm extremely, I'm in a vulnerable position with them. For most of the partners I work with, they're married, they have kids, they share finances, right? Like no amount of boundaries is all of a sudden going to like separate all of that.
Jake Kastleman (24:06.888)
Yeah.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (24:31.872)
and protect them and so they know that I'm in a vulnerable.
place with this person and they're choosing this extremely dangerous, unsafe, chaotic, destructive behavior. And so it is a very built in reaction, right? To seek to control in a way that creates safety for myself. And so I think first grieving, just the reality of like, this is not an okay reality, right? Like this is exactly the opposite of what I thought we were
Committing to right and so I think you in some ways like it's helpful to name the injustice that's taking place like hey I thought we signed up to be full and equal partners and not only has that not been happening It's still not happening right and so I think like giving space to name that giving space to grieve that Reality first is really important because that I think for a lot of partners that unfair that injustice piece also kicks in
goes like no no no wait but this is the expectation and so helping them then
Find a way to voice that expectation because it is that absolutely is that we're not asking you to change your expectation that is the expectation and you need to be able to assert and advocate for that what we would say is really the healthy relational reality and so when you're advocating for that balance or that justice you're also advocating for the healthiest dynamic both relationally and for both individuals because one of the things the research
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (26:11.28)
is that for individuals to thrive, they have to have secure attachments in their life. And so when you're advocating for a healthy, secure attachment, you're also advocating for both of those individuals to thrive. And so sometimes reframing that is helpful too. And then stepping into, where do I have some power?
not to control the other person, right? Like kind of what is my responsibility and what do I let go of? And that's, again, that can be really scary. And so we kind of help couples understand, and this is for both individuals is helpful. My responsibility is myself and anything to do with me and the relationship. Those are my two responsibilities. And so both of us share that relational responsibility, but I do not, I'm not responsible for my spouse's
recovery, sobriety, that journey. But I do have a space to advocate, right? Because there's the relational part. We're not going to have a healthy relationship if this person stays in addiction. So I do have space to advocate for that person to be self-responsible and do the things that they need to do to show up sober and healthy for our relationship. And so that's where we talk to partners about
Boundaries, are kind of we refer to those things where you have full control over it. Those are your responsibilities. Think about what are the boundaries that you need to provide safety for yourself, to provide healing space for yourself. And then what are relational requests? What are the things that you need to name? Hey, I need to see this happen.
to be able to feel safe. And if you can't honor that request in terms of creating safety for us in the relationship, I may have to change my boundaries, right? And so that sometimes people will think about like consequences. We struggle to use that term because it starts to feel too much like rules and punishment, which gets into that parent child dynamic again. Rather we talk about like what we're trying to do is we're trying to create a really safe structure.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (28:21.996)
Yes, some things are in bounds and some things are out of bounds. But if we honor that structure, we start to create a lot of safety. so personally, my boundaries should help create safety for me. Relationally, those boundaries or that structure should create safety for us. And that's a really positive thing. And so the best case scenario would be that both people were able to work, collaborate to create that relational structure together and start moving towards safety. But again, if that's not possible,
helping that partner figure out where are they self-empowered and the spaces where they have power they have responsibility to create that safety. One of the ways that this played out in our own relationship and a really kind of a very real dynamic was Joanna was pretty upfront and I remember one of the things she kind of communicated to me early on was you're better than this I know what you're capable of I know the kind of man you are and this isn't it.
And I am expecting that man to be present in our marriage. That's the man I will give another chance to, right? That's the person I will let heal and come be a part of this relationship. And that's what I see in you. And so in some ways, it was daunting because it was kind of very clear of like, this isn't coming back. mean, she was kind of like, there's no second chances with this, but I know who you are. And so I will sometimes tell partners, I was like, what made you choose your husband in the first place?
or what made you choose your spouse in the first place? What is it that you see in them that's not showing up in, and of course this addiction and then in this infidelity and this betrayal, but you might still see in them. You can name that, right? And you can say, hey, I know who you are. I know what you're capable of.
And that person is going to help us, like I said, take responsibility for themselves and kind of step in. so she was, was very hands off and expected me to motivate myself to desire healing for myself and to figure it out for myself. And so now while we communicated a lot about...
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (30:25.144)
was going on in my personal recovery, Joanna was really not trusting me because I wasn't trustworthy, but she was stepping back and letting me choose. And then we would have conversations about those choices, right? And we would talk about that, right, as a way for me to rebuild that trustworthiness.
Jake Kastleman (30:44.626)
Yeah, those are extremely valuable insights guys. It's very, powerful. So one of the other kind of questions I had is, and I think this can be a particular struggle in that dynamic that you're talking about. Can you talk about the balance between caring for yourself versus caring for the relationship and what that needs to look like for people?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (31:10.69)
Yeah.
It's huge because that's really where safety is built in the relationship. If I don't care for myself, I can't be a safe person. And that's what I had to come to realize was that my addiction was a manifestation of a lack of self-care. I had for a long history had worked 60, 70, 80, 90 hour weeks for many of the jobs and opportunities that I had. I was a people pleaser. I would be very conflict avoidant. I would kind of keep things
to myself, would build resentments, right? I was doing all these things to kind of create this internalized distaste, discomfort, frustration. And then my acting out was a way of trying to medicate all of that. And so I had to get that solved, right? Because if I was going to continue to do that, if I was going to continue to overwork, if I was going to continue to avoid conflict, and I was going to continue to find myself in some type of destructive behavior, even if I could
boundary out some of the sexualized behaviors in my life, those other behaviors and the anger and the things that would kind of also manifest. so becoming a safe person meant I had to take care of myself so that I had something that I could give because the thing with the relationship is it is a sacrificial, generous act, right? I'm taking care of the relationship without any guarantee of it necessarily taking care of me immediately, right? And so I
had to be in a place to be healthy. And so that meant a hard look at everything in my life. I I was a big, I'm a big fan of the 12 steps and they'll tell you people, places, things, everything has to change, right? If you're not willing to change.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (32:56.308)
all the ways that you live, you're going to have a hard time showing up differently in your life. so physical self care, emotional self care, spiritual self care, right? Mental self care all really became a part of my recovery. Recovery was not, I've done a bad thing and I need to be punished for the bad thing. Recovery was, I'm killing myself and I'd like to live. Here's a life, right? And so that's what I really loved about recovery.
And I think that was one of the reasons recovery stuck for me was it improved my life. It helped me to live better which then gave me the capacity to say, what are the things that I've committed to that I am responsible to care for that kind of can't care for themselves, right? And I knew Joanna was responsible for herself, but I needed to be responsible for the relationship. And so part of that
recognition was, okay, my actions have impacted her in a way. I have to create space for her, right? What are there things that I can do in our life that would create space for her journey? Whether that's her going to a retreat or a group or things like that. Honesty, right? Being transparent, not keeping things from her anymore.
All of these things were actually ways that I was caring for the relationship because that's what the relationship needed. It needed me to be honest. It needed me to be consistent, right? And so those were the ways that I was actually making our relationship better. It's amazing how when you actually step in and do that work of self-responsibility.
how oftentimes it naturally leads to caring for the relationship better. And so kind of maybe a silly example that we actually navigated pre-recovery and I think it helped us better understand what recovery needed to look like. was early in our marriage, Matthew would get hangry really easily. So if we were out and all of a sudden his stomach was empty, he'd get really upset and very fast. And I did not grow up in a family.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (35:05.824)
where people got angry or
And so it was a little scary to me and so I found that I started when I feel unsafe I tend to control I started like stuffing my purse with granola bars so for out and he gets angry I can just here you go eat some food right so I was managing I was taking responsibility for his emotional and physical state and And then I would get angry because I was like I don't want that granola bar I want a cheeseburger right and I would like it resemble at her like taking
care of me. And even if I could manage his anger by bringing a bunch of food with me, I knew I would never actually feel safe. If the only reason I'm safe is because I'm managing his emotions, that doesn't feel good, right? That's not truly building a safe relationship dynamic. Maybe personally I feel a little bit more safe in that moment, but relationally this is not working. And individually, right? I'm being responsible for him. He's not being responsible for him.
And so when we kind of learned this and learned like, his emotions are his responsibility. I was like, whew, okay, great. It's like you get to pack your own food from now. And the expectation is you will manage your emotions when we go out. And so for a season, I purposefully kind of like pulled back and made sure not to bring food or not to make suggestions, but to hold him accountable. And if I could tell he was getting hangry or he was needing food, I would kind of name like, this is your responsibility to take care of.
and to be able to show up in a healthy way when we're together.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (36:41.646)
And so I was still holding him accountable, right? It's not that I just like checked out or disconnected or withdrew. I used my voice to name, this is your responsibility, this is mine, and the expectation is that you're gonna show up and you're gonna take care of that. And he did, and he would show up and he would manage his own hunger, he would manage his emotions around those experiences. And it started building a lot more safety in the relationship. All of a sudden, I actually felt safe because I had a partner
willing to show up and take responsibility for themselves and for the relationship to take responsibility for building safety for us. And what's really cool is as that happens, right, as enough of that safety is built up,
What's cool is now I have the opportunity to step back in and to partner again. Because that safety has been built, because that self responsibility has been demonstrated by both of us, I now know it's safe to step in where we get to be vulnerable and interdependent. So yes, now I can pack food for all of us when we go out and it's not a big deal because I know that he is going to ultimately take responsibility for himself.
Jake Kastleman (37:52.838)
One of the major things that I'm thinking of and it's, exactly what you're saying to state in a bit of a different way is ownership versus victimhood mentality, right? Or victim mentality. I, I think that in my studies of 12 step and working with others professionally in my own personal journey, there is this, that what can be a massive chasm between this victim mentality and it's not, it's not just with the addiction. It's with like everything in life of excuses. It's
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (38:00.494)
Yeah.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (38:19.394)
Yes.
Jake Kastleman (38:22.33)
It's this circumstance or this person's fault or it's because of you or you know, you're putting all this pressure on me Therefore, that's why i'm acting this way or blaming and pointing fingers versus okay There's a lot that's not in my control But there are a lot of things that are in my control What can I do to improve the situation or to work on myself or to seek solutions? I just reflect on how it's impossible to
give a spouse that, right, that struggles with addiction. And I wonder what you guys have to say about, often it's said the only thing that you as a spouse have true power over is your own healing. If you see that as in a lot of ways kind of the path, and I know it's not the end all be all necessarily, but the more that I'm able to...
do my own healing and be an example of someone who is taking that self responsibility and self care that that is then hopefully going to rub off on the spouse. Would you say that that's true? Would you say that there's elements missing from that?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (39:35.67)
It doesn't hurt. mean, I think like we've talked about the dynamic that can cause this.
I'm in that victim mode.
and I'm expecting her to be the rescuer and she shows up that way because she feels unsafe, right? That'll make it, that'll definitely get a couple kind of stuck. And if she's willing, if either partner is willing to change their pattern, the pattern has to naturally shift. Because we can't do our dance anymore. So I can go play the victim and be like, I didn't bring any food, I'm hungry, this isn't fun anymore. And she can be like, I hate that for you, like I'm good. But if you need to take care of yourself,
You're welcome to because you're responsible for that. That will change our pattern. I do think though, I can still be abusive with my anger. I can still be abusive with my victimization. mean, there's things like gaslighting and other things. And this is where we will sometimes talk about scaffolding and support. so...
This is going to be important for both people, but especially for a betrayed spouse. Do you have people who understand what you're going through and will help advocate for you as well? Because I do think that one of the realities that we deal with is that there are some, like I am physically stronger than Joanna, right? I have a greater earning potential as a male in this world than Joanna, right? So I have financial power. have physical power over Joanna.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (41:02.624)
And so those are realities. And so she has a different level of safety in our relationship, like a kind of safety experience than I do. And if we don't reckon with those things, I think we get into this too much of like, hey, if you just be your best self, it'll rub off on your partner and they will get better. I think it's what we'll usually say is like addiction acting out, these aren't relational issues, right? Joanna was showing up as a really great
wife. But because of my unresolved trauma and addiction, it didn't matter how good she would show up. There was no amount of goodness that she could be that would kind of...
fix that, right? And so it would definitely shine a light on it, but I think just being able to say what we like to say is more of like, you get support? Can you get scaffolding? Can you help find your voice? And will there be others that join with you in that, right? That will not...
turn adversarial, but be able to kind of like Joanne was saying, hold that standard of like, hey, here's what it's expected, right? You know, what I realized was I was almost 30 years old and I couldn't feed myself properly, right? I wasn't, I could not deal with my metabolism. That's not, that is not the functioning of a healthy 30 year old, right? Healthy 30 year olds should be able to manage their metabolism and their stomach and their hunger and their
throughout a day. Are they going to be perfect in it? No, but I was way underperforming.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (42:39.038)
And so instead what Joanna did was she allowed me to perform and show up as myself, which actually felt really good. I mean, that was the cool part of the story was like, I started taking care of myself and that felt great. It actually felt better. And what was interesting is I noticed it then was easier to be more generous and more open to the relationship. So when we would like talk about dinner, it was easier for me to like be open to things, right? Joanna would throw out dinner ideas in our
and I'd be like, no, no, because I was angry and I was hungry, right? Then, you know, now we talk about dinner, I was like, yeah, sure, that sounds great, right? I was way more agreeable. I got to be myself and that's what I love. So I think there's this, there's a tough balance, right? And that's one of the reasons that we will usually suggest couples work with a professional. Those can be that scaffolding and, you know, and kind of that support for you.
because it's helpful to have people who go, hey, we're not against either one of you, right? Couples don't get better by being against one of the spouses, kind of like IFS, right? Like being against myself or another person won't work. But we can be against this addiction, right? We can be against the cancer that it's causing in your life and be for both of you together.
And when we do that, we can also be for the relationship because things that help people thrive should not harm relationships and vice versa.
Jake Kastleman (44:09.224)
Yeah. For those who struggle with addiction, what do you think they really need to know about betrayal trauma? What it's like for their spouse? I think along with that, you know, I was at a conference a while back. They were talking about betrayal trauma, PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, and how essentially betrayal trauma is this, it's a significant betrayal of trust with someone who's close to you.
And what can often happen is this, as you guys were talking about this hyper vigilance, right? I think that a lot of those who have struggled with addiction, maybe they're getting better. Maybe they're trying to come out of it and they feel like their spouse is just in this space of like hyper critical, very controlling, you know, man back off, like, do you even love me right now? You just see me as my addiction and that I'm just this villain. That's very hard for them, but I would love for you guys to talk about
for those who are in that situation and they're experiencing their spouse being hyper vigilant or controlling or angry, right? For them to have some compassion for them or understanding for them and what that is like for those spouses, why they are where they are and just having that understanding what that's like for them.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (45:29.006)
It's, yeah, was like, love to hear you talk to it. let me start and then you fill in what I missed. Intimate betrayal.
intimate partner betrayal is one of the single most devastating experiences that anyone can experience in their lifetime across the board. And they've done a lot of research on this. It's as bad as it gets because this is the place, like Joanna was talking about, this was my secure attachment. And marital relationships are the only thing that mimic the level of security that the parent-child dynamic is where we think of all of our good secure attachment is supposed to come from. The marital relationships, the only thing that comes close to
And so when that has been fractured, it's as bad as it gets. And so I remind the people that I work with in the addiction world of like this is not a kind of little thing. This is a big, huge thing. And it's usually happening to this person all at once, right? So I'll tell a guy like, if you lie to someone, that hurts them. And you have to imagine lying to them every day. But here's the thing, they don't know that. They won't
that until years later. But that's not like it's one lie. It will be all of those days to them because that's what their brain will start doing. Their brain will start asking, wait, when he was late that day and I asked him why and he told me there was traffic and there was no traffic on the street, what was going on, right? That's what's happening and so that load of years of kind of my lies was set on Joanna's shoulders in a moment.
And she had to really, I mean she had to spend years trying to really put back together her story, our story, my stories, right, where they all fit. And that is so much on a human being. And I think if we don't talk about that reality, we will start to kind of go, well, why is she so critical? Why does she have so many questions? Where I'm more of like, there's actually, most partners that we encounter are whole.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (47:36.064)
holding it together incredibly well knowing.
their circumstances. They're usually doing more than most of us could bear. In fact, I've had a lot of guys who'll tell me, couldn't get over this. Like I could never move on from this. I would never be able to forgive her. And so I think that reality is important. Just the level of that impact. And to know that like yourself, right? Hopefully what someone has learned in addiction is that I have trauma and that trauma has manifested itself in ways that I wish it hadn't, right?
take me a ton of work and potentially a lot of years to fully heal it, that's exactly what's going on the other side, just in a different way, right? Instead of that trauma coming from kind of usually childhood and early experiences, it's coming from the relationship. so- You kind of like going, hey, that childhood abuser, the trauma you're trying to work through, you're going to go live with them while you work through that trauma.
Jake Kastleman (48:34.236)
Hmm... yeah.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (48:34.796)
We would not recommend that for most of our clients, but that's what these partners are living through. They are trying to heal from the trauma as they live an intimate relationship with the person that traumatized them. That...
that will mess with your mind. And it does. That's why those PTSD symptoms are so strong and so ongoing, right? And so when spouses say, why do you keep bringing this up, right? But for most of my partners, it's like, well, I wish I didn't have to. I wish my brain didn't remind me of this every hour on the hour every day. But my choices are to either sit in that pain, sit with the reality of those
Jake Kastleman (48:52.328)
Yeah, yeah.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (49:19.504)
intrusive thoughts alone or with other people, right? While you say like, I would rather not be a part of that. Okay, well guess what? That probably means you're not gonna be part of this relationship for very long. Or...
you show up with compassion and empathy because you realize the horror of the reality that my spouse is going through was caused by me. So the very least I can do is show up with patience in those moments when they need to share what's going on or the grief that's coming up or the loss that they're feeling or the thought that they can't get out of their mind.
Yeah, so. And I think one word of encouragement for addicts is we get that you're not trained for this, right? So, you know, it's it's it's one of the reasons we love working with couples in recovery is because neither person was trained for it, right?
Partners were not trained to heal from trauma at the same time wanting to love someone who's working through addiction. Addicts weren't trained to be present for someone working through their own trauma that they cause, which then absolutely attacks their sense of self. And it is messy. What's really incredible though is human resiliency. I have seen partners who are incredibly resilient and are able to forgive things that would feel...
practically unforgivable, but I've also seen addicts who you would think never would have the emotional bandwidth to be able to sit with someone that they've so deeply injured. But I've seen them do it and it's and it is incredible and I've seen them do it fairly early because they because they get wait, I am NOT a horrible person. I am capable of loving other people well and I can love even those that I've hurt because even those things don't make me a horrible
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (51:07.524)
person again right her pain doesn't make me a monster and so like those parts right I can sit and I can be present and I can hear it even though it's hard and part of that is how you structure it right part of that is giving couples kind of the the structures and the and the tools to be able to do that I think the one thing we would tell couples is don't try this on your own right it'd be like learning to skydive by yourselves right we just it's just not wise get the
kind of support where they can help you have some of those early conversations. Even, I will sometimes push guys, if you can just be present and listen, just reflect back what you hear, take it in. That will communicate to her so much early on that you can be present, you can sit, even if you don't totally understand or get it or it makes sense, but that you're willing to kind of hear is such
a gift for the relationship.
Jake Kastleman (52:10.524)
One of the things that I often see in relationships is the spouse of the addict will blame themselves for the addict's behavior. Some way I've fallen short, something wrong with me. What do you commonly see with what people go through with that and why, and how can they start to work out of that?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (52:33.59)
I think a lot of partners go to that place because they've actually been told that point-blank by either their spouse or by trusted people in their life. There's a lot of people who are not trained professionally. They don't understand what's going on and how to deal with it and they will actually say things like that and kind of advocate for healing options that are not so healing and so unfortunately, right? And so like a big one sometimes is like the expectation that you would have so much
sex with this person because they're not getting enough sex and so that's why they had to go outside the relationship or you weren't loving them enough or you weren't right and so I think that they are told these things or sometimes pick these things up subtly in culture right like these messages are certainly out there and so unfortunately those become embedded enough that when they're faced with this reality in their own marriage that's where they go to really easily to these narratives that
that have already been in there or.
Sometimes it's the help they first seek, they're told these things right away. And so they start internalizing them, they start believing them. And so starting to help them name what some of those narratives are, understand where they came from, and then really dispelling them as myths, right? That it is not any responsibility on you that this person has chosen these destructive behaviors. so sometimes, sometimes what I'll tell my partners is,
are enough, 100 % enough for a healthy person, a healthy husband, a healthy spouse on the other side, but you did not have that. And so the way they showed up, the way they treated you was that you were not enough, but that is not a true reflection of your worth. And so your healing journey is getting back to knowing yourself and knowing the
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (54:31.224)
correct reflection of who you are, how valuable you are, how worthy you are, right? And so that's a lot of that healing. Healing of the trauma includes that peace for the partner of getting back to who they are, their authentic self. Who am I? What is my worth, my value?
How do I know that's true? How is that expressed in my life? And that will show up then in their voice that they're using in the relationship, the expectations, the boundaries, all of that, right? You can see a shift in that as they start to get reconnected with their kind of self-worth.
Jake Kastleman (55:05.104)
Wow, that's very, powerful guys. And one of the things I wanted to ask that maybe a question that's a little unique, but it's something that I've considered is how often do you guys see when one person is struggling with an addiction, the other one is as well, maybe a different form of addiction like food or technology or social media or what have you, maybe some of these less obvious or more socially acceptable addictions.
Do you guys see that quite a bit? I mean, half the time, like what does that look like in your experience?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (55:39.032)
Yeah, mean, addiction is one of those weird terms, Because it's got some kind of markers associated with it, like compulsivity and negative.
What we know for certain, because there's tons of research around this, is that we all have what we call destructive coping behaviors or maladaptive coping behaviors that we've adopted since childhood. And they manifest themselves in a couple of different ways, right? Anger, know, kind of blame, shame, self-criticism, control, like Joanna was saying, and then escape, right? And those escapes can manifest, like you said, in food, in screens, you know, in, you know, books. I mean, you can, you can escape.
into anything if you want. know, Gabor Matei is famous for saying he escaped into classical music purchasing, right? So if you want to escape, you can. And those are true for all human beings, right? Addiction is that when my coping behaviors become so maladaptive, right? So destructive and so consuming that I feel like I can't stop them, right? Even if I tried to stop, can't. And they're having such a big impact. Obviously, trauma just
whatever I do naturally to cope and reinforces it and makes it stronger and stronger and stronger. So it is really common that yeah, when we see couples, they're gonna walk in with some things that aren't working for them and they're gonna not work for them personally and they're not gonna work for them relationally. And that's why we think it's really important to kind of have that individual approach, right, at first, even as we're working on the relationship. Because the best thing I can do, you know, they talk about the living amends and the 12 steps.
The best thing I can do is just live as a better person. And so if I am constantly worrying about everything and ruminating in my head about all the worst possible scenarios, I can work on that. And I can work on that.
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (57:35.89)
betrayed or whether I'm a betraying spouse, whether I'm a child of a betrayed couple, right? These are all things that I can address that are going to make life better for me and when they are better for me, they will be better for our relationship, right? When I can show up confident, excited, hopeful, I'm not just getting the better of that. Joanne is getting it too, right? She's experiencing that in our conversations and so that's why it's helpful to
to have those kind of dynamics of like, this is what I'm responsible for because that's what's going to help show up in the relationship. I do think there are certain behaviors that are more culturally acceptable currently, screen addiction, social media use, Even watching the news, consuming things like that, that we really detach from our being present in our real life and we escape and numb out into in a way that's really unhealthy for us personally and really toxic for our relationship.
And so some of those are actually very important to think about and look at I do that with every couple I work with whether or not there's been any betrayal because I There's very few couples out there that it's not an issue for And I don't think we're talking about it enough. We're not actually taking a realistic self-aware look
these types of things are playing in our life currently and in this culture. And so that's always a good place to start for sure.
Jake Kastleman (59:09.62)
Yeah, I appreciate those insights so much guys. Really, really valuable stuff. Is there anything that we haven't talked about today that you guys think is important?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (59:20.856)
I think it's just good to know that the journey takes time. Rebuilding trust is not an overnight experience for anyone involved.
there is a lot that can happen early. does not have to take forever. I think some couples get stuck in this kind perpetual recovery cycle where they never actually get back to being a couple again. But even if that's not us, the process takes some time because I've got to show up differently enough to create honesty and safety for my partner so that they can then have the space to heal so that we then get the chance to kind of rebuild our partnership. And all that can take a year sometimes.
18 months and so I think just being remind I just like to remind people of like this is daily work You're not gonna see necessarily significant gains right away But if you stay diligent with it, you will turn around and you'll go Wow We're in a much better place and I'm will hear partners be like I kind of I kind of trust him again I feel safe again. I don't know when that started and we're like, that's okay, right? That's usually the sign of the work So I think for a lot of people that are that are on that day
that they're thinking, how long is this going to be? How long have we been at this? Like staying diligent to the work really will pay off in the long term.
Jake Kastleman (01:00:41.716)
So good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your insights, guys. Where can people find you if they want to get connected?
Matthew And Joanna Raabsmith (01:00:52.716)
You know, I think one of the things that we love is connecting with couples and creating spaces for them to have really wonderful healing opportunities. Something we're the most proud of is we created a couples group program called Renewing Us because we started getting these couples who kind of got out of the weeds. They were out of the kind of early crisis, but they weren't where they wanted to be totally. And they kind of came to us saying like, how do we get, how do we become great? Like, how do we have a great relationship? I don't want to just survive this. I'd really like to thrive. And so we,
created this kind of on this couples program it's about a year long and it's really a place for couples to come together with other couples but also to come under coaches to get support and guidance and you can find out all about that on our website. What's really nice we're the only Rapsmiths in the whole world so you just look up rapsmithteam.com and you'll find us you can always check out renewing us it's a great program to know a little bit.
Jake Kastleman (01:01:49.662)
Yes, and rapsmith, R-A-A-B Smith team.com, right? Yes. Yes. Well, again, such a privilege to have you guys on with your wisdom and your insights. I think that this episode has been probably a great source of hope for a lot of people who are struggling, both spouses and addicts. And so just appreciate you guys' time and insights so much.
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