The Secret Life of Porn Addiction: How Silence and Shame Keep Men Stuck (with Todd Smithson)

Porn addiction recovery is rarely just about quitting porn.

Most of the men I work with are not careless, rebellious men who do not value integrity. They are good men. They care about God. They care about their wives and children. They want to live clean. They want peace. They want clarity. They want to feel strong, honest, and free. But many of them are carrying something

hidden, and that hidden life is draining the life out of them.

That is one of the biggest themes in my conversation with Todd Smithson. Porn addiction is not only a behavior problem. It is often a secrecy problem, a shame problem, a silence problem, and a double-life problem. A man may look composed on the outside while privately carrying years of fear, hiding, and inner conflict. He may be functioning at work, showing up at church, serving his family, and doing his best to look fine, while internally he feels divided, exhausted, and increasingly disconnected from who he really is.

That is why real pornography addiction recovery has to go deeper than behavior management. It has to address the emotional roots of porn addiction, the beliefs that keep men stuck, and the lifestyle patterns that train the brain to keep returning to easy escape. If we only talk about “trying harder,” we miss the deeper work that actually helps a man overcome porn addiction for good.

In this article, I want to walk through the most important teachings from my episode with Todd and turn them into practical insight for men who want real healing from porn addiction, sexual shame, and secrecy.

Porn Addiction Recovery Begins When the Hidden Life Comes Into the Light

One of the most painful things about porn addiction is not just the porn itself. It is the hidden life built around it. It is the lying by omission. It is the concealment. It is the quiet management of appearances. It is the exhausting effort to keep one part of life separated from the rest of life.

A man can carry that burden for years. Sometimes decades.

When that hidden life comes into the light, it can feel devastating. It can shake a marriage. It can crush trust. It can force a man to finally confront what he has been avoiding for a very long time. But as painful as that moment is, it is often also the true beginning of recovery from porn addiction. Why? Because healing cannot begin where secrecy is still in control.

Many men think the goal is to hide better, manage better, or avoid getting caught. That mindset keeps the addiction alive. The real shift happens when a man decides, “I am done protecting the darkness. I want to become an honest man.” That is when freedom starts becoming possible.

If you want healing from porn addiction, you have to stop organizing your life around concealment. You have to begin organizing your life around truth.

The Double Life Is What Crushes a Man

One reason porn addiction and shame become so destructive is that they split a man in two. There is the version of him other people know, and there is the version of him he is terrified to reveal. That kind of divided living drains confidence, drains peace, and slowly erodes self-respect.

This is why many men do not just feel guilty after acting out. They feel fractured.

They feel weak. They feel false. They feel like they are watching themselves become someone they do not want to be. That is one of the hidden costs of pornography addiction. It does not just create urges. It creates inner division.

In my experience, one of the deepest goals of porn addiction recovery is not simply to “stop relapsing.” It is to become one person again. It is to stop splitting your life into public and private selves. It is to become a man whose internal world and external life are in alignment.

That kind of healing requires honesty, humility, and support. It also requires daily integrity. A man has to stop making excuses for secrecy and start building a lifestyle that leaves less room for it. That means honest check-ins, clear boundaries with devices, removing isolation where possible, and having real conversations with people he trusts. Recovery from porn addiction happens much more effectively when a man no longer fights alone.

Why Good Men Stay Stuck in Porn Addiction

A lot of men assume that if they struggle with compulsive porn use, something is fundamentally wrong with them. They conclude that they are weak, pathetic, perverted, or spiritually defective. But in many cases, what is really happening is that they are burdened, ashamed, confused, and emotionally untrained.

That distinction matters.

Shame and porn addiction often feed each other. A man acts out. He feels ashamed. That shame makes him want to escape. Then he acts out again to relieve the pain the shame itself created. That is one reason sexual shame keeps men stuck. The problem is not merely that they feel desire. The problem is what they have learned to believe about desire, themselves, and God.

Many men with porn addiction grew up in environments where sexuality was not explained well. It was warned about. It was feared. It was surrounded with tension. Even if no one directly said, “Sex is bad,” the emotional message often came through loud and clear: this is dangerous, this is shameful, this is not something we talk about openly.

When you combine high standards with silence and shame, you do not usually get freedom. You get secrecy. You get confusion. You get isolation. And eventually, you often get addiction.

That is why healing sexual shame is such a crucial part of porn addiction recovery.

A man has to learn how to separate sexual responsibility from sexual self-hatred. Those are not the same thing.

Porn Addiction Is Often About Escape, Not Just Pleasure

One of the most important truths men need to understand is that porn addiction is not mainly about sex. Very often, it is about escape.

Yes, porn stimulates the brain. Yes, it spikes dopamine. Yes, it creates arousal. But underneath that, it often functions as a fast and powerful way to get relief from stress, loneliness, disappointment, exhaustion, fear, boredom, or emotional pain.

That is why the neuroscience of porn addiction matters. The brain learns, “When I feel bad, I know where to go for immediate relief.”

That pattern is one reason pornography addiction recovery requires more than avoiding porn websites. It requires learning how to respond differently to pain. If a man does not learn emotional regulation, his brain will keep reaching for the same shortcut.

This is also why dopamine and porn addiction are so connected. Porn offers high stimulus with very low effort. Over time, that can make normal life feel dull by comparison. Meaningful activities like work, exercise, reading, creativity, service, and emotional connection start to feel less rewarding. The brain gets trained to seek intensity rather than depth.

I have seen this in my own life and in the lives of countless men. Porn does not just cost you sobriety. It can cost you motivation. It can cost you focus. It can cost you your enjoyment of ordinary life. That is why a man may feel more brain fog, less drive, and less passion while stuck in porn addiction. The nervous system becomes imbalanced, and real life starts to feel harder to engage.

That is one reason a recovery lifestyle matters so much. If you want freedom from porn addiction, you have to reduce low-effort overstimulation and build a life filled with healthier forms of reward. That includes sleep, movement, sunlight, meaningful work, nourishing food, emotional honesty, spiritual grounding, and real relationships. Recovery from porn addiction is not just subtractive. It is deeply constructive.

Why Willpower Fails in Porn Addiction Recovery

Many men are told that the answer is more discipline, more self-control, and more willpower. I do believe discipline matters. I believe structure matters. I believe boundaries matter. But willpower alone is not enough to overcome pornography addiction, especially when deeper beliefs and emotional triggers are still running the show.

A man can know that porn is hurting him. He can know that it is damaging his marriage. He can know that he does not want to keep doing it. And still, when the craving hits, he goes right back. Why? Because behavior is often driven by something deeper than knowledge.

There are beliefs underneath the behavior.

A man may believe, “I cannot handle this feeling.” He may believe, “I need relief right now.” He may believe, “If people really knew me, they would reject me.” He may believe, “Arousal is dangerous.” He may believe, “I have already messed up too much, so what is the point?” Those beliefs shape behavior far more than most men realize.

If you want real healing from porn addiction, you have to identify and challenge the beliefs that keep fueling the cycle. This is one reason deeper work matters.

Journaling matters. Prayer matters. therapy and coaching matter. Honest reflection matters. Parts work can be incredibly helpful here too, because it helps a man see that different parts of him are carrying different burdens and trying to protect him in different ways.

Ending the Inner War of Porn Addiction

One of the most helpful ways I understand recovery is through the lens of parts.

There may be one part of you that wants integrity, purity, and peace. There may be another part that wants relief, pleasure, and escape. There may be another part that feels terrified of failure. Another part may feel ashamed. Another may be angry. Another may be lonely.

When these parts are polarized and fighting each other, porn addiction often intensifies. One part cracks down with harsh control. Another part rebels and wants release. Then a critic attacks you afterward. That inner war becomes exhausting.

Healing begins when you stop treating yourself like the enemy and start getting curious about what is happening inside you.

That does not mean you excuse porn use. It means you start understanding the system beneath it. Which part of you wants escape right now? What pain is it trying to relieve? Which part is panicking? Which part feels dirty? Which part is trying to protect your integrity? This kind of self-awareness can completely change the recovery process.

A man who learns to lead his inner world with curiosity, courage, and compassion becomes much more capable of lasting change than the man who only knows how to attack himself.

How to Respond to Cravings Without Shame

A craving does not have to become a relapse.

One of the most practical shifts a man can make is learning how to slow down and respond to desire differently. Many men panic when arousal or craving shows up. They immediately interpret it as danger. Then shame floods the system, and the whole cycle intensifies.

Instead, I encourage men to practice something much different. Pause. Notice what is happening. Name the craving. Notice the fear or shame attached to it. Get curious. Ask what the craving is trying to do for you. Ask what feeling underneath it needs attention. Then stay with the discomfort instead of trying to instantly discharge it.

This is where emotional regulation for porn addiction becomes real. A man learns that he can feel desire without obeying it. He can feel discomfort without being ruled by it. He can experience arousal without collapsing into panic or indulgence.

That is a major breakthrough in porn addiction recovery. It gives a man back his agency.

The goal is not to become a man who never feels anything. The goal is to become a man who can feel deeply without being dominated by what he feels.

Healing Porn Addiction Also Means Healing Sexuality

This is such an important point. Many men are trying to quit porn while still carrying deep fear, confusion, grief, and shame around sexuality itself. That inner conflict can sabotage recovery.

Healing sexuality after porn addiction requires more than behavior change. It often requires grieving what porn distorted. It requires confronting the ways you used your body, your mind, and other people in ways that did not align with love.

It requires retraining your view of desire, connection, and intimacy. It requires becoming more honest, more reverent, and more whole.

That process can be emotional. It can feel vulnerable. But that does not mean something is going wrong. It often means something real is finally being faced.

A lot of men need to hear this: the pain that surfaces in recovery is often part of recovery. The sadness, grief, and regret are not always signs that you are broken beyond repair. Sometimes they are signs that numbness is leaving and truth is being felt.

Real Recovery Happens in Relationship

Porn offers false intimacy. It imitates connection while deepening isolation. That is why real recovery from porn addiction has to involve relationship.

Addiction thrives in secrecy. Shame thrives in silence. Healing grows in trustworthy connection.

A man needs spaces where he can tell the truth and not be destroyed for it. He needs relationships where he can be known. He needs brothers, mentors, therapists, coaches, or group settings where honesty is met with steadiness and wisdom. He needs to experience that his humanity does not make him unworthy of love.

This does not mean every person is safe. It does mean that long-term freedom from porn addiction becomes much more likely when a man stops isolating and starts building a life of real support, truth, and repair.

The human soul longs to know and be known. Porn cannot satisfy that longing. It can only counterfeit it.

Final Thoughts on How to Overcome Porn Addiction

If you want to know how to overcome porn addiction, start here: bring the hidden life into the light. Stop building your life around secrecy. Stop trying to hate yourself into holiness. Stop assuming that more fear will produce freedom.

Instead, begin doing the deeper work. Learn what pain you are escaping. Learn what beliefs are driving the cycle. Learn how to regulate your nervous system.

Learn how to face craving without panic. Learn how to rebuild your life around honesty, effort, meaning, and real connection.

Porn addiction recovery is not just about removing a bad habit. It is about

becoming a more integrated man. A more honest man. A more grounded man. A man who can face himself, face God, face pain, and stay present without running.

That is the kind of freedom I want for you.

Not a polished image. Not a fake streak. Not white-knuckled suppression.

Real healing. Real integrity. Real peace.

That is possible. And it begins when silence loses its grip, shame loses its authority, and truth becomes the place you finally choose to live.

Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, including my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.

If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Join before May 1st to lock in the $130/month Founding Member rate. Learn more here.

If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Apply here to explore coaching with Jake Kastleman.

Recommended Episodes: 

Religious Shame and Porn Addiction

Why You Can’t “Just Stop”: Porn Addiction, Your Nervous System, and Polyvagal Theory Explained

Mindfulness Over Willpower: Ending Porn Addiction Through Self-Awareness and Compassion — A Buddhist Approach to Healing Addiction and Shame

Full Transcription for Episode 143: The Secret Life of Porn Addiction: How Silence and Shame Keep Men Stuck

Jake Kastleman (00:00.16)

Welcome to No More Desire, where we build the mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name is Jake Castleman, and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.

Todd Smithson (00:17.358)

We're on our way home, it's a Sunday. We got to about Baker, California. My daughter then, when she was 13 at the time, she had my phone in the back seat. She came upon a couple of tabs that I had failed. Out of all of the things that I had done my whole life, it failed to close out. And she saw a couple of things that concerned her, obviously.

It's the day where relief begins. It's also the day where the bomb drops on the other party. Their feet are swept out from underneath them and what they thought they knew has suddenly become sand.

It's not just, I have this problem you didn't know about. It's, I have been lying to you for what?

just almost 21 years. She wrote feverishly for a couple of hours. On one side listing her fears, on the other side listing her hopes.

you

Jake Kastleman (01:27.406)

Before we dive in, quick heads up, if you're tired of trying to quit porn on your own and ending up back in the same cycle over and over, the No More Desire Academy is now open. Most men don't stay stuck because they lack willpower, my friend. They stay stuck because they don't have an effective system yet that they're following. The Academy has been in development for years as I've worked with men throughout the world. It is my new structured recovery program for men who want more than just information or accountability.

Inside, I help men build lasting freedom using weekly coaching, a private brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. These help you get to the root of cravings, relapse, and the deeper patterns that are keeping you stuck. This is for men who are ready to stop fighting alone and start building recovery alongside other men in a structured recovery path. When you join

before May 1st, you will lock in the founding member rate of $130 per month for life. After that, the price goes up to 150. Head to nomordesire.com slash academy to learn more. All right, back to the episode. It's that moment where what a man has kept hidden finally comes to light. Not gradually, not on his terms, but all at once. For some men, it's a random Tuesday night.

For others, it's a moment they never saw coming, like sitting in a car on a long drive home from a family trip. And in that moment, it's not just, have a problem. It's I've been living a double life. What most people don't understand is that porn addiction isn't just about the behavior. It's about the weight of a secret life carried for years and sometimes decades. It's the slow erosion of who you are.

It's losing passion, losing presence, losing connection, while doing everything you can to still look like a good man on the outside. And it's this weight of this double life that can crush your spouse. Most of the time, the men who struggle with this aren't bad men. They're men with values, men who believe in God, in family, in integrity. But somewhere along the way, they were never taught how to understand their sexuality, only how to suppress it, avoid it,

Jake Kastleman (03:51.308)

feel ashamed of it. And when you combine the high standards with silence and with shame, you don't get freedom. You get secrecy. You get isolation. And eventually, you get stuck in addiction a lot of times. Today's episode is a raw, honest conversation with my friend Todd, a man who carried this for over 30 years before everything came to the surface. We're going to talk about what that moment was like, what it cost him, and more importantly,

what it took to finally step out of the shadows and begin real recovery. Before we dive in, I remind you to follow this podcast and shoot me a rating so that others who are looking for help can find it and hit that notification button so that you can keep finding it. All right, let's dive in. Todd Smithson, welcome my friend. It's so great to have you,

Great to be here with Jake.

Yeah, yeah. It's so cool to have a close friend and a neighbor on the podcast. is actually the first time that I've ever done this. A fellow man in recovery, right? With years of sobriety under his belt and someone who can share their story. And this is something I'm excited about, man. So, so excited about. So I want to start there with just you telling your story.

First off, it takes some courage to come on here and I love the vulnerability and your willingness to do that. So let's just dive into kind of your upbringing. We're focusing on conservative and Christian culture, right? And how unfortunately and inadvertently as we grow up within a conservative and Christian culture, how this can actually feed into things like porn and sex addiction. None of us mean for this and there are so many things that are so

Jake Kastleman (05:45.846)

I love my Christian faith as you do as well. But I wanna talk about how that fed into your own addiction behind the scenes, the shame, the fear, and then also the other aspects of your story, man, and just whatever you wanna share. You know who listens to this, so people would just love to know you, man.

Yeah, so thanks for having me on. It's the second time I've been on a podcast episode to talk about it. Once with my therapist who I was very fortunate to come upon through a couple of trials and errors. This was starting about four, well, I'll give an exact date. So July 18th, just as I think every story, you could start back at the beginning. I'm actually going to start where my story started to be told.

And then we'll, we will circle back to where it comes from. So July 18th, 2021, we're on our way home. It's a Sunday and we just finished a seven day trip in Carlsbad, California, which has been a tradition for our family and extended family on my wife's side. So this was the day, the trip back home. So we, got to about Baker, California.

which is just about an hour and a half outside of Westpac.

I know the place.

Todd Smithson (07:11.19)

Long stretch of road there. Yeah. nothing to see.

Not a whole lot.

Todd Smithson (07:19.694)

So my daughter then, which she was 13 at the time, she had my phone in the back seat, along with my son was back there just kind of minding his own business on his phone, watching shows, listening to music. And she was on my phone, didn't have her own at that point. And so it was kind of tooling around. And as a result of that, she came upon a couple of tabs that I had failed.

You know, out of all of the things that I had done my whole life, it failed to close out. And, and she saw a couple of things that concerned her obviously. And if she were here, we could tell you the, the challenge it was for her to, to actually speak up and say something. She wondered if it was her place or if she should say something. So fortunately she did. She had the courage. She texted my wife.

who was sitting next to me in the front seat and said, hey, mom, I saw a couple of things on dad's phone that is kind of concerning. So Baker, we pull off, get to the rest stop there and my wife and...

Todd Smithson (08:41.038)

just a bit of confusion trying to figure out how she should say it, just said it and told me that our daughter had seen that and said what's going on. And I was 49 years old then, I'm 53 now. And it was high time that I was hired pretending that I didn't have a problem. So,

I just said, I've had a lifelong problem and

Wow. Wow. Yeah.

in a six hour, six and a half hour ride from there to home that probably felt more like six weeks.

Yes, that is one of the things I'm thinking about is the timing on this stuff sometimes out of the blue, completely unexpected. But it's that moment where you say, okay, I'm caught and it's time for me to divulge this. And on a California trip in Baker. then you share this story with a...

Jake Kastleman (09:57.472)

a therapist, how does that come about? you actually, was this, did you get on a podcast shortly after that or this is years later that you got on another show and shared this?

So that's again July 18th. So that would be officially what was referred to in 12 step circles and things as D-Day. Right. It's the day where relief begins for

the perpetrator, the one, the addict. It's also the day where the bomb drops on the other party, where their whole world is, their feet are swept out from underneath them and what they thought they knew has suddenly become kind of sand.

Yes. And all the, all the lies. This is one of the things that's hard for a lot of guys to understand. And I don't know how you related to it at the time, but it's not just, I have this problem you didn't know about. It's I have been lying to you for what 20 years or whatever it's been.

Married for, I mean, we're 25 years now. So just almost 21 years.

Jake Kastleman (11:03.31)

I 21 years and some guys I work with, know, they're in their 60s, right? When their wives find out. So I've been doing this for 40 years and you haven't. And so all this crushing weight begins to hit the betrayed partner over the days and weeks and months following of how did I not know this? How could I have been so foolish? Sometimes that's one of the beliefs that comes up. Can I trust anything that?

my husband says he is or anything that he says to me. What was this like at that time for her and kind of for you in working with her through this? it quite messy? It ranges all over the map. So I'd love to hear a little more about what this was like for you guys.

Yeah, I mean personality wise neither one of us in our marriage we would both say that we had a happy marriage Good low conflict neither one of us are high conflict people So not looking for a fight We could we could talk but I think that the depths of our souls Maybe on both sides had yet to be

Hmm, ASK

Todd Smithson (12:17.486)

Yeah, certainly mine, you know, so there's a couple of miracles that probably happened in that process, one of which she, I wish that you could see the notebook that she started immediately in the car from Baker to start to write. She wrote feverishly for a couple of hours on one side, listing her fears on the other side, listing her hopes.

Wow

Jake Kastleman (12:49.614)

That shows incredible strength. It's so crucial for spouses to go through that process. I'm amazed that she so quickly took the initiative to do that.

And one of her fears immediately was, what does this mean about our marriage? What does it also mean about whether I wanted her?

Okay, so she was immediately thinking, well, did this mean that, that she no longer wants to be married to me? She, she didn't, it was interesting that she didn't necessarily go directly to, I'm done with him.

Maybe he's done with me.

So as we probably drove for, I don't know, it'd probably been 30 minutes, 30 or 45 minutes from Baker. you know, tears are running down my eyes. You know, I'm, I, we're both in silence, turmoil, heads turned away. Not, not because I think we, we hated each other necessarily, but we just didn't know what to say.

Todd Smithson (13:56.024)

There, and we had two kids in the back, so it probably wasn't the geophysical time to have a conversation. But in the midst of that, you know, I certainly didn't feel it was my place to extend anything to her. So, but through the darkness of the moment, the proverbial metaphorical darkness, she reached her left hand over and set it on my leg.

Jake Kastleman (14:26.785)

Wow!

And I took her hand. And we probably held hands for, I would guess probably 15 minutes or so with silence, nothing said. It was just more an unspoken extension, a first kind of olive branch of, I'm still here.

Jake Kastleman (14:53.102)

Thanks, Grace, man.

Todd Smithson (14:58.616)

So then when we got home, was Sunday night. It was, we sat down because she was hysterical in tears upstairs and kids are asking what's going on. So we sat down together in the living room and I shared my history with them.

Gosh, all that night.

Todd Smithson (15:29.718)

that night so

What was that like?

It was both,

Todd Smithson (15:37.964)

It was both relieving and terrifying.

Todd Smithson (15:45.774)

Our kids, you know, did nothing but extend their love back to me and in the hopes and I'm not sure what was going through their head. It wasn't a time that they spoke a lot of their feelings and trying to process it. I think our daughter probably, she had the most to go through because she was the discovery person and

what it meant about being in that position, but also

Todd Smithson (16:19.278)

her image of a dad and all of those feelings that go on. So, so that's, and then I immediately called Ecclesiastical Leader to meet Monday morning. And I went and started a process of further confession to involve other parties of which at that point in my life, it was 35 years of silence. So this wasn't, you know,

And there are others that I've heard, but some have had the experience of maybe hit or miss having some conversations with somebody along the way that knew that. I never had a single conversation.

from the time I was exposed to 10. It was a secret.

What was that like carrying that secret for you for 35 years, Todd?

I mean, like you go through periods of time of really attending to the ability to conceal, learning how to hide it, preserve some type of image that is worth caring for. And then there's times where you're completely worn down and just on the edge of saying, I've got to come forward.

Jake Kastleman (17:28.085)

Certainly.

Todd Smithson (17:45.231)

I can't live like this anymore. This double life is just too difficult.

Yes. And I think one of the things I think about Todd is how this is the case with anything that we need to hide, right? This is specifically with pornography and this is such a heavy weight for so many of us to bear, so many men to bear these days and some outside of this culture, this value system might think, well, hide what? mean, yeah, I don't tell my wife about that or what, guys, boys will be boys, guys do this.

but we hold a value system and a belief system that we carry, is, you know, this, in our faith, it's law of chastity, right? But it's sexual purity, right? And the sanctity of sexual acts. And this goes against what we believe is God's will for sexuality, right? And so to carry that for so many years and in every...

be able to share or tell that to anyone. And I would say, you know, there's no one that kind of walks out and is, well, maybe I'm wrong, but I'd say most people walk out and are proud of, I watch porn every day, you know, that's me. I just, you know, and they just share that with everybody they want to share it with and they're just so happy about it. I think that most people understand, yeah, at least this is a waste of my time.

or a waste of my energy, my potential, or it's not a good use of my energy. And then on the higher end, right, of the shame and the guilt and the fear it is, I hide this at all costs because if anybody found out, what would they think of me? I know for me, throughout my teenage years, it was just very unclear. Like I just, I hid it even from myself, right, that this was going on.

Jake Kastleman (19:53.922)

let alone ever talking to anybody else about it. And I was very privileged to have a father who was, he was a pioneer in this field of porn addiction recovery. know, heck, he wrote the drug of the new millennium, right? I mean, he was going around the world, speaking to people about this. So I knew that he knew about it. I just didn't know how to approach him about it. Didn't feel safe to do that. Now I was a very anxious child.

Right? But I didn't really even want to accept that it was an issue for me in the first place. I think that took me several years to come to the conclusion, this is a problem. And I do have an addiction. This thing, because I just heard the word addiction over years. I didn't know what it meant or what it felt like until I experienced it. You know?

Mm-hmm.

Todd Smithson (20:45.45)

It takes a long time and like the progressive nature of of the, how often it's occurring and how, what it's overtaking in a life. So, you you mentioned these, different spectrums of, of usages and beliefs around it and those that may not hold the same value system with it. But they may divulge, like you said, even arrogantly that I watched this, it's perfectly normal. It's part of everybody's life.

And I think that outside of just holding a value system around it, I don't think that something can be inherently bad for you just based on the belief that it's bad. I think that it's bad or it's not. So, and you've done a lot on your podcast to talk about neuroscience and the effect of the welcoming system and those things. So, know, pornography or any type of addictive behavior, compulsion, is going to have

an effect over time of creating a pattern in the brain where it starts to love less and less and less and less of life. Like those things that it starts to strip away are because the brain is really good at forming a pattern of going back to saying, Oh, I have a, I have a way to find this release and this relief in a really simple, low effort way. for me, it manifested over 25 years of

I grew up, I loved sports. I sang, I did, I painted. I participated in golfing and I had a passion about those things. And slowly over time, my passion for each of those things faded.

Yes, and it goes back to at this point, once this episode launches, it will have been last month, you know, the theme was base and noble pleasures, right? We want rewiring the nervous system. And when we pursue base pleasures, whether it be porn, which is one of the primary ones these days, that's incredibly intense and it spikes dopamine to unnaturally high levels. had Patrick Devos on the...

Jake Kastleman (23:02.872)

podcast that talked about research that says pornography spikes dopamine to 300 % the level of natural and normal sex. Right? So, obviously something very unnatural about it. And there's no effort or investment from my end at all, which is extremely important when it comes to how the nervous system functions and how hormones and neurotransmitters function. I have to

I have to give equal effort or pain into something, investment into something to get out a reward in order for it to develop me and as a human being for me to feel balanced. If that's not the case with things like porn or social media or to be frank, video games or TV, these other means of entertainment. Now I am imbalancing my nervous system, my hormones, my dopamine urgic system. And Todd, you actually have quite a bit of background on this. Maybe we'll...

We'll dive into that a bit, I'd love, I know that you're intimately involved with understanding how dopamine works. Maybe you want to speak to that a bit as far as this balance in the system that you've come to understand both for yourself and through this research into what dopamine's about, what is it for and what happens to us when we imbalance it so deeply with things like porn.

So, mean, dopamine is a basic neurotransmitter that we've come to know, I think in contemporary terms as the pleasure chemical, which probably has given a little bit of a misnomer. It's not that it's not associated with pleasure, but it is also associated with pursuit. So, as Dr. Anna Lemke discusses as a teeter totter, a really simple metaphor for it. To say when you have something that spikes dopamine,

then you have these gremlins that jump on the opposite side to see comeostasis in the brain by pushing on the pain side. So the effect of pushing on the pain side is that it sets us below the dopamine, the baseline. So it actually drops below your baseline level. So when you're low like that, it's crash, cravings, all the things that we would get normally even with like eating a Snickers bar and then in the afternoon, all of a sudden I'm really sluggish.

Todd Smithson (25:29.47)

And your brain's saying, I know exactly where to get that high again. And it can be really easy to get it. it has everything to do with behavioral adaptations towards things that become meaningful or the brain recognizes as I can get this type of high by doing this. But it turns into rather than a seeking for pleasure, it's actually more of an escape from pain.

It's like I'm trying to get out of this state. And so I repeatedly go back to the easiest way to do that, which is why like the same thing that you said is that pornography and social media just for simple uses are high stimulus, low effort type of a thing that you can get really quickly. So going to the gym and running for 30 minutes or going outside and walking or painting a picture or playing the piano for 30 minutes, those types of things.

You have to do for much, much longer periods of time to get even close to the same reaction. So, so over time, the brain is just learning this mechanism of saying, I don't need to do those things. I don't even enjoy, I don't get the same type of enjoyment out of that anymore. At least neurochemically, I don't. But, but the effect of that over time is that the progression ends up dropping your dopamine levels below baseline persistently where you're almost always in a pain state.

You're never able to get back to where it was. So now you've got anxiety, you've got depression, all of those things that set in because you've basically dysregulated the system by creating a persistence where now the neurotransmitters have created a resistance, the receptors have shut down.

Yes, and worth saying that ADD and ADHD, these are dopamine dysregulation challenges in part, right? So if we have these things that are depleting dopamine, we're often going to have symptoms of, can't focus, I'm not motivated, right, I'm not present. I know that is how my life was throughout all my teenage years and up into my early 20s.

Jake Kastleman (27:44.896)

I couldn't focus. I had all these ambitions and dreams and things that I wanted to do. I felt that drive, but I didn't feel the neurological and psychological capacity to do that. My expectations were far higher than, and what I felt like I was capable was far higher than what I actually was. And as I came off of porn and I came off of,

Social media was never much of a thing for me, but I played a lot of video games. I watched a lot of TV. As I decreased these and decreased junk food and processed foods, all these things that are dopamine, they lead to dopamine dysregulation. They spike dopamine to unnaturally high levels and you dip below baseline. I found I was more motivated to work. I, you know, I had this dream of building a business. I was more motivated to write content and to come up with ideas and to start to...

think of these things. I literally lacked the capacity to even strategize or approach the idea of something like a business because I didn't have the focus or the motivation for it. I just couldn't do it. Was that some of your experience as well with your addiction or what were some of the greatest ways that it impacted your life and the things you noticed improved once you started Get Sober?

I mean, like even getting sober. for me, it's now been since July 18th, 2021. So I feel fortunate enough to feel like I haven't relapsed since then. So that doesn't happen for everybody, but I relapsed a thousand times before that. This is the last time. So it's not like I didn't go through that experience. There's always a...

relapse, relapse, relapse until there's not one.

Jake Kastleman (29:46.082)

Yeah, exactly.

So my last was prior to July 18th of 2021. So it's been four years and eight months.

Awesome.

That's a blessing like in a way that in some ways, just the accomplishment of it is climbing a mountain. That you can say you accomplished something because in that four years and eight months, it has not been easy. It's

You say it's climbing a mountain. It's like climbing a mountain every day.

Todd Smithson (30:22.463)

Yeah, right.

peaking, peaking at the end of, you fall asleep and you're like, I peaked the mountain, I made it. And then you've got to do the same thing the next day. Until you just get strong enough to, now I'm a mountain climber, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. So those, during that four years and eight months, it's been a lot of unwinding unlearning and, then also adding understanding to the layers of the story that I'm now telling. So back when I said my story didn't start to be told until four years and eight months ago, it lived underneath me. I didn't know how to speak. It didn't know what to say about it. Didn't know what drove it. All the different whys that were there.

So that four years and eight months, like to your point of focus and motivation, I mean, I struggled with that through the four years and eight months of still trying to say, can I get up in the morning and put in straight without, without stopping two hours, three hours, four hours of work and feel like I'm falling back in love with this as meaningful to me.

And, you know, there's been other challenges in that, that four years as well that have, they're just a hit to the ego and hit to spending a year, I mean, a lifetime of

Todd Smithson (31:53.11)

of thinking that I could have been so much more. know, so that by itself, Jake, has been, it's gotten a little bit better, but I've had moments where it was very difficult to not hold myself in contempt and think that I lived a wasted life.

Yes. And Todd, I'll say, as someone who knows you on a personal level, you're a truly, somebody who truly gives off light and is authentic and is a powerful person to talk to with powerful ideas. And so you've, as you and I well know, insight is born from pain, right? And you've been through that pain. We all have our own crosses to bear and God bears them with us.

And so I wouldn't wish that upon anybody. Not, not my worst enemy as they say, but you do learn through pain. Before we get back to the show, I want to take a few minutes to share a story of one of my clients. Because if you're someone who's been battling with porn addiction yourself and feeling stuck, I think that you'll relate to this. My client, Gabe, came to me discouraged about the impact his porn use was having on his life. It got in the way of his productivity at work.

made him feel more distant from his wife and kids and caused him to experience brain fog, lack of motivation and a lack of confidence. All things that I relate to deeply and personally. Gabe was a good man. He valued his family, served his community. He had a good job and he had ambition. He could even get a decent streak of sobriety sometimes, but nothing long lasting. Gabe's problem was not discipline. It was a lack of knowledge and skill. He didn't understand how to regulate his emotions and train his nervous system properly.

so the cravings, anger, and other painful emotions could be moved through effectively. By the time he finished my program, Gabe had five months of sobriety without a single relapse. His perspective on life had changed dramatically, and for the first time, he felt fully connected and in harmony with his principles and who he was. I'll share a few of his words directly. I would leave every session with Jake feeling like my eyes had been opened to a new level of understanding that changed my self-talk.

Jake Kastleman (34:19.17)

my relationship with my spouse, and my ability to connect with my children. The program felt incrementally tailored to my needs and had the exact building blocks I needed to live a sober lifestyle and mindset. I've kept in touch with Gabe since then. His success has continued and he is now seven months sober. Gabe's story is one of many. Men who've joined my intensive coaching program and experienced sobriety. If you want to join these men, dig deep.

And finally, be sober for good. Head to nomoresire.com slash program to learn more. Back to the show.

Jake Kastleman (34:59.5)

I love what you've told. Unless there's anything else you want to share about your story. I want to kind of move into this topic of Christian culture and this addiction and specifically our relationship to sexuality. Right? Because this is a really, really hard one. it's part of me says that I shouldn't even talk about it because it's almost like

would the right word be defaming my religion? But I think it's very important and very,

It isn't inherent to the faith as far as sexual shame, I think, but it's definitely, it's definitely, you know, grown through some of the things that we teach in some of the parts of our culture, especially you and I growing up in, you grew up in the LDS faith. Is that right Todd, I assuming? Yes. So we both grew up in the LDS faith, very conservative Christian culture. We, we kind of,

So many of us carry this idea of sex is bad, sex is dangerous, sex is something that I shouldn't talk about and it's secret. What was your understanding of that growing up? Again, this is not shared explicitly, know, sex is dangerous and bad. That's not the thing, but it's definitely carried. what was your experience of that growing up?

The messaging and how it's delivered, it tends to demand that interpretation. Right. There's not much other direction it can go. So as I've thought about this, it frequently comes back to me for the same type of issue is that how a story starts, the origin of it matters a lot. So what I mean by that is if you change the plot, you change everything else in a story.

Todd Smithson (37:08.866)

So we, tend to in the Christian world, start from an origin story that, that goes something like, we're bad and God is mad. And, and so the project becomes, I'm unacceptable. And we start to define certain things that make us increasingly more problematic, less acceptable to God. And now I need to have through some type of project of

repentance and intervention with, with Jesus on there to make me more acceptable to God again. Okay. So, so it starts from a place where it's entirely centered around me. It's pretty consumed and obsessed with I'm unacceptable. And now I need to prove my acceptability through some type of process. So for me, that's grown into.

the exact 180 degree backwards story.

Todd Smithson (38:13.88)

So I don't think that that's an expansive story. That's a really narrow, constricting story. It has very little possibility of doing what we would say commonly in Jesus's words. When you lose yourself, you find yourself. So most of the idea of saying, worshiping God or looking to God or having a relationship with God,

inherently is suggesting that I'm too small to make meaning all by myself. I need to point myself to a much bigger, greater good than just me. But if you start with a story that is deficient, that I understand myself as just depraved and deficient from the beginning, and now I've got to find a way to become worthy in his eyes again.

then it's a pretty exhausting.

project.

Yeah, it is. I think, again, this concept of, you know, we are sinners, right? I think we really misinterpret this. You know, I've had to do a lot of work myself on these concepts of, you know, I am a sinner, right? And the story in the Bible with the man who beats his chest, right? And says, God, forgive me for I am a sinner. And how do I reconcile this with

Jake Kastleman (39:48.162)

belief in kind of God's divinity that is within me. And I think it's been extremely powerful for me, you how much I love IFS and you and I have had multiple, multiple conversations surrounding IFS and parts work. And when I start to understand myself in parts, you know, the work of Dr. Richard Schwartz has been revolutionary in saying there is a self

with a capital S, in other words, this spirit of light and goodness, the God image that is within every single one of us. I carry that as a child of God. And then I've got all these parts, right? At the mind and the body and what Richard Schwartz would describe as like little spiritual beings that kind of make up who I am. Sounds like a strange concept to a lot of us when we're unfamiliar with it, but when we have experiences with it, it becomes very helpful, very powerful.

These parts of, if we go to Eastern philosophy, parts of the ego, right, show up in all sorts of roles with all sorts of ideas and they try to protect us through control and they try to help us escape through addiction or addictive behaviors. This transformed my perspective when it comes to things like sexuality, because there are parts of me that would indulge in sexuality endlessly, right, if given the opportunity.

but not because they're bad, but because they appreciate and love expression and the creativity and the beauty and the pleasure and the presence of this wonderful experience. And they are actually polarized with and acting in opposition to very extreme parts of me that would suppress all feeling of sexuality or any type of indulgence.

and these two parts fight and they war inside of me. And I was always taught, at least growing up, that the answer was willpower. The answer is self-control. And we say it all the time, right? Just control yourself, have self-control, have discipline. That is what is going to make you sexually pure. When in reality, it's learning how to get to know these parts of me that are involved in my sexuality.

Jake Kastleman (42:10.646)

and kind of understand them and eventually come to love them and help them calm and move into roles that are better for me, that are actually helpful. But in order to do that, I've got to work with these self-critics inside me too that have become so extreme as kind of spiritualizer parts as Jenna Remersma talks about in her book, Altogether You. They get this idea that

Being a good person is about the rule. It's about following the rules and it's about being pure and it's about doing everything perfect all the time. And when I have this constant state of this, as you say, focus on self, right? Rather than being expansive and connected to love and connected to God and a greater cause. Now it's all about what's my performance like. And that state of kind of ego performance yields itself very well.

to addiction because I'm overwhelmed by trying constantly to perform and to be worthy of that love. Where I think the truth is closer to the love's already there. It's actually already inside me.

Yeah, it's so interesting to see those parts because when I come back to responding to how you explain IFS, and I love that conversation because it's both fascinating and also very pragmatic. It's very useful.

Yeah, it's summer, so...

Todd Smithson (43:40.206)

If you switch the plot of the story, okay, so one of the things in the founding Christian, the Bible story is the garden. Okay. And most of the time we have interpreted it as something went wrong. That mankind stepped away from, and then because of that, they were thrust out of the presence of God as a result of that. So there are many interpretations and there are lots of useful ways to talk about the story.

But one that is rarely discussed is that the garden was part of what was finished on the earth in the story. The rest of it was unfinished. And there's a sense that God was sending us off, like we do our own children, to extend the garden, to become creators, co-creators. So we're working in collaboration with God.

on this project that is not about me at all. It's actually about me becoming a creator, somebody that I can go build and add what I see in the garden out into the rest of the world. And the fact of the matter is that along the way, we have to learn a lot about ourselves as to what serves as barriers for me to engage in that project.

And most of the barrier for me is the one that tends to turn it back in on me. That's a, there's a huge barrier to say, if I have to prove that I'm worthy, that I'm acceptable, then everything I do is going to be in some effort to say something about me, to tell a story about me. It's never going to be to extend or to love life, to love other people. It's going to be an effort.

to extract love.

Jake Kastleman (45:42.444)

Yeah, right. And I'm reflecting Todd, as you're saying that how, again, if you start from that basis of, I have to earn God's love. Now, just that underlying belief and assumption. Now I believe, I'm inherently bad and inherently flawed, right?

So therefore, sexuality, right, if I then label that as inherently bad and flawed, now I'm approaching things from what I would not say is a place of spirit or a place of God or a place of the higher self, which is of truth and love. And I think that the truth is God created sexuality. It is good and it is beautiful. And God created us, as you're saying, to be co-creators with Him, that He actually

inherently values us, you know, in a way that cannot be quantified, right? But again, why do we get this so wrong in faith and religion, the place where I think that this should be taught the most? And I think it is being shared more and more, to be fair.

Have we gotten it wrong for so long? What do you think about that?

I think that relationship is difficult and the fundamental story of humanity is about relationship. But so much of our lives being in relationship is trying to get someone else to do what I want them to do. Which is another me project. It turns into coercion. It turns into lots of different tools that I can shortcut my way.

Todd Smithson (47:40.0)

into getting you to behave in the best ways possible. So behavior is, we want good behavior. We want to learn to do good, but how we get there often creates the exact problem that we're trying to get rid of.

Yes, exactly. Always, that's the nature of the ego, nature of the natural man. We cause the problem we're seeking to fix by trying to force and control things, right?

Yeah, I mean, you and I, if we have a conversation that runs into a point of disagreement, then we can go one of two ways. We can either really draw on each other and listen carefully to what the other person is saying and then ask like, well, how did you come to that conclusion? Or we can fight each other. We can put up our hands and start to push. And the harder I push on your hand,

the harder you'll push back.

Mm-hmm.

Todd Smithson (48:43.214)

That's Newton's third law of physics right there. People and Oxford forces.

And that's so fascinating how that really does work that way, both internally and externally, right? When it comes to something like pornography or sexual addiction, it is born of this internal polarization. You know, there are multiple factors. We could talk about biologically and neurologically and things, but from a psychological standpoint, and for that matter, a nervous system standpoint, when we understand dorsal versus sympathetic, but we won't get into all that necessarily. But...

These parts inside me that war and they fight, right? And one part says, need to be pure and you need to always think pure thoughts and never have sexual thoughts of any nature. And then another part that says, I wanna express this without bounds and go crazy. Now I have the grounds for sexual addiction, right? Same way in a family, you know, where there's a father who's extremely strict.

and overly authoritarian, right? With no sense of compassion or questions for his children, but is only demanding and controlling. Not always, but often we'll have kids that then rebel, right? Whether when they're in the house or after they leave, they will then go into impulsive actions, develop predictions, go crazy, party, et cetera.

something about, I don't know, the human spirit, the way that our minds work, it just demands that. Whereas balance and like you're saying, the openness, getting to know and understand, being curious about each other or about our own, the parts of our own minds, we then move into a place of collaboration. And again,

Todd Smithson (50:39.49)

Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (50:45.486)

coming back to kind of this idea of sexual purity, that's where this gets difficult, right? Because it's good, think, to be sexually pure and to aim for that, right? To live in a chaste way. But it so easily diverts into this performance and this demanding for perfection from an internal standpoint. I should not

desire sex and if I do, there's something wrong with me. least that's, again, what I grew up with, feeling that a lot. I know there's so many who have.

Mm-hmm.

Todd Smithson (51:27.15)

It's definitely what I absorbed, what I and my interpretation of it, whether it was intended or not. I think many have taken that. I think that that's the shortcut out of an anxiety born of a conversation that's difficult to have anyways. Well, and now it ends up being, let me just tell you what's forbidden. And then we can check that box off that we've had this conversation. And then I'll cross my fingers between now and when you're 20 or 25 or 30 that's

All goes well. And meanwhile, you have a storm going on inside of a boy at 10 to 12 where testosterone spikes. You know, he's got this new part of his life that he didn't ask for. It's not like he made a deal with anything to say, Hey, can you give me something that will just make me bigger and stronger? And by the way, will also bring in these desires that I have no idea what to do with.

It'll make me feel completely unhinged and like I can't control any of my impulses, right?

So, and then you just go silent on it. And the only thing, the only message you have is just don't do it. You know, watch out, we'll give you the lines to avoid. And if you cross those lines, then the story is that you're now less acceptable to God.

Yes

Todd Smithson (52:56.782)

I mean, that's a shame message. That's, and that message drives the whole problem underground. doesn't surface. doesn't give the courage to, to face life and the struggles in a shared way, because you and I both know the disease of addiction is the disease of isolation.

It finds, I mean, it breeds and grows and thrives in isolation.

So does shame. I mean, that's where shame leads everything. It is into secrecy and silence. And you add a layer of judgment to that and it's going to flourish.

And so do you think, you know, one of the answers for us, what has come up for me quite a bit in learning about just sexual education and how to, you know, be a good parent as far as teaching our kids about this and about sexuality or about pornography and these things in a way that leads to something healthy is just to have ongoing dialogues and conversation, to have it be a normal topic.

in the households and that is something, again, I feel like if we go back to this kind of conflict on one side of the spectrum, people can just be like, yeah, well just, I mean, being sexual is just part of being human. So go crazy, do whatever you want. And then on the other end, we have the, don't talk about it, this is a bad, we don't speak about that here. The straight and narrow path, right, as we...

Jake Kastleman (54:41.518)

call it or the middle way, right? As it's spoken of in Eastern philosophy, think one way of saying this is, is having that ongoing awareness, that ongoing dialogue, that kind of moving and flowing with the challenges and the pain and the difficulties of this is something that is a very powerful force and it can potentially lead to devastation in your life. Like a hundred percent true. If you become a victim to

this part of you and it just pulls you along like a, what is it? Like a bowl, bowl who has the ring around its nose, right? And you're being pulled. Nobody likes that experience. You don't want to be, you don't want to be that bowl, right? You want to be a master of your own mind. And I think that's when it comes to guys who aren't religious, that's one of the things that I work with them on. like, well, why should I do this? You know, I get my wife's mad and whatever, but why should I do this?

Do you want something to dominate you? No, you want to be a master of your own mind. And I think that's one point that God is sharing this in His truth, I think, is best I've come to understand it in some ways. I want you to have full agency. I want you to be able to make your own decisions and for this not to rule you. And so there are certain boundaries and limitations in which you need to act with this. But then He's also calling for the beauty and the expression of it.

And that is, such a hard concept to wrestle with, right? Boundaryed, but also it's beautiful and creative and good. I think it's difficult for us as human beings to understand what that means, how to navigate that.

It's, it is really difficult. I think that one of the things that you think of electricity in general, and I would tend to think now about sexuality, not as a moral thing, but as an amoral thing. So as a neutral topic, like if we just put it out there at first, electricity is a neutral topic. Okay. We don't come at the conversation around electricity as it's bad or good. We can say.

Todd Smithson (56:58.41)

Okay, here's electricity. We have a way to harness it. Now can we put it into some type of form that it can be useful? Yeah, yes, we can. It also can be quite dangerous and disastrous. that allows the conversation to flow in both directions so we can explore a neutral thing that then we can see how it can become destructive, both self-destructive, but also relationally destructive. There's no question, like for someone to say that sexuality is just how we are.

Well, that's not untrue. And it is how we are. the thing is, it's unique in that it's with other people. And the impact of sex is not just about pleasure. It's about emotions and spiritual realities and bodies and all of those things that come together that you say, well, if I end up using you as a person,

Where does that leave you as a person walking away from this experience? Where does it leave me as a person thinking that that's who I am? Is that I'm just using this, it's not an expression at all. It's a consuming thing. It's I'm consuming the other person to meet my needs.

And I think that inevitably impacts us, whether you want to refer to it spiritually or psychologically, if I'm using another person like that, whether via a screen or in the flesh, it's going to impact me psychologically. It's going to break me down and desensitize me, right? And it's going to get in the way of probably the most crucial

thing that I have in my life, which is the ability to connect to other human beings, to feel relationally close to others. When I get in a habit of using others and viewing them as objects, now I can't connect. Now I can't feel others' emotions or my own or feel love. Then that is incredibly miserable. As you say, regardless of your beliefs,

Jake Kastleman (59:16.822)

Right. And so, you know, I think on that, it's not a message of, if I struggle with pornography addiction, I'm a bad person. It's, if you struggle with pornography addiction, that is leading to such deep wounds that need healing. It hurts. It's painful. And that, and, you know, there was a previous podcast I did a while back about how porn is,

self-inflicted abuse, right? We're continuously doing something that several parts of us disagree with doing in favor of other parts that are indulging in this to try to soothe us and to try to bring us escape and to try to balance our nervous systems. And it's not working. So the message from God, I think it would only be one of compassion, you know.

and that there's deeper reasons for going to it.

Yeah, think, let me, I wanna know what you think about a couple of things, but. Yeah. Let me just, I think this says it very, very well. It says, like a river that can either nourish cropland or destroy villages and flood, sexual desire itself exists beyond our categories of good and evil. Its potential for both creation and destruction makes it not immoral, but amoral.

a force of nature that demands understanding rather than judgment. Young males typically experience sexual desire as an almost overwhelming force, something that seems to arise from outside their conscious control. This isn't weakness or moral failure, it's biology doing exactly what evolution designed it to do. The challenge lies in developing the wisdom to channel this energy constructively while it's operating at full intensity.

Todd Smithson (01:01:14.85)

This is where many traditional approaches to sexual ethics have failed. By treating male sexual desires as inherently sinful or problematic, they create inner conflict rather than integration. The demon hand doesn't disappear through repression, it merely goes underground, often emerging in more problematic ways. True ethical development requires acknowledging both aspects. The tremendous creative power of sexuality and its potential for harm

when unconsciously expressed.

I imagine you wrote that Todd, is that right? So good. It's just fantastic. You're such a great writer, man. And I, um, I love it when you share those texts with me and they're always like the last one you shared with me. I am, I am. I'm trying to become a faster reader, but you send it and I take like a week to get to it. Cause I'm just like, Oh man, I need to read it, but I just delay and delay and delay. So I want, um, I want you to know that it's, so meaningful to me and it's so good. Um, but.

Yeah, a while back.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:16.29)

I think one of the places, and I agree with all that, again, very well said, one of the places that we get so tripped up, and you're saying this, it is an energy that needs to be channeled. What does that mean? What is sexual energy? And there have been many thought leaders that talk about, and throughout, I mean, since ancient times, sexual energy is life energy. It is, we can use it to procreate.

Yes, and we can use it to pursue sexual relationship, but it's also a pure life energy, a passion, the energy for passion and pursuit, right? And action and...

That's where Eros, the idea of Eros comes from, is as an energy force, as an outflowing force, it's not strictly meant to be erotic, like in the sense that in our colloquial way of using it.

So powerful. See, and truths like that, I just wish were more broadly shared. I think we've lost a lot of those, which is why it's so crucial. You know, you're very much a history buff and you look into the ancient wisdom and things both in inside and outside of religion. And that's a crucial concept. You know, I just didn't know that. I remember the first place I was exposed to that was the idea of transmutation in the book, Think and Grow Rich.

The first place I read that it's like chapter five or so. don't know where it was, but anyway, he says, yeah, he talks about transmutation. He spends a bunch of time talking about that. I was like, what is this? What is going on? He's talking about using sexual energy for creating businesses and making money. I'm just, what? That made no sense to me until I began to began experiencing that. Because again, I was constantly releasing on a daily basis. So I had no idea the energy potential.

Jake Kastleman (01:04:15.704)

that was inside of me. And I think that's a crucial part of this conversation, right, is can I, especially as a parent or understanding this for myself and understanding it is the power of creation as a whole, life energy as a whole. How did you say it with Eros? What's the, I forget exactly how you put it, the original meaning of Eros.

Yeah, it is more looked at as just an energy source, like an expression of that energy that comes from within. But you said it though, it's a creative energy. It's actually a desire to create. Of course, we've completely just flattened it out into nothing but procreation. But it's not just to sustain our species, but it's actually to sustain our species.

Right, right, I love that. Yeah, and so harnessing that energy, that requires emotional regulation, right? It requires my ability to know how can I move through uncomfortable emotion and how can I calm myself when I feel anger?

How can I get in touch with fear and welcome it in and be with it for a while so I can understand what it is that I'm afraid of and move through that fear? Some of these things that I just had no clue were even connected to my cravings for pornography. I, maybe people tried to share that with me and I just couldn't hear it or maybe I just never heard that. I don't know if you were ever taught these things growing up or ever exposed to these ideas or kind of how you came upon them.

yourself.

Todd Smithson (01:06:03.926)

And to be fair, you and me having a conversation as two adult males later in our life looking backwards is considerably different than trying to interest a 12 or 13 year old into saying, do you want to explore and understand this energy that's happening inside of you? There has to be a simpler way to let them in. But I think the biggest thing is

normalizing the conversation, but it's not just normalizing it in words. It's actually normalizing it in just the bodily language that we carry around it. like Jennifer Finlayson-Fife gave an interesting sample of this a couple of years ago where she had a good friend that was explaining to her that she had her two sons that were like probably nine and 11 with her in the grocery store. And they come to a checkout, which is generally lined with magazine covers.

and some of which will have some type of anterly dressed people on it. Right? So she's telling the story that when she came to the checkout and saw the magazines that she put herself between her boys and the magazines as a barrier. And Jennifer says, realize you're just making this worse, right?

Jake Kastleman (01:07:27.982)

And what was her response to that?

Yeah, she didn't really tell much of either story other than Jennifer's just saying, right. If you can't have a conversation with that son, it's like, yeah. Do you, do you find that attractive? Do you want to know why you do?

Right. It's mom, ew, gross. Right.

Her own anxiety about the whole subject, it tells her child, this is not a conversation I can have with my mom.

Jake Kastleman (01:08:01.582)

Exactly. It's the fear that actually fuels the addiction. And I think, again, that's something that's so paradoxical. It was hard for me to start to see and I'm learning more about it all the time. But the fear behind the addiction, right? If I don't fear something or fear...

If I, if it, or if I'm not driven to something because I'm going through fear in my life, at least without fear, there's no addiction because either I have grown up with this belief of sex is something that is so scary and unknowable and I shouldn't think about it and it's bad. so fear, fear, fear, fear, which is all this intense emotion surrounding it.

my mind gets channeled into it. And so now not only is there arousal, there's also fear and then there's also shame. There's also all the grief of all the, you know, girls back in middle school and high school that, you know, I never felt like I was good enough to be with, right? And all that kind of, that kind of, without all that, if you remove all that and you just have arousal,

I think it's quite manageable. think we can be present with and feel like, aroused and cool. Okay. And be able to move on.

love you bring up that because just this on Tuesday, I went and attended a 12 step, step one disclosure.

Jake Kastleman (01:09:44.331)

Okay, yeah.

just had the gentleman read his disclosure. There were like five of us there to listen, chime in, ask some questions. It's really a beautiful opportunity to both hear someone's story, but let them share it in a place where you can say everything that you think about yourself that you think is unworthy of care and have nobody flinch.

Yeah, that that's the moment in time where maybe something really powerful can start to happen because every other time in life for me was like, look, if I let someone in on this part of me, they most certainly will think less of me. If not completely reject me. So everything about my belief is I can't risk this relationship by letting them in. But he,

As he read though, he talked about, used this arousal a lot, but, and we had an interesting conversation that he was vilifying arousal itself.

Like it wasn't just like the behavior that came from it. He was actually saying, I had a relationship to the idea of this biological fact that was already negative. like, and again, Jennifer Finlayson five, she separates those two things to say, you have biology. So you have the physiological reaction that's happening, and then you have the psychology. So those two things are not the same thing.

Todd Smithson (01:11:23.064)

but they get tangled up. And so if I have something physiological that happens, but then I layer on top of that a belief about that, and then that generates a thought and that generates an emotion, and that's all kind of an underlying spiral of shame that's supporting that, then it loops all the way back to that shame that you're feeling is uncomfortable and it triggers the arousal again.

Because the brain is always saying, want out of this shame, I want out of this pain. And so it's like, let's generate this feeling, this physiological effect that will send you back to a place of relief. And then you'll feel bad about that again. And it will just this negative feedback loop. So at some point you've got to change the belief in there that to stop the cycle.

If you believe arousal is a problem, it's going to feed itself.

And it's a problem. And it's not as you and I, when we were discussing this episode, you know, it is not just about conceptually or mentally understanding, okay, sex is good. Sex is not bad. Sex is good. Got it. Right? That's not gonna do anything. Right? But.

to emotionally feel and believe it. And that's where IFS and parts work becomes so powerful, right? Or just deeply reflective journaling or meditation upon something, right? Or prayer, you know, and the power of confession and getting in touch with what are all the things that I believe about this and why, right? And actually taking the time to get in touch with and feel through all of that because something can't be cleared unless it's felt.

Jake Kastleman (01:13:19.584)

I can only move past what I'm willing to fully embrace, which is just completely paradoxical.

So the interesting thing is like, because it's a Christian podcast and people probably will recognize the terms, know, which I would tend to throw them out lightly sometimes because I think they come with a lot of baggage. And, but the word repent is one that I think has been misconstrued all the way down to just an abandonment of behavior. So it's a correction of behavior, but it misses the

Mm, yes.

Todd Smithson (01:13:54.274)

the etymology of the word itself as to where the problem starts. even so the word itself is metanoia, which is beyond the mind. It's to change the mind. So it's actually pointing directly at saying that there's something going on in our mind that is causing the problem. So for instance, like if you just in a simple example of if your whole life, you grew up thinking that homelessness

was the fault of the people that are homeless. That they've made poor choices that landed them in that place. And then suddenly you go work for United Way and you find out a different story. That experience that you go through will be a repentance. It's changing your mind about something you previously misunderstood. So that's going to change your behavior.

downstream from that, because now you will, you may look at policy different, you may look at those people different, you may be less fearful of walking up to somebody like that saying, Hey, tell me a little bit about your life. Tell me what's, what's going on here, as opposed to just stepping away from a really, really long arm and, just judging them from a distance because you, you really know nothing about it. So that's a repentant thing. Well, for you and me, like,

To come to any type of long-term sobriety, my therapist dug in on this deep to say, let's find the limiting beliefs. Let's find the places in your mind that repeatedly come back to, I need some type of relief from this, that it just keeps driving you back. there, you and I talked about this on a previous walk on the Creek path that-

I found out.

Todd Smithson (01:15:53.464)

So fascinating that so often we think of behavior as a linear, just two points connected. One is knowledge and the other is incentive or reward. And if we know something is correct, for instance, I know it's good to eat well, or I know it's good to exercise. And then you give me some type of reward for doing that. The assumption is that we will therefore do it. And yet.

We human beings do not do it. We act so far below, beneath our knowing. Okay. And I don't mean that like in a judgmental way. I mean that a lot of behavior is not driven from the things that we know. It's driven from something deeper inside of us, which when I heard it, he said that third point in the triangle is belief.

You know, and the word belief is the Latin for that is be as the suffix, meaning extra, like, befriend or what's another op that starts with a suffix of the.

Demon.

It's adding some emphasis to latter word to say it's extra this. So, and leaf comes from the Latin term creare, which means from the heart or the heart. So you've got this extra heart. So it's something that actually is embedded in you in like a systematic way. So it's subconscious flowing through you, not at the conscious level, but something beneath it. That belief is embedded in my system. so.

Todd Smithson (01:17:38.91)

What's causing me not to go to the gym? Likely, because I believe something about a failure in the past, where I believe that I'm not worthy of the gym because I'm 60 pounds overweight and the people there are fit. I have so many beliefs that in spite of my knowledge, I can't do it, even if you give me the biggest reward. So until we address and understand the dominoes that come before the behavior,

that's blocking that behavior, which that's exactly what my therapist worked with me on to say, it's the behavior is a symptom. I mean, it's what we see, but there are so many things that are driving that before that are kind of making this, it's not a matter of willpower. It's just a matter of program. You hit a button, a trigger, and then that sequence begins.

And you have to reprogram. And in a previous episode, you know, I talked about a lengthy process of one way of doing that, right? Something I'll have my, the men in my program do is to focus on a desired belief, right? Something that's optimal. Like, for instance, I can experience sexual arousal and welcome it and be at peace with it. Right? So I have them.

Kind of repeat that a few times and focus on it. And then just notice what counter beliefs or resistance comes up to that. And some of the guys in my program, that's not a problem for us. We don't go that direction because they they're like, well, yeah, sex is fine. But most of the guys that I work with, they carry these burdened beliefs surrounding sexuality and the guys who don't, that'd be a different, they have other reasons they've been going to it. Right. And this is not playing into that.

So once you notice what comes up, then recognizing, working through it, understanding what these parts of you, why they're motivated, to think those different ways and engaging with them, like they're little individuals, getting underneath to the feelings of fear or the feelings of shame or grief that you carry, and engaging with all of that from an emotional standpoint and being with it for a while.

Jake Kastleman (01:20:04.673)

I have to feel through that.

happens for you personally when something, when that desire, some type of physiological thing shows up and you just breathe and pause and be with it.

So I actually had an experience. I shared this in a previous episode, but it was unexpected. I was doing like a hot cold kind of thing. So I've heard that heat mixed with cold and back and forth is really great for the nervous system. It helps you build resilience and the ability to stay with discomfort. And so I got in an extremely hot bath, know, hot tub style and

It was probably a little overdone, but I'm extreme sometimes. So as I got in it, I actually had a deeply overwhelming feeling against what I was going through emotionally that day and things. A arousal and craving came up in a very strong and intense way, unexpectedly. And so I said, okay, here's this. And I did what I teach.

Right? And it's never an easy practice, but I witnessed and I welcomed and I allowed, right? So not, it's not here to control me. It's actually just a feeling and a desire. And as I just welcomed it and focused on it internally and said, okay, here's all this feeling and this arousal and these cravings that are all coming up. I'm allowing it to come in. Like it's a, like it's someone who's come to talk with me, to share a message with me and sit down with me.

Jake Kastleman (01:21:44.8)

share your message, what are you saying? And there are some extreme things said, right? And so I actually speak them out loud and just, I'm just witnessing and I'm seeking to understand. And then there's another voice that comes up to me that's freaking out that I'm feeling any of these feelings of arousal. This is bad, you shouldn't feel this. my gosh, what if this takes us over? This could ruin us. This, Blah, blah, blah, on and on and things into.

Right? I've been a sober for 11 years. What if this over takes me and then that will ruin my career and that will lead to this and that and all the guys who depend on me and my family. And so I'm actually just speaking all that and I'm just recognizing all that. And I'm saying, hey, thanks for showing up for me, man. I know you really care about my life, this part of me, right? You really want me to live a life of integrity. And I appreciate that. And I can appreciate the arousal part just the same because it's saying, I want pleasure and escape.

and for you, want you to enjoy the moment and to be present. Those are some of the deeper desires of adventure and excitement, right? And as I engage with those, then I come down to things I'm going through in my current life, emotions that I'm carrying in my nervous system, Fears that I have about, you know, whatever's going on.

with work or with family or how am I showing up as a dad or a husband or a fight that my wife and I had, right? Whatever that is, you know, an argument that came up like, what are those things? And then engaging with all that and the kid inside me that feels all these messages about sexuality and I come to understand him and all the burdens he carries. And I moved through that for about 15 minutes.

And what always happens, if you're willing to engage with all that, you then come to that place of just deep spaciousness that the Buddhist refer to and this place of self, this place of spirit. And it's just love. I just, you're just present. I'm just present. And I just understand myself so much better and I've built a deeper relationship with myself. I'm not, and it's...

Jake Kastleman (01:23:55.426)

That's hard to describe in words, honestly, because it's a beautiful experience, you know?

I mean, I think almost all language like we use is metaphor at some level. Like one the metaphors that probably has seemed useful to me that it seems, because my experience is similar that way is to, first of all, being in a pool and holding a beach ball down is eventually futile. And the harder you push it down and try and hold it down, the more

power it gains. And eventually it shoots out sideways with a vengeance. So you like describing this experience of being with it is to stop pushing on the beach ball. You know, relax into it. Stop fighting it. Cause the war is actually at some point the war that you have is

your willpower against the program.

So it's the elephant and the rider.

Jake Kastleman (01:25:09.61)

or crime.

Well, our is much, much smaller than the program that's been developed. So it will always exhaust itself. It will lose that battle. So stop fighting. The other is like blowing bubbles. You blow bubbles outside, you have fun with it. And so much of the time we spend our lives running around trying to pop the bubbles instead of just let them fall. Let them be and they'll fall.

and they'll hit the ground and they'll dissipate.

Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, that brings you back to an experience that's a bit awkward to share, perhaps, and vulnerable, but I'm going to share it because I think it's meaningful. And that's, you know, for me, I carry a lot of burdens sexually, right? From the years of all the addiction.

and the beliefs of shame and fear surrounding sexuality. I've had to do so much work in cultivating different beliefs about my body, right? And about the human body as a whole, right? And when I look at myself in the mirror, when I'm naked in the mirror, what do I feel, right? I've had to work so much on that. you know, for me personally,

Jake Kastleman (01:26:43.028)

somewhat recently, you know, my wife and I were engaging sexually and afterwards, had, well, throughout, I had these emotions coming up of shame and of fear, right? The shame of, shouldn't feel these things and this is dangerous and this is bad. And then all these feelings of,

to be frank, the things throughout my teenage years and the ways that I used those abilities that didn't respect myself and it didn't respect other people.

And all that stuff started to hit me. And in the past, before I started practicing this mindfulness and this welcoming and this parts where this allowing, I would try to suppress that and stuff that down and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't want to feel any of this. Like I'm with my wife right now. This stuff should not come up. And I just let it, I just let it come up, right? And I was just there for these parts of me that are,

They're just trying to bring messages forward like, hey, there's so much stuff in here that's so screwed up and we really need you to see it. Not out of self-punishment, but actually to be able to heal and work through it. And so as all of that came up, a profound grief hit me as these memories came up and how it sounds strange and it's complex, but how this experience within marriage

was so good and so beautiful in comparison to just this depravity and this self-centered pleasure seeking and these relationships that were just so broken, right, with these different women. I just, the expansive chasm between these two experiences was so palpable for me at that moment. I just began to cry and

Jake Kastleman (01:28:42.126)

For a lot of people, they're just like, that's weird. You're like sitting next to your wife, like crying after sex. And yeah, it is weird. It is weird. And I welcomed that forward too. There's a part of me that felt like this is awkward. Stop being awkward. Right? So I'm to let that part in too. It's okay for me to, pardon me to say it's awkward. And I just said, you know, said, I'm sorry this is happening right now. Could you just, could you just hold my hand? I can't tell you in words what's going on. Right? And she did. She held my hand and I just cried.

And I just grieved, grief had to move through me for all the, again, the depravity and the ways that I just mistreated my body and these parts of me and engaged in this in ways that didn't honor me. And that's healing. Moving through that pain is healing. And just another layer was peeled back where I could just let go of that just a little more to feel more whole.

both sexually and as a person, right? And closer in my relationship to my wife.

Yeah, thanks for saying that.

Yeah, some people will probably hear it and they'll be like, that's weird. But hopefully there's others that it will be meaningful to.

Todd Smithson (01:29:56.884)

The thing that's interesting about

My time in attending 12-step meetings, it's very akin to yours and my conversations today, but also walking together. It's unique in that our humanity gets exposed and that itself is what brings us closer together. The object is not to get rid of our humanness.

It's to actually have it show up in a way that we actually learn how to care for that. There's no sense in which love makes any sense if something's perfectly lovable. Until it's actually tested, for instance, a plant growing outside. Like if you didn't have to do anything to make it grow, to contribute to its growth,

then you might be tempted to take credit for something that you had nothing to do with at all. But you also, like when it grows and it's not performing, it's not doing exactly how you hoped it would, it's so counterintuitive that we would never think that the answer to helping a bush that's not growing properly to hit it with a shovel.

You know, we wouldn't think that punishing it would be the way to help it grow, but we kind of do that to ourselves. We think that hating ourselves forward is, the most powerful way to do it. But it's, it's when that planet shows up that way, that's an opportunity to care for it. And you may have to understand it. I don't mean some weird way to talk to it, but you might have to do some research.

Todd Smithson (01:32:02.946)

You might have to look at its leaves or its branches, or you might have to do some soil type of analysis. Find out what's going on underneath the ground so that then you'll understand how to treat it. But if you just abandon it altogether and just say, you're worthless, then that's not learning to love at all. It's demanding that you love it. mean, like, and now it gets hard.

Because now love is work. It's not just standing back and letting all the good stuff happen with no effort at all.

So well said. Well said, Todd. Thanks for being here on the show, man. It's a privilege to have you. I think that this conversation will be very helpful for people. So thanks, man.

Yeah, I will leave one thing with you and you'll add stuff. But I think one of the things that repeatedly comes out to me is that relationship is the, it's the bread of life. It's to be in companionship and to seek intimacy. I, and what I mean by that is to know and be known. mean, it's the longing of the human spirit and

The misappropriation or misuse of sexuality is betraying that desire because it's not really about intimacy at all. But that being said, trust is the kind of link in relationships, but oftentimes we think of trust as kind of a hierarchical thing. We think of it as an authority frame as I trust you because you're an authority on a subject and so I'll just do what you tell me to do.

Todd Smithson (01:33:54.658)

but that's missing the underlying.

Todd Smithson (01:34:01.24)

part of trust, which is

rupture and repair. So you have little kids right now. I've been there. I don't anymore. But I learned this long ago when listening to an episode that has stuck with me. He said, if your child, if you do everything you can in your life to safeguard him from falling ever, and I mean physically, he never has a bobble, then he'll never fully trust you.

because he'll never know that you'll be there when he falls down. So full trust is not just about you preventing, creating safety. It's being there when he falls down and bumps his knee, hits his head to say, to console, to instruct, to give wisdom.

Telling a story of your full humanity is the development of trust. It takes trust to know that someone's gonna respond well with it. Trust is built in the rupture and then the repair. Without those things, we end up kind of in an abandoned, a fear of abandonment, an avoidant type of approach to life, because I never know. I mean, I have no idea, no reference point to say,

If I tell you this part about me or if I fall or I show you my humanity, I have no experience to tell me that you're going to pick me up well. In fact, I have a lot of messages that say that you won't.

Jake Kastleman (01:35:46.466)

very powerful. Yeah. And we need to do that for those around us and ourselves, you know? For sure. It's good. It's good, man. Thanks so much, Todd. Appreciate you coming on, brother. Yeah, love you. You too, Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor.

Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. If you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn, or my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome porn addiction.

and can find them at nomordesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.

Jake Kastleman (01:37:20.364)

Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,

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