Mindfulness Over Willpower: Ending Porn Addiction Through Self-Awareness and Compassion — A Buddhist Approach to Healing Addiction and Shame
- Jake Kastleman
- 2 days ago
- 50 min read
For years, I thought the answer to overcoming porn addiction was more discipline. More control. More willpower.
If I could just “white-knuckle” my way through the cravings, I’d finally be free. But all that approach ever gave me was exhaustion, frustration, and more shame when I inevitably slipped.
It wasn’t until I began studying mindfulness and internal parts work that I realized something powerful: recovery isn’t about controlling your mind — it’s about understanding it.
That’s what my guest Jeremy Lipkowitz and I explored together in this conversation. Jeremy’s story is extraordinary — he went from studying genetics at Duke University to becoming a Buddhist monk in Thailand, then founding The Unhooked Academy, where he helps men recover from porn addiction through mindfulness and self-compassion.
What I love about Jeremy’s journey is that it bridges science and spirituality in a way that just makes sense. There’s no moral shaming, no religious guilt, no false promises of “just try harder.” Instead, it’s about awareness, emotional mastery, and reconnecting to the truth of who you are beneath your compulsions.
The Science of Suffering: Why Porn Addiction Makes You Miserable
Porn addiction doesn’t just hijack your attention — it rewires your brain.
When we watch porn, our brains release intense spikes of dopamine — the same chemical that drives all motivation and craving. Over time, the brain adapts to this unnatural flood by desensitizing dopamine receptors. That means ordinary, healthy pleasures — real intimacy, meaningful work, nature, even a good meal — start to feel dull.
You’re left needing more stimulation to feel the same pleasure.
As Jeremy put it, porn hardwires you to always be looking for something better just around the corner.
And that’s why porn addiction leads to misery — not because sex is wrong, but because the brain learns to crave endless novelty. You could have a loving partner, a great life, and still feel empty.
From a Buddhist perspective, that emptiness is the direct result of craving — the grasping mind that’s always chasing pleasure and fleeing pain. When craving drives your life, contentment becomes impossible.
Mindfulness vs. Willpower: The True Path to Freedom
Willpower might help you quit porn for a while — but it won’t heal the root of addiction.
Mindfulness, however, goes deeper. It trains you to observe your urges and emotions without judging or obeying them.
That’s where the real transformation begins.
When you notice a craving arise — that urge to reach for stimulation or escape — mindfulness teaches you to pause, breathe, and ask:
“What am I actually needing right now?”
Maybe it’s comfort. Maybe it’s rest. Maybe it’s connection.
The problem isn’t the desire itself — it’s the unconscious reaction to it. Mindfulness helps you see the difference between desire and craving:
Healthy desire moves you toward growth, connection, purpose.
Craving grasps from fear and emptiness, saying, “I need this now or I can’t be okay.”
The key isn’t to suppress desire — it’s to purify intention. When your intention is rooted in love, presence, and service, desire becomes sacred. When it’s driven by fear or self-hate, it becomes suffering.
The Role of Shame in Porn Addiction
If craving fuels addiction, shame keeps it alive.
Shame says, “I’m broken. I’m disgusting. I’m the only one who struggles like this.”
That belief drives isolation — and isolation is where addiction thrives.
As Jeremy said, one of the most healing truths he discovered is that shame isn’t always the enemy. In Buddhist psychology, shame is actually called one of the guardians of the world. Healthy shame is the natural remorse that says, “That choice was unskillful — I can do better next time.”
It’s only when shame becomes toxic — when we confuse our behavior with our identity — that it becomes poison.
Toxic shame: “I watched porn, therefore I’m a bad person.”
Healthy shame: “I watched porn, that choice doesn’t align with my values, and I can grow from it.”
The goal isn’t to never feel shame — it’s to relate to it differently. Instead of letting shame isolate you, let it humble you, open you, and reconnect you with
compassion.
Emotional Awareness: Turning Toward Pain, Not Away
One of the biggest insights I’ve gained in my own recovery is this:
Every craving is a messenger.
When I feel that pull to escape, there’s always a deeper emotion underneath — loneliness, fear, boredom, or stress.
I remember a moment after my second child was born. My wife and newborn were in the hospital, and I went home for a night to rest. Alone in my bed, the cravings came rushing in.
My old pattern would have been to fight them or distract myself. But instead, I turned toward the feeling. I got curious.
I realized the craving wasn’t really about sex — it was about loneliness. I missed my wife, my clients, my routines. I missed connection.
So instead of suppressing or indulging the urge, I felt it. I held that part of me — the lonely, anxious part — with compassion.
And that’s where the craving lost its power.
As Jeremy said beautifully, mindfulness helps us “make peace with all the parts of ourselves.” We stop fighting against the inner world and start befriending it.
That’s when recovery stops being a battle and becomes a relationship — with yourself.
The Hungry Ghost: Understanding the Addiction Mindset
In Buddhist psychology, there’s a metaphor called The Realm of the Hungry Ghosts.
These ghost-like beings have huge, empty stomachs and tiny pinhole mouths. They wander endlessly, starving, but can never eat enough to be satisfied.
That’s addiction.
Whether it’s porn, success, validation, or even “spiritual achievement,” the pattern is the same: I’ll be happy when...
When I finally quit porn. When I make more money. When I’m good enough.
But each time we reach one goal, the mind just moves the finish line. That’s the hungry ghost — never full, never content.
The way out isn’t more self-control — it’s learning to feel full now.
That’s the real work of recovery: reconditioning your brain for contentment and gratitude.
Simple mindfulness practices — slowing down when you eat, breathing deeply, walking in nature, savoring your relationships — teach your nervous system what it feels like to be satisfied.
Mindfulness, Neuroplasticity, and the Healing Brain
Here’s the beautiful part: the brain can change.
Every time you pause instead of reacting to a craving, you’re rewiring your brain through neuroplasticity.
You’re strengthening neural pathways of patience, awareness, and emotional regulation — and weakening the circuits of impulsivity and escape.
In time, mindfulness becomes your default state.
Craving arises → You breathe.
Shame arises → You respond with compassion.
Loneliness arises → You reach for connection.
This is how mindfulness transforms the brain — not through suppression, but through gentle repetition of awareness.
Each mindful moment is like planting a new seed in the soil of your mind. Over time, those seeds grow into peace, purpose, and self-trust.
The Power of Connection and Accountability
One of the most powerful ways to strengthen recovery is through community.
Addiction thrives in secrecy. Healing happens in connection.
Jeremy said something I deeply resonate with: “When men share honestly in a safe, non-judgmental space, it’s liberating.”
That’s why I built my own recovery community — because no man heals in isolation.
When you know other men will be checking in with you, you’re more accountable. And beyond that, you experience something you’ve been craving all along — brotherhood.
If shame isolates, vulnerability reconnects.
And true masculinity isn’t about hiding your wounds — it’s about the courage to reveal them and lead others toward healing.
Beyond Sobriety: Building a Life Too Full for Addiction
Sobriety is not the same as recovery.
You can quit porn and still feel miserable if your life lacks purpose, connection, and joy.
In the 1970s, scientists discovered this through what’s now called the Rat Park Experiment. Rats addicted to morphine in isolated cages kept drinking the drugged water until they died. But when the same rats were moved into an enriched environment — full of play, sunlight, and other rats to connect with — they stopped using the drug almost entirely.
Why? Because they had something better to live for.
We’re no different.
When you fill your life with purpose, movement, play, community, and spiritual growth, your brain no longer needs artificial highs.
Porn loses its appeal because your life becomes inherently meaningful.
The End of the Inner War
At the heart of this work is peace — not perfection.
Porn addiction recovery isn’t about conquering lust or becoming “pure.” It’s about ending the war inside yourself.
When you start meeting your inner parts — your loneliness, your cravings, your shame — with compassion instead of contempt, everything changes.
You stop living as an enemy of your own mind and start leading yourself with love and awareness.
That’s what mindfulness really is: the art of being with what is — with courage, curiosity, and care.
And that’s what this journey is all about.
Because in the end, you don’t overcome addiction by hating the part of you that’s addicted. You overcome it by loving that part so completely, it no longer needs to escape.
Key Takeaways for Daily Practice
Pause before reacting. Each urge is a messenger. Listen before you act.
Ask yourself, “What do I truly need right now?” Cravings often point to unmet needs for rest, connection, or care.
Be compassionate toward your shame. Healthy remorse guides growth — toxic shame fuels relapse.
Strengthen your environment. Move, connect, play, and serve others. Build a life that nourishes your soul.
Practice mindfulness daily. Meditation, breathwork, or mindful journaling will rewire your brain for calm and clarity.
You can’t “think” your way out of porn addiction
You can’t “think” your way out of porn addiction. You have to feel your way through it — consciously, courageously, and compassionately.
Recovery isn’t about avoiding pleasure; it’s about learning to experience it deeply, without losing yourself to it.
That’s what I mean when I say: Mindfulness over willpower.
Because it’s not force that sets you free — it’s awareness.
God bless and much love, my friend.
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Full Transcription of Episode 117: Mindfulness Over Willpower: Ending Porn Addiction Through Self-Awareness and Compassion — A Buddhist Approach to Healing Addiction and Shame
Jake Kastleman (00:00.363)
you
There's this one realm called the realm of the hungry ghosts. And it's this realm of these ghost-like creatures that wander around and they're these... They have these massive bellies and tiny pinhole mouths. So their mouths are so small that they wander this existence and they can never eat enough to satisfy their massive hunger. It so much captures what addiction feels like. Always feeling hungry for more and never able to satisfy your hunger.
Toxic shame says you're a bad person. You're not worthy of love. If people knew who you really were, they would kick you out of the tribe and shun you. That's toxic shame. Healthy shame is I know I'm a good person and this thing was not in alignment with my values, my integrity, my character, but it still was an unskillful action and I'm ashamed of that.
Jake Kastleman (01:04.033)
how shame can feel like quicksand. The harder you fight it, the deeper it seems to pull you down. For so many men struggling with pornography or other compulsive behaviors, shame becomes the hidden engine that keeps the cycle alive. The quiet voice saying, you're broken, you'll never change. But what if shame isn't the enemy? What if, when understood correctly, shame can actually be one of your greatest
teachers, a force that protects what's good and calls you back to what's important to you. Today's guest knows that truth firsthand. Jeremy Lipkowitz is an ICF certified executive coach, a meditation teacher, and the founder of Unhooked Academy, where he helps high achieving men break free from destructive patterns like porn and sex addiction. Before he was a coach,
Jeremy was a geneticist at Duke University, deep in doctoral research in genetics and genomics. But after overcoming his own battles with porn addiction and depression through mindfulness and meditation, he left academia to follow a different calling, one that led him to spend time as a Buddhist monk in Asia, dedicating his life to the study of the mind and the science of happiness. Today,
Jeremy combines scientific insight, meditation, and behavioral psychology to help men rewire their habits and reclaim their freedom from within. And in this conversation, he shares profound wisdom on topics that every man in recovery needs to hear. Why shame plays such a powerful role in addiction and how to recognize when it's working against you versus when it's working for you. The difference
between toxic shame and healthy pro-social shame, the kind that actually guards our sobriety and keeps us aligned with our values. The realm of hungry ghosts, a haunting but liberating Buddhist metaphor for the endless cravings of addiction and what it takes to finally break free. This is a conversation about reclaiming your humanity, learning to see yourself not as broken or bad, but as a man who's learning
Jake Kastleman (03:28.588)
to meet his pain with courage and awareness. So, if you've ever felt trapped by shame or stuck in the same patterns, no matter how hard you try, this episode is for you. You're about to hear how freedom starts, not by fighting your darkness, but by understanding and embracing it. Before we dive in, a reminder to follow this podcast, hit the notification button and shoot me a rating so we can uptick that algorithm
and grow the No More Desires show together. With that, we'll dive in to my powerful conversation with Jeremy Lipkowitz.
Jake Kastleman (04:11.852)
Jeremy, welcome, man. It's awesome to have you here. So it's fitting that you're living in Thailand because you do have this unique background from studying genetics at Duke University to becoming a Buddhist monk and now leading the Unhooked Academy, working with men who struggle with pornography and sex addiction. So what, I'd love to know more about that background.
And if you can tell people just what that was like, what your journey's been like and what brought you here. Yeah, you know, I've always had a passion for the sciences, for research. And I was on track and I was working my way up, working on my PhD at Duke and looking to become a research professor. So I always just loved the sciences and particularly studying things like biology and genetics and evolution.
and at some point, you know, in the middle of my, my life, started to realize that I was actually addicted to porn. You know, I started noticing that around the end of undergrad. I started recognizing some of the issues with that in my life. and that sent me down this rabbit hole of getting into the topic of, you know, what happiness is and what's going on in my mind and how to actually have deeper.
happiness and fulfillment in my life. So that sent me down this rabbit hole of looking into some of these topics, these deeper questions. And that got me into Buddhist philosophy and ended up traveling to India and started going on these meditation retreats. You know, I could go down any of these rabbit holes that you like, but it really became a big part of my life. And so much so that I ended up leaving my career as an academic and committed my life fully to teaching meditation.
And so I did that for a few years teaching meditation full time and eventually what was going on is I was leading these retreats in Thailand, these silent meditation retreats and people were coming on the retreats and more and more people were coming and wanting to work with me one-on-one and wanting to get kind of support in their life. And I started recognizing that a lot of people, particularly the men who were coming to me, a lot of them were struggling with porn addiction and
Jake Kastleman (06:39.625)
kind of came full circle because it was something that I had struggled with. I knew it very well and it was what got me into meditation. So I started doing more and more work in this topic of helping guys with porn addiction and recovery and just teaching them what I had done in order to break free. And eventually I just realized that this is a huge issue around the world and I could make a big difference if I just focused entirely on this. So that's when around 2018 I started focusing.
specifically on porn addiction as my main thing. I think that there's a lot behind that story of you actually choosing to leave your career in academia and go out to commit yourself to this life and to teaching meditation and, you know, to become a Buddhist monk. What was it like making that decision?
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. It really wasn't a difficult decision for me to leave my PhD. It kind of sounds like it was. I was even four and a half years into my PhD program, so I was pretty far along in my PhD. But when I made the decision to leave, it was actually such a simple decision because what happened is by the time I got to grad school, I had already started my own journey with meditation.
You know, so I had already discovered it and it really changed my life. And so when I got to grad school, I started teaching meditation just for fun. You know, I just started offering kind of a morning meditation on campus for anyone who was interested. Mostly as a way just to keep myself accountable, you know, to make sure that I was actually doing the meditation. Yeah. And I was doing that for about four years, you know, while I was also doing my graduate research. And I just realized how much more passionate I was about
teaching people about understanding their mind, know, really understanding how to practice mindfulness and meditation in a way that was very secular and non-religious. Because that was important to me. You know, I'd always kind of avoided Buddhism because I thought it was just a religion I had to get into. But when I realized that mindfulness wasn't a religious thing, it was really just a way of understanding your mind and training your mind and it could be very secular. That's when it really opened up to me.
Jake Kastleman (09:01.703)
And so I started teaching other people how to meditate in this very secular way. And I just realized I was way more passionate about teaching people about understanding their mind and understanding what leads to happiness. And I was less interested in the research I was doing. And so at some point I just realized my life, you know, I'd be so much more fulfilled in my life if this is what I was doing for a living. And so I...
I left and haven't really had any regrets this entire time since leaving. The only regret, it would be nice to have that PhD at the end of my name, but it wasn't worth it for me to stick around because I didn't want to do science after that. I wanted to just teach people about their minds and understanding suffering and understanding happiness. That's very cool. It's kind of that moment of singularity perhaps.
where something just intuitively makes sense. It's like, this is where I'm at. so, pursuing that new life. So, can you talk more about that kind of turning point that led you to leave the world of science and step into the world of mindfulness and recovery work? And what that, you you're working with these men that you see are struggling with pornography addiction.
and they're coming to you for meditation, right? You keep seeing over and over again, porn addiction, porn addiction. Did you make the connection at that point in your own recovery and for these individuals of the connection between kind of happiness and the mind and how people were prone towards pornography addiction? Did that begin to coalesce over time? Was it clear in the beginning? What was that like?
Yeah, it was interesting. It was very clear from the beginning, connection between porn addiction, recovery and mindfulness and kind of meditation and happiness. The reason it was clear from the beginning. And when I say the beginning, mean, you know, years before I even started working with anyone, it was clear. And the reason it was clear is because it was my origin. You know, what really
Jake Kastleman (11:21.07)
The turning point in my life was when I really saw the connection between my porn usage and my happiness. And I started to see that mindfulness and meditation was the way that I start to climb out of the darkness that I had gotten myself into. So for me, it was this totally life-changing experience when I recognized my addiction to porn and realized that
I had been hardwiring in suffering and dissatisfaction. know, understanding neuroplasticity was a big part of my own recovery. And I recovered before I even knew recovery was a thing. You know, I didn't know about 12-step groups or recovery circles or the world of addiction. I just saw that I had this habit, this compulsive habit and behavior that was causing a lot of havoc in my life.
And I started to recognize, this is causing a lot of suffering and I need to find a way out of this. And so for me, my recovery was through meditation. It wasn't through traditional recovery. So for me, it was a very clear thing of understanding, porn addiction, you know, leads to suffering, to lying, to deceit, to unhappiness. And mindfulness is simply a tool you can use to break free from that addiction.
Can you talk more about from the secular perspective, why pornography addiction or maybe pornography in general, I'd love to hear that from you, causes unhappiness? Yeah, you know, and it's something I know that you wanted to talk about, like kind of interesting that from the secular perspective, like I'm not coming at this from a religious perspective. It's not kind of a moralistic, you know, porn is evil kind of thing. mean, porn...
The porn industry can definitely be evil. But for me personally, you know, I have nothing philosophically against watching other people have sex. But you know, in terms of the ramifications of that action on your life and on your relationships and on your wellbeing, there are so many ways that it causes harm to yourself and to others. And so for me in my life, you know, the main thing that I started noticing was just how much it was.
Jake Kastleman (13:46.06)
ruining my ability to be satisfied in my relationships. It was ruining my ability to find joy or pleasure or satisfaction in anything outside of relationships and sex. And it's because of the ways that porn again hardwires your brain to be searching for something novel, something new, hardwires you to be looking for something better just around the corner rather than
cultivating contentment or appreciation for what you already have. So that was one of the big ways, just the ways in my life that I noticed it was really impacting my ability to be content, to have gratitude, to appreciate what I already had. And I realized that if I kept living my life that way, it didn't matter how much I acquired or all that. I could have the most
attractive wife in the world and the most money in my bank account and I would never be happy because I was conditioned to always wanting more, to always wanting something else. And so it was a very real, you know, that was that connection between happiness and porn as I realized this is leading me to never be happy if I keep going down this path. I'll always be wandering, looking for something more and never
being able to satisfy my craving. Cause in some ways it really comes back to just these principles that we've been taught for a long, long time. I mean, when we go to Buddhism, right? The Buddha taught about craving was one of his main teachings and where craving leads to suffering and unhappiness. And so anything that I
indulge in profusely or my I'm craving is going to cause unhappiness. I mean, would you see pornography as just yet another form of that or how do you see it? Yeah. And I think that it also brings up a good point that it's not just pornography. know, it's like it's anything that we crave and we have this
Jake Kastleman (15:58.749)
lustful desire after, if I need to have this thing, that's what causes suffering. So porn is one particular outlet. But men also struggle with, you know, all kinds of other forms of craving, just seeking validation from women who are not our partner, you know, seeking more money, seeking more success and craving it. And there's also an important distinction between desire or aspiration and craving.
You can have healthy desires to say, yeah, I do desire to have an amazing relationship. I do desire to have financial security so I can support my family. I do have these aspirations of having a beautiful home and a peaceful life. It's the craving that says, I need to have this thing and I need it now. And if I don't get it, then I can't be happy. It's this kind of tunnel vision, hyper-focused.
a graspy feeling, that's what craving is. And there is a big difference between craving and desire. You know, a lot of people, there's a big misconception that, Buddhism is about having no desires and you just have to become kind of a puddle, like a lump of clay that sits there and doesn't do anything. And it's not true. It's like you can have, you know, desires for fitness in the gym and financial goals and, you know, all kinds of things. But it's that craving.
that says I need to have this and I'll do anything, I'll lie and cheat and steal in order to get it. That's where it causes suffering. And what do you feel like makes the difference between me having a desire for things that kind of bring me enjoyment or satisfaction versus I'm craving this? What makes that separation?
Yeah, I mean, and that's, it really is down to kind of what's the flavor of the mind, really understanding what's the intention behind the desire. And that's where mindfulness is such an important tool is learning how to observe what's actually going on inside your mind. Learning how to observe what's my intention behind this. You know, do I have this desire because it's, I'm trying to fill some void or I'm trying to run away from some
Jake Kastleman (18:20.095)
some pain of loneliness or fear or insecurity? Or do I have this desire for wholesome reasons? Because I want to support my family, because I want to be of service in the world and you know, of service in my community. So really understanding, you know, it's interesting the Buddha had this quote, he said, everything rests on the tip of intention. And it's, what it means is like looking at
your intention behind your actions and behind your desires is really important. You can have the same outward action, but the intention behind it actually makes a big difference. If your intention behind it is to, you know, to just be greedy and, you know, fill some void and run away from your emotions, it's going to have a very different outcome than if you're doing something because your intention is to make the world a better place. Yeah.
And that takes awareness, you know, starting with awareness. Yeah. There's so much more that we could talk about on that. That's for sure. How did your experience, Jeremy, as a monk spending so much time in silence, self-observation, shape your understanding of human suffering and of addiction? And if you could kind of tell people how long you spent doing that, I think it was a few years practicing as a monk.
Am I totally off? No, yeah, a little bit off. so when I first started getting into Buddhism, you know, I traveled to India and, had these really incredible insights into my own life. And a big part of that was going on these things called silent meditation retreats. Sometimes they're called the Vipassana retreats. in the West we call them insight meditation retreats, but essentially it's you go.
off to a retreat center and for somewhere around 10 days, know, sometimes they're a little shorter, sometimes a little longer, but imagine 10 days of no talking, no reading, no writing, no journaling, no electronics, no internet or email. So you're removing all your distractions and you're really just practicing mindfulness 24-7.
Jake Kastleman (20:38.579)
the entire time that you're not talking to the other participants. You're not even supposed to make eye contact with the other participants. You're really just in your own space, being in your body and in your present moment. So when you're doing a sitting meditation, you're practicing the meditation. When you're doing the walking meditation, you're walking. When you're eating, you're really being mindful about reaching for your utensil and putting the food in your mouth and tasting the food. So you're present.
24 seven and it is as you can imagine incredibly difficult. I it is not a fun experience. It's not like, this is so happy and what a relaxing vacation. You know, it's not like sitting on a beach drinking a, you know, a margarita. It's, it's hard work because you have nothing to distract you from your own mind and from your own craziness. You know, you realize just how crazy the mind is when you do these things.
I was going to say, I feel like one part of me is definitely like, I feel like I'd lose my mind. I'd go crazy trying to do that. And then another part was like, well, I don't know, maybe it'd be kind of nice. And I feel like in reality, would be incredibly challenging and just agony in some ways. Well, you know, it's so funny. People say this, I would go crazy if I did that. And the kind of the hilarity behind it is that
What's real is that you're already crazy. And when you go on a retreat, you just finally have an opportunity to see how crazy you are because you're not distracting yourself. And that's the point of it is it's like you, remove all the distractions. So you actually can see the way your mind is functioning already on a regular basis. You can see the way you get hooked by these things. You can see the way you start to fantasize about things you don't have or, I want this. I want to.
If only I had a better cushion to sit on or if only I had this sexual encounter with this person, then I could be happy. Or if only this person sitting next to me wasn't breathing so loudly, then I could be at peace and then I could meditate. And your mind goes crazy, but it's already crazy. And so the retreat in some ways is there to shine a light on how your mind is out of control. And then it gives you the tools to start to work with the mind.
Jake Kastleman (23:03.378)
And this is, you know, through neuroplasticity, we know that we can actually train the mind and cultivate different habits and behaviors. So these retreats, you know, are an opportunity to say, okay, let me cultivate patience. Let me cultivate gratitude. Let me cultivate compassion for the person sitting next to me who's suffering, you know? And so these retreats became just incredibly important for me in my life. And I started going on a retreat.
more than a little more than once a year. like once every seven or eight months, I would go on another silent retreat. And I did that for, you know, for the past 15 years, really, I've been going on these retreats on a regular basis. And so that, you know, year thing that you mentioned, it's, you know, I've spent quite a long time in silent retreat, if you add up all the days. in terms of the monastic experience, it was more that
I had decided to go on a month-long silent retreat in Myanmar and on this month-long silent retreat, I had the opportunity to ordain as a monk for the duration of the retreat. And in kind of Southeast Asia, in kind of the Buddhism from those parts, temporary ordinations are actually very common. In many ways, it's seen as like a rite of passage for young men to do a temporary ordination.
So you're not ordaining as a monk for the rest of your life. You're ordaining for a month or two months and having that experience and kind of making that merit, but you're not saying, okay, I'm going to be a monk for the rest of my life. So I am, this is a common misconception. I am not currently a monk, you know, for anyone out there who's listening. I am a lay person as we say. Jeremy, I'm so disappointed.
I'm just kidding. No, and it actually shows, you know, I said this in our first conversation together where I was like, you probably get this a lot, but you have the tone and kind of the approach, the presence of someone who's done a lot of meditation and practiced a lot of mindfulness. so, yeah, that training shows. So I wanted to ask, you know, just kind of about this
Jake Kastleman (25:25.712)
this mission that you're on at this point, you know, having gone from science to teaching mindfulness to then creating the unhooked academy, right? And now all the men all over the world, you're helping with pornography addiction. What makes your approach to recovery distinct? Do you feel like, and really helps people the most? Yeah.
You know, there are things that are coming to my mind about what I could say, make it distinct. And I'm also fully aware that there's many other wonderful people in this recovery world that are doing some of these things as well. And so it's, I don't want to say, mine is the only program, you know, that does this and we have this special technology. It's not that way. I would say though, some of the things that, you know, make my program
You know, somewhat unique. One is that focus on mindfulness and meditation and really focusing on the mind and cultivating the mind through meditation. So that's one thing. Another is kind of the secular approach. You know, that I personally, I'm not religious and I think there are a lot of men out there who, you know, in my community, we do have, there are people who are religious and non-religious, but it's nice to maybe have an approach to recovery that isn't necessarily faith-based.
that is more based in kind of secular mindfulness practices. So that's another big component of my approach is that it's not faith-based, it's secular. And related to that, and probably most importantly, is that it's a shame-free, non-judgmental space. There's no shame around not being perfect and having watched porn. It doesn't make you a sinner, it doesn't make you a bad person.
It's a habit that you developed, you know, in part because there's a big porn industry out there trying to hijack your attention and you got hooked on it and you know, you're not a bad person. And so that shame free approach, I think is something that's really important in the work that I do. And for a lot of the guys who come to my communities, they feel like it's a safe space. They feel like they're not being judged. They feel like they can show up as they are, even if they're not having a perfect week and
Jake Kastleman (27:49.902)
If they say, I had a slip this week, that's okay. You you're not shamed or shunned or said, you know, you're living in sin. It's just, okay, hey, you made a poor choice, you know, an unskillful decision. We do that all the time as humans. Let's encourage each other and support each other and hold each other accountable to make better decisions. So for me, that shame-free approach is really important in my recovery.
personally, as well as the guys who come to my community. Well, Jeremy, I thought that shaming and shunning were like the two best tools for recovery. So was so surprised by this. of, mean, and that's, yeah, it's like, there are so many, like, I know you as well. It's like, you don't, you know, you're not using shame out there. I mean, that being said, actually, I'll just say a little side note, probably one of the things that I do believe that,
is a little bit counter-cultural in terms of kind of the liberal background I have is that I actually do think there's healthy shame. You know, I think there's pro-social shame and there's a space for actually celebrating shame and remorse when it's done in a healthy way. Because it actually, it's funny, in Buddhist philosophy, shame is known as one of the two guardians of the world. It's actually seen as this really protective force.
that says, hey, you know, this thing you did was unskillful and the ickiness that you feel around that is actually a protector. It's what protects you from causing harm again in the future. And so actually we need to celebrate that kind of shame, the kind of shame that feels bad for when we've done something unskillful and says, oof, you know, I feel icky because I caused harm to someone or I caused harm to myself or I lied. I don't want to do that again.
So that's the beautiful side of Shane, if you will. I think it's fantastic. And I think...
Jake Kastleman (29:55.884)
You know, and this is one of the things that we're gonna really focus on now that I wanna shift to. So it's good that you mentioned it. Shame. I think that it can be a massive buzzword these days, especially, you know, it's toxic. We shouldn't feel it. Just get rid of shame. Don't give it air to breathe at all, right?
I have found that that approach does not work. It's the opposite of helpful. I wondered if,
When it comes to shame though, right? It is one of the greatest drivers of addiction. So let's briefly talk about that kind of in your view of why does shame play such a powerful role? And I talk about it consistently on the podcast, but for those who maybe haven't heard it before or aren't familiar, why does it play such a powerful role in addiction? How is it connected to something like pornography addiction? Yeah, it's such a great question. I mean,
Because it almost feels like this paradox, like, okay, know, shame is one of the things that keeps us locked in addiction. And, but also it's like, if we let go of shame completely, so where's the balance? And for me, it's important to start with definitions and really understand what we're talking about. And this is where I like to just delineate between what I call toxic shame versus healthy shame. Because if you don't understand the difference there, it's going to be very hard to talk about the nuances.
Some people like to say, well, there is no such thing as healthy shame. What it is is guilt and okay, it's semantics. Like if you want to call it guilt, fine. For me, guilt doesn't quite feel right. know, shame actually is the thing that we're talking about is this feeling of I'm ashamed of my behavior and that can be healthy. So the thing that differentiates healthy shame versus toxic shame. Toxic shame is this feeling that
Jake Kastleman (32:03.926)
Yeah, I've done some bad thing and I'm ashamed of it and therefore I am fundamentally broken. There is something wrong with me as a person. That's when it starts to lean into that toxic type of shame. Healthy shame is this action I did was unskillful. I'm ashamed of that action and I know that I'm worthy of love and worthy of respect. You know, fundamentally that it's not who I am and this was
was just an unskillful decision that I wish I hadn't done. And so, you know, it's kind of like the fundamental layer that's important there is the toxic shame says you're a bad person. You're not worthy of love. If people knew who you really were, they would kick you out of the tribe and shun you. That's toxic shame. Healthy shame is I know I'm a good person and this thing was not in alignment with my values, my integrity, my character.
but it still was an unskillful action and I'm ashamed of that. That's kind of healthy shame. The reason that this is so important, getting back to your question of why does shame keep us stuck in addiction, so why does toxic shame keep us stuck in addiction is that when you allow toxic fame to be at the forefront of your mind, when you allow this feeling of I'm broken and if people knew the truth about me, they would hate me or kick me out of the tribe or call the police or whatever it is.
It prevents you from seeking help. It makes you want to isolate and run away and be by yourself and have nobody see who you actually are. And that's what exacerbates addiction. It's the isolation, it's the feeling of I can't be seen as I am, I can't be vulnerable because if I'm vulnerable, then people will know the truth about me. And so that's what exacerbates addiction is this isolation.
running away and feeling like you can't be who you are. The flip side of that, you know, as we talked about earlier is when you can, when you're in a safe space and you know that you can be vulnerable and talk about the things you're ashamed of, that's what heals addiction. You know, so many times like these, the community I run, I'm sure the community you run as well, it's like when you see these guys coming together in community and being in a safe space where they can talk about
Jake Kastleman (34:27.564)
something that they're so ashamed of for the first time in their life, is this huge weight off their shoulders. I mean, it's such a healing, liberating thing to be able to be in a group of men and to feel safe enough to say, I'm struggling with this and I acted out yesterday and I'm not proud of it. And you just get looks of compassion around the room. I mean, that is the most liberating thing.
And it really takes me back to vulnerability, which is a requirement for connection, for true empathy and human connection. And, Vulnerous, I think it's Vulnerous is the root word of vulnerability means, wound, right? So in other words, to be vulnerable, to connect, I need to be woundable. And too many of us have had experiences in life where we
do bring forward a painful emotion that's difficult and it's met either with judgment or someone seeking to fix it, control it, oh, you don't need to feel that, or you should feel more like this, or why don't you do this about it? Or I will say on the flip side, people enabling it or really indulging in it of like, oh yeah, you should feel that way, it's so bad and blah, blah, and when really,
If we can just be met with the openness, like you're talking about with mindfulness of just, hey, tell me about that. Tell me about what you're going through. Whatever the emotion is, hey, I felt that way too. I get that. And let's talk about it. I'm here to listen. That then, it leads to healing. It leads to connection. And that's very, very powerful.
You know, one of the things that I think of with this, Jeremy, is I wonder what your opinion is on this. think a place that we really go wrong in Western, maybe particularly Western psychology, culture, is this idea that there are negative and positive emotions, bad and good emotions, where
Jake Kastleman (36:52.003)
I teach my clients there are painful and joyful emotions, pleasant and unpleasant emotions, and welcoming them all in to listen and to feel with these parts of us that carry these emotions, to be with the mind. I found that to be very powerful for myself, very powerful for clients, especially for something like shame, right? Do you think is one of the things that gives shame so much power is
how we are not taught nor do we practice really being present with it for a while and giving it space to be there and for us to be able to understand what's behind this for me and being with it. Would you say that that is one of the core differences between it driving addiction versus helping us being pro-social or a healthy kind of shame? Yeah, well, I think you kind of nailed it.
when you made that distinction between okay, bad versus good emotions versus pleasant and unpleasant emotions. You know, I think it's not just shame. It's all of these unpleasant emotions that people don't know how to be with that drive addiction. It's not just shame. mean, shame is one of the biggest because it's so painful and again, it causes us to isolate. But all of these quote unquote, know, unpleasant emotions
that people just think, this is bad. I need to get rid of it. I need to not feel this way. know, loneliness as an example, we'll think, I don't like this, this is unpleasant. Let me numb out. Let me get some artificial dopamine to feel, to make this loneliness go away. Boredom is another one. it's like boredom is an unpleasant emotion. People don't know how to be with it. And so they run away from it. So all of these
unpleasant emotions that people don't know how to be with. As you say, if you can just let it pass through, if you can welcome it in and be with it, you know, loses its power of being a driving force of addiction.
Jake Kastleman (39:03.161)
I love the work I get to do as a one-on-one porn addiction recovery coach with men across the world. My clients feel seen and heard in that they are receiving the tailored help they need with clear, structured exercises and tools to get sober long term. I wanted to share a couple of the stories from these men. The first story is from my client John. He said, I spent many years in denial about my problem, blind to how my actions and behavior
myself and those around me. I had tried traditional therapists in the past but none provided the solutions or tools I needed to overcome my addiction on a day-to-day basis. Jake however directly relates to what I'm going through and it gave me comfort to know that I am not alone in my struggles and that I can overcome my addiction. He has given me the tools and support I needed to get through some of the most difficult times of my life.
It has truly been life changing. I have been sober seven months now. I have strengthened my relationships with my spouse, children and friends. And I am more present with those around me, more mindful of my own emotions and I'm beginning to take control of my life. The second story is from my client, Chris, who said, I found out about Jake through his podcast and was intrigued. The experience working with him has been great to date.
I've worked with many therapists and coaches over the years. Jake stands out partly because he cares so deeply and is so eager to help. He sees my problems and is almost as excited as I am to solve them. I hear him furiously typing notes on his keyboard when we're talking and I hear, am deeply invested in your success in every keystroke. I love his enthusiasm to continually find new ways to help his clients. I'm a big fan of Jake.
If you or your loved one are struggling with the incredible challenge of porn addiction, and it is getting in the way of your love, your success, your motivation, and your joy, then apply for my one-on-one intensive porn addiction recovery program at nomordesire.com. A structured program with personalized help.
Jake Kastleman (41:27.472)
And what's interesting is it's actually, not just the pleasant and unpleasant. It's not just the unpleasant ones that people run away from. It's also the pleasant emotions that people don't know how to be with without grasping after it. You know, it's like, Ooh, this, this feels pleasurable. Ooh, I need to, I need to have more of this. I need three cookies instead of two. Ooh, that picture I saw on, on the screen feels good. Ooh, I need to go search for some more pictures on the screen. And so.
It's both the pleasant emotion that people don't know how to be with without grasping after it, and it's the unpleasant emotion that people don't know how to be with without pushing it away. And this is the fundamentals of what Buddhist philosophy is about, is understanding that push and pull from pleasant and unpleasant sensations and that liberation from that kind of
hamster wheel of always running after what's pleasant or running away from what's unpleasant is through the practice of what we call equanimity. So equanimity is a really big component of the meditation training that we do in my program. it's what equanimity is, it's not a common word we use a lot in Western society. Equanimity is this quality of mind that is non-reactive.
to what's happening that is able to be with something unpleasant without running away and that is able to be with something pleasant without feeling you need to grasp after it. So it's this grounded, centered, stable quality of mind that is able to be with what's happening. And that's a very important quality to have because otherwise we're just on this incessant running and chasing away.
or kind of running away from what's unpleasant and chasing what's pleasant. So, you know, that's one other thing to say this like dichotomy of good emotions versus bad emotions.
Jake Kastleman (43:31.754)
And it is important to just say, okay, let me learn how to welcome all of these emotions and make space for it. That being said, there is a kind of a place to distinguish between in Buddhist terms, we often talk about skillful versus unskillful emotions or actions. And particularly around actions, it's like an emotion is an emotion. It's arising, it's already there. There's no point in saying this is good or bad. It's just, it is what it is. If sadness is there.
sadness is there. The question is, is it skillful or unskillful to act on it? That's the real question we should be asking ourselves is what is the skillful response? Because if you take it too far to say, every emotion is fine and just welcome everything, lust, yeah, just go for it. It's not necessarily skillful to act on that. And so the real question that we want to start asking ourselves is what's an appropriate response? What's a skillful action?
If I act on this desires that's skillful or not, that's a much better distinguishing feature than good versus bad. I actually had an experience recently that's related to my own recovery that was pretty profound for me. And you mentioned loneliness and I just want to share this briefly. So my wife and I had our second child recently and we were talking about that.
previous episode, very exciting, beautiful, also chaotic, having another child and navigating the newness of all of that and taking care of a new human in the world that you're responsible for. It's like, how am I qualified to do this? I know, but I did it once. We have one alive. So we're going to, I think we'll keep this one alive too. So anyway, we were at the hospital, right? And there was one night where my
Uh, wife was kind enough to say, Hey, you really need sleep. Why don't you go home for the evening? Cause it wasn't far away. So I went home. Went to, and, and I was in bed and, um, I had this, I had these very intense cravings for masturbation and that's, you know, I've been sober from porn for 10 years now, which is a huge blessing. Um, and masturbation hasn't been that long, um, for me, you know, it's been, uh,
Jake Kastleman (45:58.839)
couple of years. so for me, you know, that was what I always kind of went to when I was younger. It's been over 20 years ago now when it started as this comfort mechanism for me, right? And so when I get in stressful situations, that's one of the things that my mind will go to, Masturbation is what's going to take care of your problems, right? Help you feel better, get you comfort and escape. And so I was, you know, I'm at home and feeling this.
And I've been practicing this, especially the last year and a half of just being deeply present. And for me, it's through a parts worker and IFS perspective, I utilize those concepts every day. And so in feeling this craving, being deeply present with that feeling and that part of me that's feeding that to me of, okay, here this is, right?
A part of me, a part of my mind trying to bring me comfort, right? It's trying to bring me comfort. And not labeling that part of me as bad, I've been practicing and learned to just see it as, again, a part of me trying to help, trying to bring comfort. I don't have to do what it says, right? But I can be present with it, appreciate it for how it's trying to show up. And then asking what was below it, right?
And also getting present with the part of me that wants to judge it be, it's gotta go away. I can't feel this, you know, make this part of me go away that wants, it's going to ruin my whole life, right? Okay. I understand that part too, that's trying to hold me to morals and standards and values and all that. And that's a good part of me too, right? And so then seeing underneath, you know, I asked, okay, what, like, what is this kind of a protective mechanism for, for me? And the very distinct answer came loneliness.
Well, I was feeling lonely. It had been multiple days in the hospital. We're away from our normal routines. know, I'm, my baby's in the NICU, so I'm back and forth from the NICU and visiting my wife and her room. And so, you know, and I'm not working. I'm not meeting with clients. I didn't realize till that moment how much I've come to just rely on the connection that I experienced with clients every day and how meaningful that is. And so I'm feeling lonely and I'm like,
Jake Kastleman (48:24.173)
All right, so I'm kind of, feeling that and thinking, yeah, well, not working and kind of all those things I said, and this is what I'm feeling and really embracing that part of me. And this this reminds me actually, Thich Nhat Hanh, I'm very, you know, a huge admirer of his work and his book, The Heart of the Buddhist Teachings. He talks about that, embracing our feelings, of giving them a hug.
type thing and so I embraced this part of me that felt the loneliness. Said, come on man, come here, it's okay. It's all right to feel lonely. That makes sense that you'd feel lonely right now. And I really just embraced all that intensity and all that feeling of loneliness and everything that was underneath the craving and just held that part of me, right?
That was not something I was capable of at all a couple of years ago. You know, it was very much the fighting and the driving and the straining and the trying to make it go away. How do I distract myself? And it just feeds the problem, right? Yeah, I don't know if you have any thoughts about that as far as how that relates to what you do or anything else, but...
Yeah, I mean, totally. First of all, I just think it's so beautiful the way you were able to describe that because it is, that is such a core component of real recovery is that there's the compassion, the acceptance, the welcoming, your emotions with open arms and parts work is amazing. Internal family systems, learning how to say, yeah, there's a part of me that's lonely or hurt and I want to welcome it and say, Hey, I see you.
You're okay. I'm here for you. I think you just nailed it so beautifully, you know, as a great description for any guys out there listening that this work of recovery is not about beating up those parts of yourself or cutting those parts of yourself off or suppressing, you know, those feelings and emotions and saying, this lust is bad and I've got to get rid of it and push it down because that just doesn't work. And what really works is
Jake Kastleman (50:48.421)
as you say, like turning towards it and saying, this is a part of me that just feels lonely. This is a part of me that feels afraid or whatever it is. And I can give it comfort. I can treat it as I would treat, you know, a hurt young child who's coming to me in pain. And so that is such an important component of real recovery is learning to make peace with all the parts of yourselves.
Rather than to, you know, it's like the goal that I'm sure you have and that I have for all of the clients we work with is that they live a life of inner peace where they get to stop this constant fight against themselves. Like you and I wouldn't say, yeah, my goal for you is, you know, 10 years from now, you haven't watched porn, but you're in a constant battle every day of fighting against yourself and just brute force. No.
You know, I'm not going to act out. It's like, that's not the goal that we have, you know, for ourselves or for anyone we're working with. It's to end the struggle and to find peace within yourself. Like real, you know, I'm okay. And yeah, these emotions I'm having, I understand why I'm having them and there's nothing wrong with me. And I know that maybe watching porn right now isn't skillful, so I'm not going to do it, but I understand.
the reason behind that feeling or that desire. And I have compassion for myself. that's the goal. Yeah. And I love it, Jeremy. And for you, what do you find, you know, in talking about that loneliness piece that I was feeling, getting in touch with the core need that I had, the core good desire, which was I want to be connected with people.
You know, I want to feel loved and love others. Like I really want to feel that human connection and relationship. And right now there's a part of me that's feeling like I don't have that. For you, what do you see are these deeper needs that men are trying to fulfill through pornography? Yeah. Well, first, I guess one thing I'd like to say on this question of the deeper needs and why it's important. Are you familiar with the Rat Park experiment? Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (53:11.214)
Yeah. So I'll just explain it briefly for anyone listening who isn't familiar with it. know, researchers were studying addiction, you know, back in the eighties and seventies, eighties, particularly as soldiers were coming back from war. So they were studying the effect of morphine addiction in rats. And so they would give these rats in cages, they would give them water laced with morphine. And they found out that the rats were so addicted, they would sit there and drink the water basically until they died. They were just so addicted to the morphine water.
And so it highlighted how strong addiction can be. But then this one researcher had this really interesting insight. He said, well, these rats are living in these miserable cages. It's not a natural condition. What if we gave them a more natural rat-like environment? know, gave them greenery and plants and other rats to play with and exercise wheels. What if we gave them that and then looked at the effects of addiction? So they first got the rats addicted to the morphine.
water and then they put them in these natural environments, they call the rat parks, where they had rats to play with and exercise and all this stuff. And they found out that the rats barely touched the water, the morphine water after that. That when they were living in a deeply fulfilling environment, when they had other rats to play with and socialize with and they had exercise and all of that stuff, there was nothing for addiction to latch onto. And so it just highlights how important
it is for us to not just look at the behavior or the substance and demonize it and say, it's all about that substance. It's really about are we living a deeply fulfilling life? Are we having our needs met? Because if we're not getting our deepest needs met, we are going to get addicted to whatever it is that's there, whether it's porn or gambling or junk food or alcohol. And so we've got, you know,
to address the deeper needs of our life and live a more fulfilling life if we want to beat addiction on all fronts, you know, from the inside. So to me, that story of the Rat Park just really highlights why it's important to focus on these deeper needs in life. And, as you mentioned, social connection and all these other things. So for a lot of guys these days, know, social connection is a big one.
Jake Kastleman (55:37.881)
getting their body kind of moving enough and not getting enough exercise or sunlight or physical activity, you know, is another thing that really causes that. Not having enough joy in life. There are a lot of guys out there who maybe have the social connection to go to the gym, but they don't have any joy or playfulness in their life. And that's a big one too, is like finding ways to enjoy your life is important. To play sports and have fun and be playful.
So there's a lot of different needs that are not being met and for each guy it's going to be different. Which again is not to beat the drum too much, but mindfulness, it's like it's so important. Mindfulness can be that tool of self-awareness that lets you see what it is that you're needing. As you used it so beautifully, it's like, I'm lonely. I'm aware that I'm not getting the connection I need. Yeah, because it requires...
As you say, it's a skill, it's something to be practiced, you know, this new neural wiring we have to build because, I mean, I know for me how completely out of tune I was with my own emotions. I I a lifetime angry. I was always angry, just a kind of a simmering anger always under the surface. And I, if someone would have asked me, how are you feeling right now? I'm good, you know?
I had no clue that I was always angry. And you know, for me, I'm a Christian, right? And so I was actually praying several, this is a number of years ago, eight years ago or so. And I was like, God, you know, I want to be a better man. What do I need to focus on? And I got this very distinct impression, which was, you got to give up your anger. And I remember just being like,
My anger, what are you talking about? What anger are you referring to? I'm not angry. I'm never angry. Right? And I remember how then in the following weeks, I just became very, very aware of I'm always angry. Just always. And so the anger that I felt and then the perfectionism that I had all the time, this underlying
Jake Kastleman (58:04.116)
just frequency consistently there, which you mentioned it before, of shame. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not matching up. I need to be better. I should be doing better. Why am I not doing this? Why am I not doing that? And I still deal with, you know, shame and perfectionism as we all deal with shame, right? But being deeply mindful of it and being aware of it, there's that part of me that feels it's not good enough and is
feeding me these messages and understanding why. And I have parts of me that have very high standards and want to live according to a very high moral code. It's so that's good. It's not bad that I want those things or that those parts of me want those things and feeling and acceptance and an appreciation, compassion for those parts of me. And one of the things that you mentioned,
Jeremy, you were talking about, actually I don't remember exactly what you said, but it made me think of the realm of hungry ghosts. And I know we talked about this in our previous conversation. So I wanted to bring that up. There are many people who may not be aware of it, what that is or what that analogy, that metaphor is. Why don't you describe that for a bit and we'll just talk about how that relates to addiction.
Yeah, I love this topic. The realm of the hungry ghost is a topic that it's so succinctly captures, you know, what addiction is all about and just that feeling of it. for people who aren't familiar with what that is, you
Jake Kastleman (59:59.307)
In Buddhist philosophy, there are these different realms of existence and we know now that they're not real realms, they're not like real places you can go. They're more manifestations of the mind. So there are different kind of mental qualities we can inhabit. But there are these different realms and so, you know, one realm is like the heavenly realm where everything is just blissful and happy and joyful and everything is pleasant all the time. That's the heavenly realm.
Then there's the hell realm where everything is just unpleasant. It's torture and pain and suffering and darkness. There's the human realm that we live in, which kind of has a mix of all these things. And then there's the animal realm, which is very primal instincts and animals, just doing animal things. And then there's this one realm called the realm of the hungry ghosts. And it's this realm of these ghost-like creatures that wander around and they're these
They have these massive bellies, these huge stomachs, massive stomachs and tiny pinhole mouths. So their mouths are so small that they wanted this existence and they can never eat enough to satisfy their massive hunger. And so their whole existence is just wandering around this realm, constantly feeling hungry and never able to satisfy their hunger. And I just feel like that it's so...
It so much captures what addiction feels like. It's just wandering around, always feeling hungry for more and never able to satisfy your hunger. And that, when I was in the midst of my addiction to porn, I remember it so clearly, so vividly, that feeling of never being able to satisfy my hunger. Like, it was insatiable. No matter how much porn I watched, I always wanted more.
No matter how much sex I had, I always wanted more. No matter how much success or validation, it was never good enough. Nothing was ever good enough and I always needed more. And so that realm of the hungry ghost is just a great analogy for what the mind and life of addiction feels like. And do see all those as intertwined, Jeremy, as kind of an overarching mindset?
Jake Kastleman (01:02:15.803)
of addiction, you know, whether it be I'm never enough success, never enough money, never enough, never a good enough husband, never a good enough this, that, and then never enough porn. Are those all of the same frequency or what have you, or how do you see it? Totally. Yeah, they're all, mean, the same, like the same neural pathways, you know, are associated with all of them. Just this feeling of, I need more.
I need more, I'm not satisfied. This isn't good enough. Whether it gets directed towards, you know, this porn isn't enough and I need more videos and you know, whatever, this, you know, I'm not good enough and I need to be more and I'm not satisfied or my partner isn't good enough and she needs to look better and all that. It's the same flavor of the mind of I need something else to be happy. That's that craving that we talked about earlier.
this feeling of I need something else. So yeah, it really all is intertwined. It's not just people think a lot of people, you know, they think, it's just porn. If I can just stop watching porn, all my problems will be fixed. And, know, what I like to say is like sobriety is not the same as recovery. Just stopping some behavior doesn't, doesn't really fix any of your problems. It, it helps, you know, it is helpful to stop watching porn because it's like, if you keep
pouring poison on a plant. It's very hard for that plant to grow even if you give it proper sunlight and water and nutrients in the soil. So we do have to stop pouring the poison on us, but we also need to give ourselves sunlight, nutrients, water, all these things that allow us to grow. And that's the work of recovery, which is beyond just stopping watching porn. It's one of the things that
talked with clients about multiple times, you know, comes up where it's like, well, when I quit porn, then I can start this side hustle I want to do. Or when I quit porn, then I can finally be the kind of husband that I want to be. Or when I quit porn, then I'll finally feel good enough. And look, again, like you say, pouring poison on that plant, yeah, that will help to get rid of the poison. But I say,
Jake Kastleman (01:04:41.726)
you have it flipped. You have to start pursuing those things of being the husband that you want to be, or pursuing the side hustle that you're passionate for, or trying to cultivate a belief of I am good enough because I'm doing things that are meaningful or things that I enjoy. Cultivating those are going to take, they're going to replace the addiction. Yeah. Yeah.
What I see in the clients that I've worked with is the ones who are most successful at overcoming porn are the ones who... Porn isn't even really a focus of the work that we're doing. Like we're not even talking about it that much. Instead, we're talking about, I'm pursuing this new passion and I'm having this conversation with my wife that we've never had before and I'm really working on my career and I'm getting to the gym. The ones, the guys who are most successful...
Porn is like an afterthought. It's almost like, I haven't even thought about porn in a while because I'm focused on all these other aspects of improving my life. Yeah, it can feel so counterintuitive because we get so fixated on this one thing, this very narrow perspective of if I can just get rid of this, then everything will be solved. And I think I realized that during my recovery where
when I did finally get sober from porn, my mind just moved on to some other reason that I wasn't good enough, right? And then I got rid of that thing or overcame that thing. And then it was another thing. And I started to realize, okay, this is not actually about what I thought it was about, you know, it's about something much deeper. And I wondered from your perspective, you know,
How does shame, again going back to kind of our core topic here, how does shame fuel the hungry ghost cycle, this kind of cycle we get in? And how does awareness begin to break that loop that we get into? Yeah, it's a great question. I all of these things are intertwined, but sometimes they're very subtle, the connections, but
Jake Kastleman (01:06:57.297)
You know, again, just going back to understanding how shame impacts our behavior. know, shame is that feeling that, you know, I'm not good enough, there's something wrong with me. Again, toxic shame. We'll just call it toxic shame or call it shame, but know that we're talking about the toxic shame. It's that feeling that I'm not good enough the way I am. You know, if people knew the truth about me, they would, they would shun me or something's wrong with me. And when we have this fundamental belief, something is wrong with me.
We feel that we need to fill that void or cover up that insecurity with things outside of ourself. I need to get this validation from someone outside of me in order to feel okay. I need to wear this certain kind of watch and make sure people see it in order to feel like I'm worthy of respect. And so we start putting our sense of self-worth outside of ourself.
And that's what leads to the hungry ghost syndrome. was thinking, you know, these hungry ghost creatures, you know, they wander around constantly looking for things outside of themselves, thinking, I need something else to fill that void inside of me. As opposed to realizing, hey, I mean, it's kind of poetic if these ghosts could realize that they have everything they need. They don't need to fill their massive stomach. There is no void.
It doesn't matter how small your pinhole mouth is because you don't actually need to put stuff in it. You're already full and whole and you don't need those external things. And that's part of where we hope to get to in recovery is feeling that sense of genuine self-worth and self-respect and self-love.
I can't think of a better note to kind of end on Jeremy. Is there anything else though that you wanted to discuss that we haven't talked about in the episode today?
Jake Kastleman (01:08:55.524)
Not really. I think the questions you asked and the things we hit on today are really so much like the foundation of recovery. It's all the right stuff of letting go of shame, welcoming your emotions, living a fulfilling life. I feel like that's a mic drop moment. That's what you got to do and get connected, connect with other people. We talked a little bit about like
being around other guys and getting support and being held accountable. We didn't really talk too much about accountability, but accountability is so valuable. know, like letting other guys in on what you're doing and just knowing that you're going to check in with other guys. That alone does wonders for your recovery. And it's the thing, a lot of times people ask me, what's the first step somebody can do if they feel like they're addicted is I say get connected, you know, let yourself be held accountable by other guys.
Because that alone, so many of the guys in my program, say, yeah, just knowing that we're going to have this weekly check-in. You know, there was a time where I was tempted to act out, but I knew we were going to have a weekly check-in, so I decided not to. And that can be really powerful because when you're trying to do it alone, it's just too easy to say, nobody's going to know, you know, what's the big deal if I act out? I'll just start again on Monday. So doing it alone is just so challenging.
And when you can get connected, puts your recovery on, you know, gives rocket fuel to your recovery. it. Speaking of getting connected, how can people connect with you if they want to work with you or where should they go if they want to, yeah, if they want to work with you, Jeremy? Yeah, I would say, you know, first, if you're interested in kind of hearing more about the work I do, just check out my podcast Unhooked.
that's probably the best place to learn about the work I do. And then if you want to learn more about the community I run or working with me, just go to unhookedacademy.com and it's got all the information there. Awesome. Love it. Love it, man. Well, such a privilege to have you on Jeremy. A lot of just amazing quality that you're offering and beautiful insights. think it's helped a lot of men today. So thanks for coming on, man. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.
Jake Kastleman (01:11:23.099)
Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. If you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn.
or my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome porn addiction. And you can find them at nomordesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives.
So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.
Jake Kastleman (01:12:39.595)
Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,
please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
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