How to Heal Your Marriage After Porn Addiction | Childhood Trauma, Betrayal & the Power of Empathy with Matt Wenger

You've stopped watching porn. You're working on your recovery. You're doing the things you know you're supposed to do. But your marriage is still hurting.

Your wife still struggles to trust you. She gets angry about things you thought you'd already worked through. Maybe she seems incapable of recognizing your progress, and you're beginning to wonder whether things will ever get better.

My friend, I understand this personally. And there's something important I want you to understand about how to heal your marriage after porn addiction.

Quitting pornography is not the same as healing from pornography addiction. And healing from pornography addiction is not the same as healing your marriage.

In a recent conversation on the No More Desire Podcast, I sat down with Matt Wenger, Executive Clinical Director at the Begin Again Institute and a specialist in sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We explored some of the deeper psychological and relational patterns that often prevent marriages from healing, even when sobriety has been established.

What we discussed was powerful, particularly because so much of it has been part of my own recovery journey.

Today, I want to share what we uncovered about childhood trauma, betrayal, emotional maturity, and the power of empathy to help you become a healthier man and create the possibility of a truly healthy marriage.

A reminder to join the No More Desire Brotherhood online community, download my ebook, or sign up for my workshop. These resources are free, and they are your next step to get sober. You’ll find each of them and more at nomoredesire.com/tools.

Why Quitting Porn Isn't Enough to Heal Your Marriage

One of the biggest misunderstandings about pornography addiction recovery is that once the addictive behavior stops, the problems it created should begin disappearing.

And don't get me wrong. Sobriety is essential. If you're continuing to engage in behaviors that violate the commitments of your marriage, it's going to be incredibly difficult to establish trust and safety.

But sobriety is only one part of recovery.

A man can stop watching pornography and still be dishonest. He can remain defensive, controlling, emotionally unavailable, resentful, or deeply insecure. He can continue living with the same beliefs and relationship patterns that made pornography such an appealing escape in the first place.

I know this because I experienced it myself.

I entered marriage having already established sobriety from pornography. I believed I'd made tremendous progress, and in many ways I had. But over the years, I began recognizing how much unhealthy emotional baggage I still carried.

I had unconscious assumptions about relationships, honesty, emotional vulnerability, and sexuality that were deeply affecting my marriage. In some ways, I was recreating the very relational wounds I'd experienced growing up.

This is why I teach men that freedom from pornography is a byproduct of a life well lived. We need to build a recovery mindset and lifestyle that supports emotional health, personal integrity, meaningful connection, and healthy masculinity.

And a big part of that process begins with understanding our past.

How Childhood Trauma and Attachment Wounds Affect Porn Addiction

Matt described two types of childhood attachment wounds that can influence how we relate to ourselves and others: hot wounds and cold wounds.

Hot attachment wounds develop in environments characterized by emotional intensity, conflict, chaos, abuse, or unpredictable relationships. A child learns that relationships can be overwhelming, frightening, or unsafe.

Cold attachment wounds, on the other hand, develop through emotional absence. Perhaps your parents weren't abusive or particularly harsh, but they weren't emotionally present either. You didn't feel understood, comforted, encouraged, or deeply connected.

Both experiences can leave a child feeling fundamentally alone.

When a boy doesn't have emotionally attuned adults helping him navigate his feelings, he may begin looking for ways to manage them independently. Pornography, video games, food, fantasy, or other stimulating experiences can become convenient sources of relief.

And as he grows older, those patterns may follow him into marriage.

Research supports an association between childhood emotional maltreatment and later romantic relationship difficulties, although childhood experiences do not determine anyone's future. A meta-analytic review published in Trauma, Violence, & Abuse found a modest but meaningful relationship between early emotional maltreatment and lower adult romantic relationship well-being.

What I want you to understand is that the emotional patterns you developed to survive childhood may be the very patterns preventing you from experiencing healthy intimacy today.

Perhaps you learned to withdraw when someone became angry. Maybe you learned to perform for approval, hide your mistakes, or manage everybody else's feelings.

Those responses may have made sense in your childhood environment. But they can become destructive in an adult marriage.

If you'd like to explore this more deeply, I discuss the role of early experiences in porn addiction recovery and the neuroscience of storywork.

The Hidden Connection Between Childhood Pain and Adult Entitlement

One of the most fascinating points Matt made involved the relationship between childhood wounds and entitlement.

We often imagine entitlement as arrogance or selfishness. But sometimes it develops in someone who sees himself as remarkably selfless.

Imagine a little boy who grows up believing he must take care of everyone around him. He performs well, avoids conflict, helps his parents, and tries desperately to be good enough.

But underneath all that effort is a painful question: When is somebody going to take care of me?

Now imagine that boy as an adult.

He works hard. He provides for his family. He takes care of responsibilities. But he also feels unappreciated, overlooked, and exhausted.

Eventually, an unconscious belief emerges: I do everything for everybody else. I deserve something for myself.

Pornography becomes his secret compensation.

Matt described the hero and the victim as two sides of the same coin. One identity says, "Look at everything I do." The other says, "Look at everything I've suffered." Both can become organized around the belief that the world owes us something.

This doesn't mean your legitimate needs don't matter. They absolutely do. But unmet needs do not give us permission to violate our values or hurt the people we love.

Recovery requires learning to recognize those needs and meet them through healthy, responsible choices rather than entitlement and escape.

Understanding Betrayal Trauma: Why Your Wife Still Doesn't Trust You

To heal your marriage after porn addiction, you need to understand something about your wife's experience that may be very different from your own.

You may see pornography as a destructive behavior you've struggled to control. Your wife may experience it as the discovery that another sexual relationship or activity existed within a marriage she believed was exclusive.

Matt described this as discovering a third party in the relationship—something the betrayed spouse never knowingly agreed to.

And the resulting pain can extend far beyond the behavior itself.

Your wife may begin questioning years of memories, conversations, and experiences. She may wonder what was real, what was concealed, and whether she can trust her own judgment.

The person she depended on for emotional security has become associated with uncertainty and pain.

Research on romantic betrayal has documented profound distress, including anxiety, depression, and trauma-related symptoms in some betrayed individuals. A qualitative study published in Stress and Health helps illustrate how destabilizing these experiences can become.

Matt shared something particularly heartbreaking: some betrayed partners describe the best moment of their day as the few seconds after waking, before remembering what has happened to their marriage.

Now imagine carrying that grief while living alongside the person whose actions caused it.

When she becomes distressed because you're looking at your phone, working late, or behaving unusually, she may be responding to far more than what's happening in that moment.

Understanding this doesn't mean every accusation is accurate or every reaction is appropriate. It means recognizing that betrayal can profoundly disrupt someone's sense of safety.

And that understanding is where empathy begins.

Your Childhood Trauma Explains Your Behavior. It Does Not Excuse It.

Here's where recovery becomes particularly challenging.

As you begin exploring your childhood trauma, you may finally understand why you've struggled with pornography, dishonesty, emotional avoidance, or unhealthy relationship patterns.

That understanding can be incredibly healing.

But your wife may not be ready to hear it.

Imagine discovering that your husband has betrayed you for years, only to have him begin explaining how emotionally neglected he was as a child.

Even if everything he's saying is true, it may feel like he's asking you to put aside your pain and comfort him.

Matt warned that men can unintentionally use therapeutic language to avoid accountability. Suddenly, every destructive behavior has an explanation, and every difficult conversation becomes another opportunity to discuss the husband's wounds.

You can have compassion for the boy you were while taking full responsibility for the man you've become.

Both truths matter.

Your childhood pain deserves attention, understanding, and healing. But your wife does not have to become responsible for that healing, especially while she is struggling with the consequences of your choices.

Find appropriate support for your own recovery. Work through your wounds with a therapist, qualified coach, or supportive community. And allow your wife to have her own experience without making your pain the center of hers.

Two Drowning People Cannot Save Each Other

Matt shared an analogy that I found particularly meaningful.

Imagine two people drowning in the ocean. Both are exhausted, terrified, and struggling to stay above water.

Naturally, they reach for each other. But because neither has the stability or resources necessary to help, they may end up pulling one another underwater.

This can happen in marriages affected by pornography addiction and betrayal trauma.

The husband is struggling with shame, childhood wounds, fear, and emotional instability. His wife is struggling with grief, betrayal, hypervigilance, and a shattered sense of safety.

Both desperately need support. But neither may be capable of providing everything the other needs.

Matt's point was that each person needs access to their own support and recovery resources.

For you, that might mean individual counseling, recovery coaching, a men's group, healthy friendships, or participation in a recovery community.

For your wife, that might mean working with a qualified betrayal trauma therapist, finding supportive relationships, and rediscovering her identity apart from your recovery.

This isn't about emotionally abandoning one another. It's about developing enough personal stability that you can begin relating as two healthy adults rather than two overwhelmed people desperately trying to rescue each other.

Stop Performing Recovery and Start Living It

Another pattern Matt identified is what I would call transactional recovery.

A man begins doing everything he's supposed to do. He attends meetings, completes assignments, develops accountability, and maintains sobriety.

But underneath those efforts, he's keeping score.

I've been sober for three months. Why doesn't she trust me yet? I've been doing all this work. When is she going to acknowledge it?

Notice what's happening.

Recovery has become another performance through which the man hopes to earn something from his wife.

When the desired response doesn't come, resentment grows.

Real recovery requires a different motivation.

You tell the truth because you value honesty. You become emotionally present because you value connection. You respect boundaries because you value integrity. You take responsibility because that's the kind of man you want to be.

You don't do these things merely to earn forgiveness, affection, or sex.

You do them because they're right.

This shift from performance to integrity is foundational to healthy masculine leadership.

And over time, your wife may begin observing something different in you—not merely a man who's working hard to avoid pornography, but a man who's becoming more mature, dependable, compassionate, and trustworthy.

Why Empathy Is Essential for Healing Your Marriage

Near the end of our conversation, Matt identified empathy as one of the most important qualities he looks for in men working toward relational recovery.

And I think this is profound.

Empathy isn't merely understanding intellectually that your wife is hurting. It's developing the emotional capacity to enter her experience with compassion, without becoming consumed by your own shame, fear, or defensiveness.

Many men struggle with this because they've never learned to tolerate their own emotions.

When their wife becomes angry, they become defensive. When she cries, they withdraw. When she expresses disappointment, they feel rejected.

Instead of recognizing her emotions as information about her experience, they interpret those emotions as threats.

Matt offered a beautiful reframe: Emotions are not necessarily threats. They can be invitations to connection.

Now notice that I'm not suggesting you tolerate abuse or abandon healthy boundaries. Both spouses deserve dignity and respect.

But imagine your wife saying, "I don't know if I'll ever be able to trust you again."

Your instinct might be to defend yourself by explaining how much you've changed.

Instead, what if you paused long enough to recognize the fear beneath her words?

You might respond, "I hear how frightening this still is for you. I understand that my choices have made it difficult to trust me, and I want to keep showing you through my actions that I'm committed to honesty."

You're not trying to eliminate her emotions. You're learning to remain present with them.

And that may be one of the most important relational skills you ever develop.

How People-Pleasing and Dishonesty Undermine Emotional Safety

One especially interesting part of our conversation involved people-pleasing.

Matt explained that people-pleasing often begins as a childhood strategy for maintaining emotional safety.

If I can keep everybody happy, perhaps nobody will become angry. If nobody becomes angry, perhaps I'll feel safe.

But in adulthood, this pattern can make honesty extraordinarily difficult.

You might conceal something from your wife because you're afraid of upsetting her. You might minimize a mistake, avoid an uncomfortable conversation, or adjust your story to make yourself look better.

You tell yourself you're protecting her feelings.

But often, you're protecting yourself from having to experience her feelings.

This is something I've had to confront in my own marriage.

I carried unconscious beliefs about dishonesty and emotional avoidance that took years to recognize. Learning to become more honest required learning to tolerate discomfort—both within myself and in my relationship.

Healthy emotional intimacy requires the capacity to tell the truth, hear uncomfortable truths, and allow both people to have their own feelings.

That's very different from people-pleasing.

It's love grounded in integrity rather than fear.

Healthy Boundaries Cannot Control Someone Into Recovery

Matt also made an important distinction about boundaries.

A betrayed spouse may establish boundaries around devices, travel, sexual behavior, honesty, or recovery participation. Those boundaries can clarify what is acceptable and what actions she may take if agreements are violated.

But boundaries cannot force someone to remain sober or become trustworthy.

Likewise, you cannot force your wife to forgive you, trust you, or remain in the marriage.

This is difficult because both people understandably want certainty.

But genuine relationship recovery requires personal agency. Each person must be able to make choices about their own behavior, safety, and future.

The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration identifies safety, trustworthiness, collaboration, and empowerment as important principles of trauma-informed support.

These principles are valuable reminders that healing cannot be manufactured through pressure or control.

Your responsibility is to become trustworthy. Your wife's responsibility is not to reward your efforts with trust before she's ready.

And if a relationship remains unsafe or harmful, she has every right to make decisions necessary to protect her well-being.

A Practical Exercise for Becoming a More Emotionally Mature Husband

Understanding these concepts is valuable. But the real transformation happens when you begin practicing them in your daily life.

Here's an exercise I recommend as a practical application of what Matt and I discussed.

The next time you experience a difficult interaction with your wife, resist the urge to immediately defend yourself, explain your intentions, or shut down.

Instead, work through four questions.

First, what am I feeling? Perhaps it's shame, fear, anger, inadequacy, or helplessness. Notice the emotion without judging yourself for experiencing it.

Second, what story am I telling myself? Maybe you're interpreting her anger as proof that you'll never be good enough. Maybe you believe she's attacking you, even though she's trying to communicate something painful.

Third, what might she be experiencing? Consider the fear, sadness, confusion, or disappointment underneath her words. You don't need to assume you know exactly how she feels. Get curious and ask.

Fourth, what would love and integrity look like right now? Perhaps you need to acknowledge her pain, admit a mistake, tell an uncomfortable truth, or simply listen without trying to fix anything.

You can also use my RAIL Method™ and other recovery tools to strengthen your ability to recognize emotions, respond compassionately, and make values-based decisions.

Practice this consistently. Not because it guarantees your marriage will heal, but because emotional maturity is worth developing regardless of the outcome.

You Cannot Decide What Survives the Fire

Matt closed our conversation with one of the most powerful analogies I've heard about healing after betrayal.

Imagine your home burns down.

Inside that home were photographs, family heirlooms, sentimental belongings, and memories accumulated over many years.

Now the house is gone, and you're standing among the ashes.

This is what betrayal can feel like for a spouse. The life she believed she had has been damaged, and she doesn't know what remains.

Eventually, healing may involve returning to those ruins and discovering which things still have value.

But here's where the recovering husband must be careful.

He may want to rush into the burned-down house, pulling treasured objects from the ashes and insisting that his wife recognize their beauty.

"Remember this wonderful memory? Remember how happy we were? Surely our marriage wasn't all bad."

But she may not be ready to see things that way.

And she gets to decide what those memories mean to her now.

Your role isn't to determine what she should keep, forgive, or leave behind. Your role is to respect her experience, take responsibility for your actions, and become the kind of man who can walk beside her without controlling where the journey leads.

That's a very different kind of love than the self-centered, fear-driven patterns many of us learned growing up.

Can Your Marriage Become Stronger After Porn Addiction?

I've seen meaningful healing take place in relationships that once seemed hopeless. Matt has witnessed something similar through his clinical work.

But I want to be careful here. Recovery doesn't guarantee reconciliation, and experiencing personal growth doesn't make the betrayal acceptable or somehow worthwhile.

Nevertheless, when two people are willing and able to pursue genuine healing, something beautiful can emerge.

A man can learn to become emotionally present rather than withdrawn. He can develop integrity instead of secrecy, compassion instead of defensiveness, and responsibility instead of entitlement.

His spouse can have opportunities to reclaim her identity, strengthen her boundaries, and pursue healing that doesn't depend entirely on his choices.

And together, if both freely choose the relationship, they may develop a level of authenticity, understanding, and emotional intimacy they never previously experienced.

That's the hope I want you to carry.

The goal isn't simply to return to the marriage you had before addiction. It's to become capable of building a healthier relationship than you knew how to build before.

And that begins with the man you choose to become today.

If you're ready to do this deeper work, explore my one-on-one porn addiction recovery coaching. Together, we can work on the emotional, neurological, biological, and relational patterns that sustain addiction, helping you build a lifestyle grounded in connection, responsibility, purpose, and lasting recovery.

You cannot control every outcome. But you can choose to live with integrity, develop empathy, take responsibility for your life, and become a man who loves well.

And that, my friend, is work worth doing.

Connect with Matt Wenger and Begin Again Institute - life-changing Intensives for the addicted and betrayed →

https://beginagaininstitute.com/

Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, the free online community, my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.

If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Learn more about the Academy.

If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. Spots are limited. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Learn more about working 1-on-1 with Jake Kastleman.

Recommended Episodes:

Why Porn Addiction Destroys Trust in Marriage—and How Men Can Rebuild Real Connection

How to Support a Partner Struggling with Addiction (Without Losing Yourself to Betrayal Trauma)

My Wife Ignores My Progress with Porn Addiction | Navigating Relationship Struggles, Lack of Trust & Betrayal Trauma

Written by Jake Kastleman, founder of No More Desire®, porn addiction recovery coach, and host of the No More Desire Podcast. This article draws on my conversation with Matt Wenger, Executive Clinical Director at Begin Again Institute, alongside my own recovery experience and coaching perspective.

This article is for educational purposes and is not therapy, medical advice, or couples counseling. If you or your spouse are experiencing significant trauma symptoms, abuse, or concerns about personal safety, seek support from an appropriately qualified licensed professional.

Transcript for Episode 168: How to Heal Your Marriage After Porn Addiction | Childhood Trauma, Betrayal & the Power of Empathy with Matt Wenger

Jake Kastleman (00:00.16)

Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.

Jake Kastleman (00:17.582)

If you've had a porn addiction for years or even decades, and you've been lying to your spouse about it, then you live a double life. Which is another way of saying you live a half-life, split between a world of fantasy and self-destructive pleasure, and a world where you should feel connected, authentic, and joyous, but you don't. You feel unable to be authentic, unable to be present, unable to be you. Hell is a state of mind.

Matt Wenger (00:32.664)

Worlds.

Jake Kastleman (00:47.574)

This double life is that state, my friend. From this place it is impossible for you to truly progress and grow in the ways that you want to. It is impossible for you to live up to the potential you feel you have. You deserve better.

Matt Wenger (01:06.742)

What is it?

Jake Kastleman (01:07.182)

Spouse. She suffers with a man who isn't able to step into himself fully, isn't able to listen to the way she needs him to listen, and doesn't feel worthy of loving her with his whole heart. The relationship sometimes feels distant. It feels empty. It feels like neither side can truly see or be seen. And it often feels like conflict. And the worst part is you may be so used to some of these things.

Sometimes you hardly recognize the signs anymore. There is more waiting for you. Better life. My message to you is one of hope today. In this episode, we tackle the childhood attachment wounds and origins of pon addiction. We discuss compassion for addiction without excusing harm. We talk about the impact of addiction and betrayal trauma and the mending of a relationship that is long overdue. Both sides.

Need healing. Both sides need to feel hard. And that's what my guest Matt Winger and I are here to share in. Matt is the executive clinical director of Begin again Institute, a treatment center that offers trauma-based intensives for men seeking recovery from porn and sex addiction, and spouses seeking healing from betrayal. Matt has served more than 1,500 families with Beginnegin since 2019.

And he is a licensed professional counselor, certified sex addiction therapist, and certified clinical partner specialist. And it was truly a privilege to have him on the show. Before we dive in, I remind us to join the No More Desire Brotherhood online community. Download my ebook or sign up for my workshop. These resources are free, and they are your next step to get sober. You'll find each of them and more at NomorDesire.com/slash tools. All right, let's get started.

Jake Kastleman (03:08.684)

Matt, welcome on. So glad you're here, man. I wanna start by people getting to know you more, what you're about. maybe honestly a bit about your background and where you come from personally and then diving into professionally because there's a reason you do this work, that we all do this work. It's it's personal for so many of us. So

Matt Wenger (03:31.616)

Yeah. the story starts for me and it's it's a kind of an odd one, perhaps. But my my childhood experience was very similar to a lot of the men that we work with, in that there's this kind of attachment wounding, right? And that my my parents were not emotionally attuned, not connected to themselves or or really to their own

pain or hurt or emotions or or mine and my siblings. And so there's a lot of fallout around that and things that happened in and around our family that we're not attuned to very well. and while I didn't go to develop an addiction myself, it very easily like could have, I like, you know, I was exposed to pornography, like I found pornography and, you know, masturbation at that

in that developmental range of my life, but it never became a compulsive kind of behavior in my life. I attribute that a lot to like having other adults that were pouring into me and paying attention to me and emotionally attuned to me, like my youth pastor and, you know, coaches and and, you know, older young people that were kind of mentors to me and pouring into me and

so I'm really thankful for that. I don't think that we make out anybody makes out makes it out of their childhood unscathed. Like what Yes. Completely

Jake Kastleman (05:04.942)

It's so true. It's so true. I I actually and I'm and I'm cutting you off there, but I I love to hear this because you didn't you didn't develop the addiction at that time, right? And I and I actually think you s you say it's an odd story, and I hear what you're saying, but I also think it's an inspiring one and such a beautiful one in the way that you had people in your life. You had mentors, you had adults, you had people you were connecting with, and that is so integral and so important that that you had that, because you you see that really as

One of the key factors as to why you didn't develop the addiction, right?

Matt Wenger (05:38.806)

Yeah, I think that we have to kind of learn in in in in most of our cases of people that have experienced that kind of what you might call like emotional vacancy in our relationships and our caregivers. You kinda have to figure it out and navigate it on your own. And almost every addict I've ever worked with has said that at some point to themselves or to someone else that, like, I'm on my own here. I've got to take care of myself. And if you continue in that.

way, then you're gonna have to find coping from the outside in. I I'm not gonna be able to I don't have the resilience built up built up in me and the worth and value kind of cultivated in me by these other stable relationships. So so I need outside in coping and I and I'll go to video games or, you know, pornography or eating or yeah, to to to pull that in. And so

Jake Kastleman (06:32.044)

Social media

Matt Wenger (06:38.238)

I I I was kind of on a journey of how I was gonna deal with that. There's some spiritual kind of wounding along the way too in different places I worked, but when I became a therapist, I actually started working with kids. And I worked with like six to eighteen year olds and I spent a lot of time with young people and that really when when I did end up taking a job with a CSAT and not really knowing much about sex addiction, all of that childhood trauma work really just translated like, man.

the folks that we're working with are just traumatized children. There's there's taller. And so

Jake Kastleman (07:14.53)

Right. They're just taller. Yeah, 'cause we have those these very childlike parts of our our minds, our emotions. And that's a lot of times what I describe to guys, you know, they'll they'll share an emotion like anger or craving and and really helping them see like there's that childlike emotion you there's that kid that's like screaming out for a need or a desire and guys really feeling, you know, that's a seven year old part of me.

It doesn't mean I am a seven year old, but it means that I have this part of me that very much is stuck back in that time and and I think that helps us still up a lot of compassion, you know.

Matt Wenger (07:50.616)

Yeah. You gotta hold that, right? Because you know, in therapy we call it like positive regard. Like I need to have a positive way that I look at this person and act with this person. Because in addiction it's really easy to see someone as selfish or a bully or a rageholic or a workaholic or, you know, a whatever. In

Jake Kastleman (08:14.914)

And we can engage in all those behaviors outwardly, right? And they're very painful for the people around us, right?

Matt Wenger (08:20.664)

Yeah. And yeah. And that shows up in all these relationships. And it's easy to encounter that with them in in in the therapy work. But what's always been so helpful to me is to continue to bring it back to that little kid and and the the the special relationship that that we can have with folks on that journey in therapy, in coaching is like I I I will I will see the tender parts of you even when you won't.

And even when the people in your life that you've hurt so badly, can't because of their hurt and pain, they can't see the tender parts of you. so we can and and then there's also accountability and appropriate call outs and all of those types of things that go along with real compassion and real love is not like letting things slide, you know.

Jake Kastleman (09:11.266)

Yes. And I and I and I love that you say the people around them can't see that, right? Especially if I'm and we're gonna really focus today's episode on betrayed spouses, right, and what they go through and that healing process and that work.

When I am a betrayed spouse, in a lot of ways I am really incapable at that time of of seeing mm the one who you know, my spouse who's caught up in addiction through that lens of compassion, at least for for a time, right? Because my gosh, they've done so much damage and they've hurt me so badly. How could I see them through those eyes, right? Would you say that's fairly accurate to what spouses go through? How would you put it actually?

Matt Wenger (09:57.078)

Well, I think that most betrayed folks have compassion. They have an ability to attune and empathize. You know, I found that like

That's not the issue. The issue is how and when this addicted person in their life, or this person seeking recovery in their life, is talking about their story. I just got caught and and and you're really, really upset. And now I'm gonna tell you about the hard things that I went through as a as a child. And like you don't understand, you know, I was treated like this, or you don't understand I was bullied, or you don't understand.

And when somebody is just reeling and their whole world is upside down and you've just, you know, brought them to the lowest point that they could imagine, that is it is going to be really hard for them to find, like, hey man, I and I've heard this from partners so many times. Like, I don't really care about your childhood trauma right now. Cause that just sounds like an excuse. That sounds like a justification. It sounds like

manipulation, like you're gonna talk me out of my anger and pain and sadness to feel bad for you. And I've heard that happen so many times where all of a sudden the person who's just been but like discovered this betrayal is comforting the the betrayer because of how they're choosing to tell that story and when. And when that comes back around, it's gonna be like, man, screw you guy. Like you picked that moment.

To tell me this, like you're you've always got to be the more wounded one. And when is it gonna be time to sit in my hurt and pain as a betrayed person? Whereas or or like to look, think about it another way. can I can I be attuned to this betrayed person? Can I be emotionally present? Can I own and be accountable for the things that I've done and support them through this hurt and pain?

Matt Wenger (12:05.752)

To where they can arrive at a point down the road and say, Man, what a mess. We are both w in over our heads here. And you have your story. And that is so awful. And the way that you've projected that onto me and, you know, brought that kind of trauma to my life too, like, what a mess. You know. And we can kind of be in the mess together, but that's

That's like way down the road of the healing process and we can't expect that to happen right away.

Jake Kastleman (12:38.776)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can be in the mess together. I like that. It's often what people say is it's to both spouses facing the addiction as the enemy, or through an IFS perspective, as this part that has been trying to solve a problem, trying to solve this this trauma we can get to understand and we can help transmute it into then something that would be no longer destructive, but actually to gain compassion understanding for why this happened and and working out of it and healing it.

I suppose is probably an imperfect way to say that. But, you know, some some some details in there. I I want to I really like something that you said. you always have to be the more wounded one, right? You're talking about how s how espouses will go through that with the the addict always needing to kind of be the more wounded one, be the one who the the the focus is on. So kind of at the beginning here.

what we're focusing on is common childhood experiences, kind of attachments, patterns that may lead to the development of a porn or sex addiction. you just talked about how you had connections in your life, right? And so you didn't develop that addiction. when it comes to being the more wounded one, what are some of those attachment wounds that we develop in childhood for a lot of us who then go on to develop an

addiction.

Matt Wenger (14:09.048)

Well, attachment wounds are complicated. The way that we talk about it at beginning again is like in an oversimplified way to help people kind of access what it is that we're talking about. Like there's these kind of hot wounds that where there's chaos or hurt or pain or abuse. Like the emotional temperature of that relationship is is really high. And there's cold attachment wounds where the emotional temperature is icy and there's not that emotional attunement. There's

that emotional vacancy the caregiver has their back to them. And sitting in that wounding with someone in recovery, we have to acknowledge two things. One, that this kid did not get their needs met, either because they were being hurt and they reached out and they were hurt, or they reached out and they got nothing. And it's really easy for folks that have experienced that kind of wounding to say, I didn't get what I want then. Now I'm always going to get what I want. Hmm.

And I'm not saying that like yeah, it's subconscious. But it's it's this entitlement of like, I'm doing everything for all these people and I'm I'm trying to fix this relationship between my parents or I'm d I'm trying to be the all-star to get them to turn around and I'm the hero and I'm the victim, which are two sides of the same coin of me. And it's all about me.

Jake Kastleman (15:09.078)

It's not conscious.

Jake Kastleman (15:29.07)

Right. Right. I like that you say two sides of the same coin. It's really true. It's you know, center centered on me. Either I'm a I'm the greater hero, right? So I'm a superior in that way or I'm the bigger victim and that makes me superior in that way. Is that kind of the unconscious pattern we can get into?

Matt Wenger (15:44.076)

Yeah. Yeah. And then look at like so so I'll do and do and do and do and do. And then you know my little entitlement victim guy is like, Hey, what about you, man? What about what about me? What about wait, I got my I have needs and what about me? Right. And there's these little boys inside that are saying, like, what about me? What about me? Hey, will somebody turn and and help me, take care of me? And what ends up happening is when we don't heal that or address it, we just kind of pass it on where

Now the just the role is reversed. Now I'm the one causing the chaos and the harm. And my partner is the one who's being hurt, or I'm so, you know, distracted and wrapped up and numbed out by my addiction that I'm icing out my partner. And so I've now put them in the my shoes as a young person in Well. Yeah. But because

I've never resolved that. I still think I'm the victim. So I'm the one doing the harm and I'm claiming the role of the victim. And that is why that's so painful to to f like run into that brick wall as a betrayed person and be like, You have been making me feel like this is my fault this whole time. And I am just now realizing that like this is your thing and you put it on me. And when partners when they run to that place, they're

They're furious. R rightly so, because they were blamed over and over and over again because they didn't have all the information. They just assume that this has something to do with them and their fault, or I'm not pretty enough, or you know, I'm not, you know, I don't look like this or that, or you know, we don't have enough sex or the right kind of sex or whatever it is. And you know, or I need to be more open, or you know, I'm too much of a knack. I mean, I've heard all of the things, right? And it's like none of this has to do with you. This behavior was going on before he met you.

And you know, so that blame shifting part of it. So so partners are not in a good place to look at the wounds that started this whole thing off because they're this is all fresh and like right in their face. And, you know, forays into therapy can give like some addicts some useful language that they can also use to manipulate, you know, like

Jake Kastleman (17:55.477)

Yeah.

Matt Wenger (18:05.646)

Talking about their trauma and their needs and you know, those kind of things and basically trying to convince the betrayed person to continue to try to cater to them and and you know, that's that can be really sad and hard.

Jake Kastleman (18:20.054)

Right, because we have to we have to walk this path where as recovering addicts, where we're doing two things at once, I feel like a lot of things we're doing, but two things as far as this betrayal is one, I need to take deep ownership for the damage that I've done in the relationship and and mi reconciling and making amends. And I also in the background of my own work have to be understanding and finding self-compassion for why I have done it without that being an excuse.

for the damage that I've done. Right. And I think that that's a fine line. It's really hard to hold both those in the beginning. And it's also very difficult for a lot of spouses to hear that or even be able to relate to it. Like, okay, so are you saying that's why you've done all this? You're making excuses as to the pain you've caused me because it's all about your childhood. Well, bully for you, that's great. This has been 20 years of you harming me. I don't care what the reasons are, it's not okay. Right.

Matt Wenger (19:19.486)

Yeah. And that's where like the quickest way to relapse is resentment. All right. So I come to you with my insight and all the things I'm learning about addiction and you know, and this is and you're like, I don't care. I don't care about you. Just just stop acting out. I really don't care about all of this other stuff. I don't want to hear it. And and like when we're early in that recovery process, it's like, well, wow, that's

feel good, you know, like though we we got language like, my my parts are sad or, you know, my inner child is really doesn't like that. And you know, we're not in early recovery, we don't go to partners for those affirmations and validations. We have to go to our community for that because we've so wounded this other person that they're not going to be present for those things. And as we learn to hold both of those things that you described within ourselves,

Like w we can learn to to h to hold that and and and be present to ourselves and to and allow the community of other men to help us hold those. Like I was a victim of trauma and I am now perpetrating trauma. Both of those things are true. Right. I can't let go of one or the other or I'll the pendulum will swing too far. I have to I have to hold both of those things. I am I I was a victim of trauma. I'm no longer.

And now I have become perpetrator. And so that's how I can hold space for other people that I've wounded. That's how I can develop empathy. I can pull from my own experiences to un try to understand what this other person is going through. So yeah, you're exactly right. Like so much of recovery is like tension and paradox, right? Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (21:12.12)

Those polarized parts, right, in IFS speak, right?

Jake Kastleman (21:18.83)

There are a lot of men who feel discouraged by some of the recovery programs or therapy services out there. Maybe you are this way as well. Tell me if this sounds familiar to you. You show up to a one-on-one session, someone asks you how your week went. You talk about your problems, maybe you talk about your relapses, and perhaps get a bit of advice or a listening ear, but you don't really feel like you are being given any sound tools to use throughout the week, throughout each day. This is not.

To say that these aren't well-meaning professionals or that they don't do a lot of good for you, but to overcome porn, you need a sound structure. Many of the men in my program who've tried traditional therapy routes or other services find something different in this program. I provide a step-by-step structure that guides you in building habits and tools for your recovery. I provide you with 10 to 15 minute daily practices to build emotional resilience and work through cravings, an entire online course library that I worked on for years.

With short lessons and applied exercises. In the program, you will learn practices derived from CBT, IFS, neuroscience, nutritional psychology, faith philosophy, and I help you apply each teaching to your everyday life through reflections, worksheets, and instructions. It's all about that application, guys. For guys who are looking for a higher level of support, I provide weekly one-on-one coaching to build personalized plans for your specific situation.

I also instruct you in meditation practices in session to work through cravings and emotions and to train yourself to do this so that when they come up, you'll know what to do. Many men find this extremely helpful. In addition to all this, you don't do things alone. You are part of a private online community and meet with a weekly group to connect with other men who are on the same journey. It's a really awesome culture. At No More Desire, you're not just getting sober. You're designing a life that you love. So to learn more about the program,

Go to nomoresire dot com slash coaching. All right, back to the show.

Jake Kastleman (23:22.094)

For a lot of guys that I I work with, they will come to me and they will say that in the beginning. They'll say, you know, my spouse is not supportive. You know, she's very critical. She doesn't understand why this is development for me. She's not interested in knowing that. She often says to me, I don't need to do any work to heal. You need to do all the work. So just just figure it out, just fix you, and then we'll be happy. And what I'll tell those guys is kind of as we said before, she she is not in a space right now to be able to offer you what you need.

So you need a group, you need one on one, you need, you know, a community, you need to connect with other men that are going through the same thing. You need to be able to be in that space so that you can express to them the things you're going through and they can offer you that empathy because she can't do that yet. Right. Maybe down the road she'll be in that place, but she's not there right now. And I think that's hard. I but but I think a lot of guys get that when there's it's said blatantly and straightforward, like.

Look where she's at. She can't do that right now. She's just in an emotional place where she's so hurt. She she can't be your cheerleader. She can't be your support in this way yet. Right? Would you would you say that's true for a lot of spouses?

Matt Wenger (24:34.122)

Absolutely. And I think the data shows that if both members of the partnership are receiving help, then the outcomes are so much better. The likelihood for healing is so much better. But most of the time, like spouse is not going to take that direction from the person who's hurt them. They're like, Hey, you know what? Have you ever thought about like, you know, you getting some therapy? It sounds kind of like like like you know, some

owning some of this, you know. right. It's fifty fifty. It takes two to tango. You know, all that sort of stuff. Right. I I think it actually works better the other way. Like, hey, I would love for you to to provide for you some help, some support for what I have done to you, for the harm that I have caused you. I would love to pay for some support for you.

Jake Kastleman (25:06.414)

Right.

Jake Kastleman (25:32.824)

Good.

Matt Wenger (25:34.154)

Owning the harm that's happened, not asking them to like go and deal with their anger or their childhood wounds or whatever. It's yeah, you've been wounded in betrayal. I've and learned there's resources out there for people that have experienced that, like what I've done to you. And like I I would love to support you in g in finding that help for yourself. The other thing is, hey man, if you're working your recovery really well, like that's gonna show. Recovery is a show don't tell, right? Like I gotta show my recovery. I don't talk about it.

Like, I'm going to meetings and I'm you it's like guys wanna like earn points. But right.

Jake Kastleman (26:09.022)

Which goes with the the the performance mentality, right, that often plays into the what feeds addiction.

Matt Wenger (26:15.662)

Right. Well yeah, and it's an it's it it's part of that entitlement that still hasn't been let go of yet. Like I can earn something from you and I'll look at all the things I'm doing in recovery and like when am I gonna get you to stop being mad at me or when am I gonna get you to let me have sex with you again or or whatever it is. And there's like entitlement and then resentment that comes from that. Like real recovery looks like, Hey, I know you're hurting and you're in pain and my job is to like get sober and stop hurting you. You know, that's that's my job right now.

Jake Kastleman (26:33.464)

Yeah.

Matt Wenger (26:45.196)

And as she sees that growth and that change and that maturity in you and your healing process, a lot of times there's this healthy jealousy of like, hey, I wanna move through this hurt and pain. I want the help and support that this person seems to have. I, you know, there are wounds in me that are keep getting set off and and I want so so so in some ways, like a g someone who's in good recovery kind of models that and creates that healthy jealousy within and you know, the betrayed.

person to seek out their own support, not because of anything they've done wrong, but because of what they've been through, you know.

Jake Kastleman (27:23.384)

And I think it's so hard for a lot of guys, especially early on when they're trying to learn some of these skills or, you know, you make me think of masculine leadership and what you've described, where we have to take on that ownership and and grow and growing up in a lot of ways from from a boy to a man where it's I I need to live according to my values and be the kind of man I want to be, regardless of, you know, the response of my spouse, right? I can take that in as feedback and how better to show up.

But it's not about me receiving accolades or receiving some kind of validation. I just need to show up well because I want to. And I think in the beginning it's I know for me it was how what is what what does that even mean? I I've never lived that way. I don't know how to feel that way. That's not my paradigm. It's so unconscious, kind of this performance mentality, this entitlement mentality that I've just lived my whole life that way. So what would that even feel like? Right.

Matt Wenger (28:19.468)

Damn.

Jake Kastleman (28:20.683)

so I want to focus on and talk about, you know, really diving into what happens in our relationships for a lot of spouses and kind of the the impact that porn has on the relationship, on the attachment. let's really center in on what that's like for betrayed spouses, how that feels a lot of times, the patterns that they'll get into, the ways that they'll respond in that situation. Let's talk about that.

Matt Wenger (28:50.508)

Well, I mean, there's a lot of ways to talk about betrayal. but a good place to start, I think, is the realization within betrayal is that there has been a third party in this relationship that I w did was not aware of that that I was lied to about, that I did not consent to.

whether that third party is pornography or an affair partner or an emotional affair or sex addicted behaviors of various types and kinds, there's this there's this third being person in this r you know, marriage here, in this relationship. There's this third party. And I did not sign up for that. I signed up for an exclusive relationship, a vulnerable, intimate, authentic relationship. And and I didn't

You know, that that that's the where betrayal usually starts. I didn't sign up for this. I didn't sign up to be with somebody who was fixated on this behavior or fixated on this, you know, a type of sexual activity or or or what have you.

Jake Kastleman (30:07.832)

And just wanting it to disappear, right? Can I just not be in this situation that I did not volunteer for? How is this even happening right now?

Matt Wenger (30:15.938)

Yeah, I think that's the hardest thing that I mean, holy cow, man. the when I I hear this from so many partners, the best part of my day is like the three seconds after I wake up in the morning and I haven't yet remembered what is my life now and what has happened to me. And

Jake Kastleman (30:41.24)

So it's so heartbreaking. Heartbreaking, man. So heavy.

Matt Wenger (30:47.338)

Yeah, can you imagine? Like, I I I I've spent a lot of my professional career like trying to imagine like what that would be like. And it's like grief, you know, that you wake up and and you forget that you've lost your child, or you forget that you've lost some your a parent or someone who's close to you and then they're still alive for in sort of for that three seconds right after you wake up.

But then you you it comes to your mind and all you see out in front of you is desert. And and it's angering and it's destabilizing and it's depressing and it's draining and it's a pit, a bowling ball in the stomach. It's a lightning bolt to the nervous system. It's all of those things all at the same time. And this person who was sub who is

I I'm supposed to rely on and connect with and be supported and partner with and and raising these kids and and growing old. Like this is the person who's done this to me. And I I try to explain this to guys all the time. If you've ever been abused, like physically, emotionally, sexually, right? Imagine like living with your abuser. Right. It's not a trigger. It's like a hundred percent. Like triggers are like,

A memory of something. Triggers are 10 or 15% of something that's happened to you. But when you're living with someone who's betrayed you, that's like ninety-five percent of all of that data is right there in your kitchen, you know, and and and they're looking at their phone. Or they got the laptop turned away from you. Or their their keys are jingling in their pocket. It's just like little things.

Jake Kastleman (32:45.038)

Yes. Yeah, and and and you know, Matt, what I keep reflecting on as you're talking about this is I I think about I think about my relationship. You know, for me, I I was I was blessed in that I did not walk into my marriage with a pornography addiction. I was I I had been a year sober two or three times. I was I was sober for a year, I relapsed, sober for a year, relapsed, and then I was

sober and been sober a year by the time I got married. But I still carried so much of the same mentalities that we've been talking about. And I ended up doing a great deal of damage, unfortunately, emotionally. And I will also say sexually too, because I had such a poor relationship with sexuality and I and I didn't know about all that baggage. I thought I've been sober a year. I've got some time under my belt. Back then I thought a year was so long.

this is gonna be great, you know. man, I've really healed so much. And and then, you know, it's seven years into the marriage that I made this realization. my gosh, I still carry so many of these same mentalities and these same habits and thought patterns. And I have done just as you said, the ways that I felt emotionally, I was.

damaged in childhood, both I I would say so in so many ways inadvertently from those around me, as they were also hurt. I ended up carrying those in and doing the same thing to my wife. And that was really shocking for me, realizing that, you know. All these things that you do unconsciously that you don't you don't realize. And what that's been like for for my wife, you know, and just gaining more just in this conversation.

feeling more of that for her and what it's what what that was like for her, you know. And we're still going through that healing process. Right. It's only been, you know, a few years that I've actually made some substantial progress and realizations and there's some significant healing happening. Right. So it it takes a lot, it takes time. It does.

Matt Wenger (35:00.138)

Yeah. And that's the like the bitter pill of recovering from betrayal is that the only thing that is going to help me through this is consistency over time. Like in terms of the relationship. Like I can't trust this person. I don't want to trust this person. So I just need to watch and observe and collect data about what it is that they're doing and how they're doing it and then try to

allow, you know, that consistency over time to to let that trust rebuild. And it's usually about 18 months, you know, after betrayal before someone can start trusting someone again. And trust is very scary and dangerous. But what I tell partners too is that your health cannot be determined by this other person's choices. Like what does it mean to be healthy for me? What does it mean to have healthy detachment from

what it is that they're they're going to choose and to be able to say things like, hey, I don't I'm I deserve better than this. I'm worthy of more than this. My marriage is not going to be defined by you not hurting me. I actually deserve a husband. I actually deserve a spouse. And and sobriety is not going to be enough for me. Okay. I deserve more than that. Sobriety's a really low bar in a relationship. I to be a good partner, I I have to have some like

Emotional presence and empathy and connection and hold holding space for other peoples and other people and all these things. So so I want to empower partners to be able to say things like that and say, hey man, like I'm watching and I can choose for myself what health and happiness and wholeness looks like. And I don't need you to determine that for me. Hey, but I but I'm in and I'm willing to watch and and find healing together. That's what I want.

But if you continue down this road, these are the choices that I will make. And and I and because I am worth that safety. And I am worth you know, the living in a healthy, happy, and whole relationship. And I I've I'm capable of that and I deserve that. And so I try to co I try to coach partners like do not hitch your wagon to his sobriety. That is like oof. That's gonna be really, really so can I learn to care for and value.

Matt Wenger (37:24.214)

and be supported within myself and even this person makes choices that harm me that my worth and value is not tied up in that. And that is

But it's a really hard road to walk. But the only other option is just, you know, being like on the highs and lows with the person and staying on that roller coaster and and that is just that's where you see partners struggling with autoimmune issues and and stress related illnesses and kind of breakdowns in in their their body and their mental health is because

You know, they've just been on that roller coaster and so that healthy detachment is, you know, needed, you know, eventually.

Jake Kastleman (38:11.714)

Yes. And this really feeds into, you know, what I wanna some of the one of the things I wanna ask in behalf of partners, which is we've when we've we've talked about this, we've touched on this, but often I will hear hear partners say something like, you know, once once he's sober, this problem will go away. Right. And we've established that's not the game, right? That like as you said, that's a very low bar, right? And I can't hit you can't hit your wagon to that. But

there's inevit there's this very natural feeling of like he needs to figure himself out and then I will be okay. Right. So what are a few of those steps partners need to take? And you've already talked about kind of a high level or a a a portion of it, but what does that recovery process look like for a partner? Right. And you guys have intensives actually that you do with couples. Right. So I'm sure you do

Many of these things and at those intensives.

Matt Wenger (39:13.762)

We don't have couples intensives per se. We have we have intensives for men and we have intens intensives for partners. Time.

Jake Kastleman (39:20.896)

No, no, that shows my ignorance then. It's w okay, partners and the and those who are struggling to show Okay. Okay, not couples.

Matt Wenger (39:29.922)

Yeah, right now we don't host those. Maybe some down the line w some time we will, but

Jake Kastleman (39:35.758)

What's intense? I mean, would you say that sorry, there's a little bit of a tangent, but doing a couple's retreat, that there's a that's a lot of intense emotion. I mean, is that part of it just being able to work with both individually is maybe less messy? I don't know if that's not a great term, but yeah.

Matt Wenger (39:58.456)

Where we've found like our niche in like the keeling community is for folks that are really struggling to establish sobriety and depth level healing of like, you know, rage, anxiety, anger, depression, like all of the emotional leftovers of addiction that are tied into their trauma, that that maybe they've flirted, you know, with sobriety, but they've never found it consistently because they've never done that that deeper work.

And connect helping them connect to their nervous system and to their story and learn grounding tools. They kind of work the problem from both ends of like, how do I learn more about what's going on with me? And then how do I address like the pressure from the trauma that's that's bubbling up underneath? And we do that really well here. And we try not to be all things to all people because there are other great order organizations that can do some of that coupleship work. But what we can do, what we learn.

Is that betrayed folks need those that same kind of treatment because what they're going through is is trauma too. And so that's that's where the that program has really taken off and been so beautiful is because we kept having partners ask us, like, hey, where where when am I gonna get begin again for partners? 'Cause like I want to go and I wanna do that deep work too. And you know, and we finally just listened to them and said, Okay, we'll just make BAI for partners and how to like

How do we translate this healing model for betrayal? And it was like really simple. And now we have some just beautiful, wonderful, talented, women that lead that program and do just amazing work with the with the folks that come through.

Jake Kastleman (41:46.222)

Love that. That's fantastic. So yeah. So I I took you off on a tangent there. I apologize. This is my own curiosity about kind of your thoughts on that. But yeah, what are so you've already talked about some of the steps. So you're saying for a partner, right, they have to go through some of the same things of learning then emotional regulation, calming the nervous system, how to do that, being able to process through their feelings. That's a portion of this work.

I suppose is what you're saying for partners as well. what are a a couple of the other things that they're working on overall to in their own recovery process?

Matt Wenger (42:24.834)

Well, I think what happens in betrayal out outside of just the PTSD of the experience itself and the way it might ping off of their childhood trauma, it's it's a part of their identity that has become wounded too. trauma has this way of like weighing down our self image. Mm-hmm. Like you're s and this is what I see in couples all the time.

Like I'm trying to keep my head above the water, right? I'm I'm I'm drowning. I'm actively drowning. My the air is my self-image. I need to maintain this understanding of who I am. But I'm being dragged down by these weights and that weights betrayal and the weight is childhood trauma. The weight is all my responsibilities and the kids and my community and my parents who don't know and people that want me to leave.

him and people that you know think I'm crazy for you know that it's somehow my fault, you know, and there's all these things that are weighing down. And and and par betrayed partners ha are losing access to who they understand themselves to be. And they're just trying to keep their head above water. And like over here, this is the addict. And

They've lost their self image too. The way that they would like to be seen and known is being weighed down by the transparency now of their behavior and their addiction and their childhood trauma and their relationships and the stress of losing their relationship or access to their children or whatever it is that's weighing them down. So you got these two drowning people, right? Or and what people want to do is just like help each other.

You know, let's support each other and like what do two drowning people do?

Jake Kastleman (44:22.734)

They grab onto each other. Yell each other down.

Matt Wenger (44:26.978)

Right. They'll d drowning people will like no shame. But like drowning people I used to be I was a lifeguard for summer and you learn this as a lifeguard. Like drowning people will drown you to get air. Like even as you're trying to help them, they will drown you. And unless you can come in with your life preserver, like they're gonna take you under two. And so like what has to happen in both of these scenarios, you know, is we need so

Skilled and attuned, help and someone to dive in with an inner tube, right? Not to be dragged under, but and then what do I do then? Like this is where the lifeguard metaphor kind of falls apart. But what I need to do there is leave them with their own support, their own flotation device. I can be okay. I can keep my head above water. And if I can learn to be okay with all of this hurt and pain.

And betrayal that's happened to me. And I don't need to rescue him. Right? Because that's what happens. Like, like, but some of them will go and say, like, I'm gonna fix you and I'm gonna manage your recovery for you, and I'm gonna shame you into recovery. I'm gonna monitor you into recovery. I'm gonna boundary you into recovery. And man, I have so much compassion for that. Of course you would wanna do that. But you're gonna go under. You're gonna go on with him. He's gonna take you on.

He has to learn to float too. And you have to learn to float. And you deserve to have access to your identity. And so much of that betrayal work is f you know, returning to ourselves. And betrayal pushes us outside of ourselves. And we're doing and saying things that are not who we are. Of course, but isn't that sad? We've like

Not only have we lost our marriage and we've lost, you know, this what w what we thought we had, we're also losing part of ourselves. And so helping betrayed folks come back to their values, come back to their identity, see the worth within themselves that they thought was shattered, you know. Like if if he doesn't love me, if he doesn't treat me this way, then then I must not have value or worth or the way that you know what I mean? So like helping them refin

Matt Wenger (46:52.11)

and rediscover those things for themselves and hey man, I I'm okay. I'm okay over here on my floaty and you gotta get yours floaty, you know, but I can't come over and help you. You gotta solve you're gonna have to fix this on on your own. And and when folks that are in addiction and have not found a way to care and support themselves go and try to help someone out of betrayal without any of the tools that you're talking about, then they're gonna go, they're gonna go under too.

So that's kinda how I conceptualize it.

Jake Kastleman (47:24.846)

I love it. I I love the lifeguard analogy and I also see where you're saying that it breaks down there. But it's it's so it's so well said. And and when you say you're you're gonna have to handle this on your own, right? That's you're going to have to look to these outside resources and get help from again, community groups, therapists, coaches, whatever that looks like for the individual and developing that that support system, right?

Matt Wenger (47:54.648)

It's a hard place to land because eventually, and I if you're a betrayed partner and you're listening to this, like, like please have grace for yourself. Please allow me to have grace for me as I describe this kind of long-term goal. But the long-term goal at the end is to be able to say, I am not going to fix you through hypervigilance. I'm not going to save you through monitoring you. I'm not going to control you into recovery.

I can't boundary you into recovery. Like sobriety is not something that I am powerful enough to create in you. And so I will watch and I will see how valuable this is for you, buddy. And if you continue to hurt me, then I will make choices. But I am not going to do this for you. And I can't live in this hyper-vigilant state. It's not fair and it's not good for me.

to do that. So if you continue it to endanger me, then I'm going to empower myself to make choices that are best for me. Right. And that is a year worth of betrayal recovery before we can arrive at that point. and and and and what a crucible, you know, to to go through to arrive at that sense of self.

Jake Kastleman (49:15.724)

Yeah. Yes. Do you think ki what you've described to some degree and this is that's a simplification, but is kind of an ultimatum that spouses need to come to of either healing needs to happen, like you need to make steps or else I'm going to need to take action to leave this scenario. I can't stay in this place anymore. Would you say that that ultimatum is often often needed?

in these scenarios with addict and and betrayed spouse. Because I also said I also say this because I experienced it in my own marriage when my wife gave me that ultimatum. And I n I know I needed that. So

Matt Wenger (50:03.79)

I think it's I think it's necessary sometimes. Some people call it rock bottom. Some people call it kind of like the fork in the road moment of of look, I'm done. You know, there's partners like I'm done. You can continue to do this if you want, but I'm but I'm done. And I so sad like when we have to get to that point. Yeah. There's so much hope that was lost along the way. There's so much like pain in that in those kind of moments. But to be to to be strong enough in yourself and feel supported enough in yourself to say

Hey, like you gotta go do this for you because I I don't I don't have it anymore. And yeah, but that's sometimes that's that's really necessary. And some guys don't find treatment or recovery until that point. And then everything that they care about and value is on the line. but you know, it for a lot of partners

It's about arriving at the sad reality that there is nothing that I am able to do that can keep this person from hurting if they want to. If they want to. all the travel plans in the world can't keep them from acting out when they travel for work. All of the boundaries around devices and things like can't keep people from acting out if they really want to.

There's so I mean we can create barriers and we can make it inconvenient for people to act out and we should. But that sad realization of like a couple sitting on this couch over here and and the and the partner looking me in the eye and saying, So you're telling me that there's nothing I can do to protect myself if they want to act out truly. And having to like in compassion say, Yeah. Mm hmm. And we really

Wait, what about our boundaries, Matt? What about our boundaries? Like boundaries are bound boundaries are a piece of tape on the floor. They do not have the power to make this other person sober. What they can do for you is tell you when they've crossed the line and tell you how to like whether or not they're building trust and safety with you. Right. And there's there could be consequences or safety for you that you've installed as a response to a broken boundary, but that doesn't keep them from breaking it.

Matt Wenger (52:32.3)

That just tells you where where they stand in their in their journey. So like boundaries are there to help people in recovery build trust, not to protect the betrayed person from harm. They can't do that. It's so like, man, that's so hard. That's so sad. And like there's nothing I can do to keep myself safe. Yeah. And if you want to stay in this healing, like if you want to stay and heal as a couple, then like risk is just

built in and I'm so sorry. That's so unfair, right?

Jake Kastleman (53:06.624)

Yeah. Yeah. And it makes me think of relationships that are really healthy, you know, and people maybe they've grown up in a in a really good home environment with mom and dad who are very dedicated to each other and to the kids and how they honor those boundaries and they keep those boundaries and they it they rarely if ever would would break boundaries. Like they keep the trust and build that trust. And it takes so much diligent effort to do that. But then when we grow up in a home where

boundaries were bent and they were broken and we watched that and we we lived in it and we learned that that's normal or that that's that was kind of our our lives. And then we carry those same patterns into our own marriage, you know.

I know, I know for me, one of the things unfortunately that I that I carried was that a bit of dishonesty was kind of par for the course in any relationship. And that was an unconscious belief that I had that was extremely destructive. That my wife was it just years into our marriage, you know, probably five years in when she realized this was something that I was operating under, which I didn't know I was operating under. She's like, How, how, how?

How can you think about things that way? How can you perceive things? Because in her family, trust was everything, right? And so that was an unconscious belief, an assumption that I had that I needed to really diligently begin to work on and be aware of, and to this day, need to continue to be very aware of when I start to try to bend things or just, you know, stretch the truth a little bit or manipulate. It's whoa, whoa. If I do this.

I'm breaking this boundary, which then is triggering for her to think back years ago and and to feel all of that again. Right. So we need to be so diligent in building and maintaining that trust. And it's not I think I had this perception, you know, that great relationships were just kind of like effortless, like people just happy. And no, it takes it takes a ton of investment and a ton of sacrifice. Yeah. You know?

Jake Kastleman (55:24.995)

Yeah.

Matt Wenger (55:26.145)

And if you're able to like hold

think the the thing that is hardest, I think, about any any relationship is to sit with somebody else in their feelings without taking those as an attack. Like so many even really healthy relationships go through these same issues where someone is feeling a lot of feelings and they're kind of they feel like they're directed at the other spouse and to the other per other spouse to be able to sit with that and hold that space for them without

Taking those emotions as an attack. And what we're always teaching guys here in our program is you know, emotions are not a threat, they're an invitation. Like how can I see the other person's, even their big emotions, as an invitation for connection. And look, when if I'm afraid of your feelings.

Then I'm gonna shave the truth off a little bit. I'm gonna round the edges a little bit. If I'm afraid of your anger and your response or how you might treat me or your whether or not you'll reject me, like okay, I'll leave I'll leave that part out a little bit and you know what they don't know won't won't hurt them and you know, I'm not gonna talk about that. It's just it's just never come up naturally, you know, like you know you never asked me quite that question before. So so it's it's okay. We've just never talked about it, right? And

What that was really saying is I have a discomfort with my emotions. I have a discomfort with your emotions. Yeah. Rather just like like pretend in a way and that's

Jake Kastleman (56:59.662)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (57:05.794)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's very much one of the patterns there is enmeshment, right? I'm taking I'm taking responsibility for the other person's emotions and feeling I need to manage those emotions. I need to ensure that they don't face too much discomfort, which true kindness and trust requires that I

Dive into those uncomfortable zones and express my opinions or views in balance with also being curious about and compassionate towards the other person's views and priorities in their inner world. Right. Which is another holding both sides thing, holding my own emotions and stuff and holding space for theirs too, which I think is very hard for us, especially in the beginning when we didn't grow up doing that.

Right. We didn't grow up in families where we did or where that was required of us, even, I think. A lot

Matt Wenger (58:06.744)

grow up in families where only one person gets to feel and there's only one piece of pizza and somebody's gonna get it and everybody else is gonna go without. So they get into these relationships where only one person can be heard at a time. Only one person can be validated at a time. And they end up getting in these conversations of like, what about how I feel? Well what about how I feel? And it's gonna be

Jake Kastleman (58:32.93)

Now we're comp we're competing. Right. Right. Right.

Matt Wenger (58:35.596)

I I see couples yeah office all the time. They're they're they're playing that game of who the person who validates first loses. Right? Because if I start validating your feelings, then that means I've done something wrong. And so I've not gotta validate your feelings. You're gonna validate mine. And like getting people out of that zero sum thinking where there's always a winner and a loser, it could you know, it's they were they were

Cultivated that way. They grew up in homes that way where only one person got to feel and and and now that they're out of that environment, they still believe that. But they just believe that one person is them now. That's always going to get my feelings validated. And only one person is going to get that on its and it's and it's going to be me. And they're not seeing like a reciprocal relationship with this other person where I give and receive love and value with them. I'm just

getting what I need in a survival sense when in and when it comes to my emotions. The other part of it is when this people pleaser part of it.

Jake Kastleman (59:47.35)

You're right. Yeah. Yes. Which is so paradoxical. Very paradoxical, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, describe that for people who

Matt Wenger (59:52.59)

Because people pleaser will do, and they're not always aware of it. Right. A lot a lot of us are trained people pleasers. Like we've been schooled in the doctoral program of people pleasing. Because we were we've been in the program for twenty years, right? Like I grew up as a people pleaser. Like I'm it was my job to make sure everybody was okay. Right. And so if you're not okay, I'm not okay. And so I'm just gonna make everybody else happy and not

Rock the boat and not bother anybody about what it is that I'm feeling and I'll just be re everyone's emotional butler. Right. So I've been I've been in the training to be a therapist, you know, like my whole life. That's a good point. It's like having a hook for a hand and saying, Well, I guess I'll be a pirate, you know, because it fits, you know.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:37.474)

That's true.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:46.422)

That is amazing. I love it.

Matt Wenger (01:00:48.61)

The the reality is like people, and this is part of my own healing journey, like people that are in that mode of people pleasing, they're they want to see themselves as the savior or as the martyr, but in reality, they're either steeped in resentment that they're they're not getting any of their mean I'm doing all of this for everybody else. And what about what about me? Or their or or entitlement of I've done all this for other people. So

Now I'm gonna go and do all of this for myself in a

Jake Kastleman (01:01:23.618)

And and will you see you will see couples will you often see them just go back and forth on this where one person's saying, Look at everything I do and look at how much I give and then the other side's look at everything do I do and look at how much I give. Right. And they we get into this ping ponging of that enmeshment, people pleasing, no boundaries, just right. That yeah.

Matt Wenger (01:01:46.978)

Just replaying the wounds of what happened to them on repeat. And that cycle is just going to continue unless we can name it and then consciously do something different. Like what I'm always coaching couples to do and like men in early recovery to do is that you're actually gonna get your needs met by showing up in a healthy way for this other person. Not in a transactional sense, like a people pleaser might think. Okay.

Of like, man, I had to take care of my alcoholic parents so 'cause if 'cause if th if I pour all the alcohol down the sink, then they'll be healthy enough to turn and and care for me.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:30.35)

So sad. Yeah. So sad.

Matt Wenger (01:02:33.63)

like if I take care of mom and I can comfort mom, then she'll be okay. And then she can turn and comfort me because I'm sad that dad left too. Yeah. And I'm here holding mom and comforting her. And dad's gone, but dad's left me too. So mom, when you're okay and I've made you okay, you're gonna comfort me, right? Right. And that that that just like over time that turns into this corrosive thing of like went like, all right, now turn around and and take care of me.

Instead, how will two adults in a healthy relationship relate is some somebody shares their feelings with them and then you hear them and you listen and you hold space for that and they soften and they feel seen and they feel heard. And then now they're ready either in that moment or or some other time in the future to to be able to offer that that to you. Right. But it's never gonna work if we score keep and hold resentments around

Who's actually getting their needs met? I I actually, you know, this is what my friend Jake Porter says all the time. Like, you know, the the what's best for the we is what's best for me. Like I really, that is really true. What's best for us is what's best for me. Like what's best for our relationship is what's best for me. And addicts and trauma survivors are not naturally like thinking that way. Like,

I'm the I gotta take care of me. I'm the one that's gotta take care of me if I'm gonna make it. And and it's just like a t a shift in the thinking that that it maybe if I build into this partnership that I'm actually gonna get my needs met too and

Jake Kastleman (01:04:19.97)

Yeah. And that was that was often the environment the the family environment that, you know, a lot of addicts grew up in, right? Was the was that zero sum game that you're talking about. And it was not about us and we. It was about each person, you know, me. How am I going to get mine? And unfortunately, the parents were often doing that in in many ways, right? Or the siblings were doing that, or the ch you know, the the them as a child, right, they weren't

invited into something bigger and like a family community that was knit and serving each other and looking out for each other. It was just roommate syndrome or it was enmeshment like you're talking about or abandonment or were or abuse, right? You talked about hot and cold wounds. Right. So it can go these many different ways.

Matt Wenger (01:05:07.682)

Exhausting, it can be smothering. You know, you know, you talk about enmeshment, like well, it's most often moms that amesh. And if if mom is coming to me with all of her feelings and I'm completely unprepared as a young person, as a child to help her with all of this adult information and all these big feelings, I like what am I supposed to do? Right.

Jake Kastleman (01:05:32.002)

You have no resources. You have no you don't even have the cognitive or emotional capacity at that point to process through any of that or be that for her, right?

Matt Wenger (01:05:41.078)

And and and you try to figure it out. But like now what happens when my this betrayed person is coming to me with all of their big feelings and their emotions. Well, like if I'm not careful, I'm gonna unconsciously go right back to that place where like, your emotions are like so much. And I I do not know what to do with all those feelings. Stop getting all those feelings on me. Can you just like calm down? Can you please move on? Because I am so over

Just like mom and and and you're just like mom right now. And I I'm not saying this out loud, but like

Jake Kastleman (01:06:17.358)

Right. Yeah. Right.

Matt Wenger (01:06:21.396)

And that same feeling of being hopeless, helpless, ca like resourceless, like I don't know what to do. I've never known what to do and I still don't know what to do. Right? And then it just shows up in in the betrayal relationship and and people are surprised that they they freeze up or they get resentful or they get annoyed and just, you know, pick just pack all these emotions up and and put away. Can we just move on? You know.

Jake Kastleman (01:06:51.742)

Yes. Powerfully said. To kind of wrap up here, Matt, and then we'll talk about where people can find you. And obviously we'll put sh links in the show notes. But the last thing I want to touch on is just what have you seen happen for people as they go through this process and as they heal? Where where can they get to? You know, let's say, let's say right now there's a spouse listening who's in the the thick of betrayal. There's an addict listening who's like, Yes, I've wrecked my marriage and I know this.

Where have you seen people get to? What can they hope for?

Matt Wenger (01:07:24.972)

Yeah, like a lot of things in this whole experience, the reality is unfair for the betrayed person. Because the the the road to health and healing, for someone in addiction is pretty straightforward, right? I've got to find sobriety. I've got to discover the deeper authentic parts of myself. I've got to learn to embrace all of my emotions and my story and where that stuff came from. And I gotta live out of that authentic place. It's f not getting my needs met.

Jake Kastleman (01:07:52.43)

Yeah.

Matt Wenger (01:07:55.402)

in healthy ways within myself and in relationship with other men. Like a lot of these things are things that I can control. I can choose. Right. For a betrayed person, like there is so much about the relational healing process that they cannot control and cannot choose. And I c I can't make I can't make that thing that I just described happen.

Jake Kastleman (01:08:07.608)

Yeah.

Matt Wenger (01:08:24.416)

in this person. I can't I can't do that. Right. So

Jake Kastleman (01:08:28.344)

And in fact, in a lot of scenarios, if the spouse tries to step in with that kind of hyper vigilance or controlling, the addict will even go into a rebellious zone and and back off even further and not seek healing even more, right? 'Cause they feel pressured and they dig in their heels. I imagine that's that's the pattern quite a bit of the time is what I've seen.

Matt Wenger (01:08:48.374)

Yeah, and and and that's why I think like the the number one kind of marker for whether or not somebody is gonna find recovery and the relationship is gonna make it is empathy. Can like this person in their own work find empathy for this betrayed person? Can they find connection to their own feelings to draw from enough to connect with this betrayed person's feelings? Like empathy is the thing. And so when I'm trying to help a guy get

To to to find his legs in recovery, like connecting to his own feelings and his own story is the thing that's gonna help him connect to her feelings and her story. And that's where a relationship can find healing is in that empathy piece. And for the betrayed person, I can't make them seek that authentically. I can't make them empathic. You know, I can't make them sign up for a program that they don't really wanna do or pay for, you know. So

The road to healing is is very different. But for the betrayed person, finding and rediscovering that identity and that worth and value and the strength of who you are as a person who's endured and survived and is has is invincible, right? In regard to all this stuff that's happened to you. You've s you've right. Like that's that path to healing where whatever he does or whatever, like I can I can be okay.

But when couples are going on that journey together and they've both surrendered to that process, I found that recovered relationships are amaz and they're beautiful and they're inspiring and they're still hard and they're still challenging and they're still scary. But every relationship kind of is, but but these are more so perhaps

But what they f what they find there in the end is authenticity and connection and vulnerability that most relationships will never achieve. And like it's their addiction recovery that's that's led them to that point. And we we call that kind of the fruit of recovery, right? The bitter tree, you know.

Jake Kastleman (01:11:06.17)

Yeah.

Yes. And I think of it like darkness being converted into light, right? Which is very much this deeply s it's a psychological process, but it's a deeply spiritual process that we go through both as individuals and as as a couple. Right. That what was so dark and so much pain is converted into that much more power and inspiration and and light.

Matt Wenger (01:11:29.334)

Yeah, and it's often like in I only a betrayed person can say this for themselves. Nobody can say it to them. But I've heard this from betrayed folks a lot that like some of their wounding as young people was brought to the surface in the betrayal and was able to find healing. And they'll like they they'll they say things like, I would never wish this on anyone, but I I can see the goodness.

And the grace of this process. And I if I would if I would do it all over again I wouldn't I wouldn't choose it, but I'm but I'm okay with like where we've gotten to now. And that's a f I I'm always so humbled by betrayed folks that that find that. It's like I feel like I'm sitting in the room with a with a a de a profound person, you know, that when

Jake Kastleman (01:12:30.22)

Yeah, that's right. And I and I think when it comes to, you know, either seeing God's will in it, right? For those who are religious or spiritual who believe in God or seeing purpose or meaning in the process, this is something for betrayed partners or betrayed persons who they can go through this incredible growth, right? And that and again, like you say.

It doesn't make it okay or make it like, I can experience growth from this. Great. Well, now I feel so positive about it. That's definitely not the case. But it can reveal a lot of the wounds that they've carried and the things they've carried from childhood and bring those out so that they can do much of their own healing that never would have happened otherwise. doesn't justify any of it or, you know, make it okay. But but it but that's definitely definitely the case.

Matt Wenger (01:13:28.534)

Yeah, I describe it like like you imagine like your home burnt down and that home was filled with with sentimental items and pictures and like tokens of, you know, relationships and special moments and and and betrayals like that house got burnt down and and it feels like I've I've lost all of those things. And betrayal healing

Can sometimes look like going through the burnt down house and feeling the grief and the loss of all of those stones and sorting through the ashes and the charred things to find what I want to keep, what has survived, what is truly beautiful and valuable to me amongst this destruction. And when I able and I'm able to pull.

that objects that survived and that has still has meaning and value and beauty to me. Well, there's something even more beautiful about it because it's survived the fire and it or you know, it's bearing the markings of some chart or ash or burning. You know, there's something more special about it. But what what a lot of folks get out of order is the addict wants to lead that expedition into the burnt down house and say, well, d isn't this valuable? And and we had fun here, right? And

wasn't it wasn't all bad. Do you remember this time and and that time? And wasn't you know, you're you're acting like I was just this terrible person the entire time. And, you know, look, keep and they're pulling out things from the house and saying, keep this, keep keep this, keep this. And you know, the only the betrayed person can decide what they want to keep and what they want to leave. That's so unfair to do that. And, you know, they their experience of betrayal is holistic. It's not

specific like an addict and the things that the addict remembers that they did at certain times. For a betrayed person, it's it's holistic. It's ev the betrayal feels like it's everywhere. It's gotten into everything. And you're over here trying to tell me, you know, it's not all that bad and look at all these things. So so learning to learning to follow her or him and the betrayed person, right? Like follow them like one step behind.

Matt Wenger (01:15:53.122)

Be there with them, one step behind them as they sort through the burnt down house and decide what they want to keep and what they would like to leave behind. And it's a long road. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:16:09.654)

I feel the truth in that. I appreciate you saying that. I think it's a very, a very p profound way to see it for those who are in addiction and trying to, you know, make amends. and then also powerful for the the the partners as well. Well, thank you so much, Matt. If people want to connect with Begin Again, they want to connect with you, I'll put these links in the show notes, but where should they head? And do you have a specific place you want to point them to? What does that look like?

Matt Wenger (01:16:39.522)

Yeah, so begin again institute dot com is where you can learn about all of our programs and all of our intensives and all of our groups and yeah, it's all there on the website. You know, we kind of specialize in two week intensives for men and six day intensives for betrayed partners and we're really proud of those things. We think that we offer the best in the country and turn in those time frames. So

Yeah, come to the website, check it out, give us a call, you know, we'll walk you through the process, yeah, of how to make it work and, you know, address financial things if that's an issue, you know, for you too. So just encourage everybody who felt like this applied to them that's listening to to reach out to us and even if you don't come to see us, we'll help you find the right place for you to land.

Jake Kastleman (01:17:33.302)

Thank you, Matt. You've shared a so much wisdom today and so much value that I think will help a lot of people listening. So I appreciate the conversation. Appreciate you being here.

Matt Wenger (01:17:43.502)

Thanks for having me, Jake.

Jake Kastleman (01:17:47.874)

Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. And if you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Corn.

Or my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome corn addiction. And you can find them at NomorDesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of corn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building.

that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.

Jake Kastleman (01:19:01.26)

Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,

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