How Neurodivergence Shaped My Porn Addiction—and Eventually Became a Strength | Exploring Perfectionism, Emotional Overwhelm, and Why Sensitive, Driven Men Turn to Escape With Ania Hulsman

Do you feel emotion more intensely than the people around you seem to? Do small problems sometimes produce surprisingly large reactions inside you?

Maybe you struggle with anxiety, perfectionism, social discomfort, racing thoughts, hyperfocus, brain fog, or an internal pressure that constantly tells you to move faster and accomplish more.

You may have spent years wondering why life seems harder for you than it appears to be for other people. You might look capable on the outside while privately feeling overwhelmed, restless, ashamed, and desperate for relief.

For many men, this is where neurodivergence and porn addiction begin to intersect.

I want to be careful here. Neurodivergence is a broad term, and this article is not intended to diagnose ADHD, autism, anxiety, depression, or any other clinical condition. In my own life, I identify deeply with high sensitivity, perfectionism, emotional intensity, social anxiety, systems thinking, hyperfocus, and many ADHD-like struggles with motivation and attention.

These traits did not automatically cause my porn addiction. But because I did not understand them, I spent years feeling defective, overstimulated, emotionally unsafe, and unable to manage the pressure inside me. Pornography eventually became one of several ways I tried to escape that internal world.

The same sensitivity, intensity, and drive that once made me vulnerable to addiction have since become some of my greatest strengths. That did not happen because I learned to suppress them. It happened because I learned to understand my mind, regulate my emotions, create healthier boundaries, and build a recovery lifestyle that works with my wiring instead of constantly fighting against it.

Porn Addiction Was Not Just About Sexual Desire

I began using pornography around the age of twelve, but my pattern of escape started much earlier.

Video games had already become a place where I could feel safe and in control. In a video game, I understood the rules. I could advance through levels, master a system, and try again if I failed. I could escape the unpredictability of relationships, difficult emotions, family stress, and the fear of not being good enough.

Food became another source of comfort. Later came pornography, alcohol, marijuana, and other forms of escape. These behaviors looked different, but they were doing similar work for me.

They helped me feel okay.

This is one of the most important things I teach men about pornography addiction recovery: the behavior may be sexual, but the need underneath it often is not. Porn can become a way to manage anxiety, shame, loneliness, boredom, pressure, rejection, emotional overwhelm, or the feeling that you are losing control.

In other words, you may not be turning to pornography because you want sex as much as you want relief.

That does not remove responsibility for our choices. We still need to tell the truth, establish boundaries, repair harm, and learn to lead our desires. But understanding the emotional purpose of pornography allows us to address the actual system beneath the behavior.

The Escape System Beneath Porn Addiction

For sensitive and driven men, the addictive cycle often follows a pattern like this:

Pressure → Emotional overwhelm → Need for control → Escape → Shame → More pressure

You begin the day already carrying high expectations. You believe you should be more productive, more confident, more disciplined, more successful, more emotionally stable, and further ahead in life.

Then something happens. You make a mistake. Your wife is unhappy with you. Work becomes chaotic. You fall behind. You feel rejected, criticized, overstimulated, lonely, or unable to focus.

Because your nervous system is already overloaded, the event feels larger than it might otherwise feel. Your mind begins searching for a way to regain control or escape the pressure. Pornography offers intensity, predictability, fantasy, and immediate relief.

Then the session ends.

The shame arrives. You wonder what is wrong with you. You recommit, demand more of yourself, and create stricter expectations. Those expectations increase the pressure, which eventually activates the cycle again.

This is why more shame and more pressure are rarely the solution to porn addiction. They may actually feed the same emotional environment that makes escape feel necessary.

How Perfectionism Fuels Porn Addiction

Perfectionism can be difficult to recognize because it often looks responsible. A perfectionistic man may work hard, care about quality, notice details, and deeply want to make a difference.

Those qualities can be tremendous strengths. They have served me powerfully as a husband, father, business owner, teacher, and porn recovery coach. I care deeply about the small details of my work and the personal trajectory of every man I coach.

But before I learned to lead my perfectionism, it crushed me.

My internal voice constantly said, “Move faster.” I felt like I should always be accomplishing something. When I could not meet my own expectations, I did not simply conclude that the expectation was unrealistic. I concluded that something must be wrong with me.

This is where perfectionism and porn addiction can become connected. Some men do not use pornography because they are lazy or careless. They use it because they have spent the entire day feeling that nothing they do is enough.

Porn gives them a temporary vacation from performance. There is no task to complete, no standard to reach, no one to impress, and no risk of being evaluated. For a few moments, the pressure stops.

The long-term answer is not to abandon excellence. It is to separate healthy excellence from perfectionistic threat.

Healthy excellence says, “I care about doing this well.”

Perfectionistic threat says, “If I do not do this perfectly, I am inadequate.”

One produces meaningful work. The other makes your worth feel constantly endangered.

Why Sensitive Men Use Porn to Escape Emotional Overwhelm

I felt emotion deeply from a very young age. Small experiences could produce intense reactions inside me. I often felt anxious, volatile, insecure, and overwhelmed, but I did not know how to work with any of it.

I also grew up in a masculine environment where I did not feel that deep emotion had much of a place. I did not identify with the stereotypical boy who loved sports, competition, hunting, and physical activity. I was more sensitive, reflective, and internally intense.

The message I absorbed was simple: do not share deep emotion.

But suppressing emotion does not remove it. It creates pressure. That pressure eventually needs an outlet, and for many men, pornography becomes one of those outlets.

A man who cannot acknowledge his emotions will often act them out. The fear may become control. The sadness may become shut down. The shame may become hiding. The overwhelm may become a craving.

This is why emotional regulation for porn addiction is not a bonus skill. It is central to long-term recovery.

Emotional strength does not mean that you never feel anger, fear, shame, sadness, or sexual desire. It means that you learn to notice these experiences, understand what is happening, and choose your response without being ruled by them.

Stop Treating Your Internal World Like Evidence Against You

For years, I interpreted my struggles as identity statements.

If I took longer than other students to finish a test, I assumed I must be unintelligent. If I struggled to focus, I assumed I was lazy. If I became overwhelmed, I assumed I was weak. If I had an angry thought, I assumed I was an angry or bad person.

Recovery required me to stop identifying with every thought and emotion passing through me.

Your internal world contains many different messages. Some are wise. Some are fearful. Some are protective. Some are angry, impulsive, anxious, or ashamed.

Their presence does not define your character.

A craving is not a command. An angry thought is not an action. Feeling overwhelmed does not make you incapable. Needing quiet does not make you antisocial. Requiring structure does not make you weak.

Instead of saying, “What is wrong with me?” I have learned to ask, “What is happening inside me?”

That small shift moves us from condemnation into curiosity. Curiosity gives us options.

Perhaps your nervous system is overloaded. Perhaps you have not eaten enough. Perhaps you have been staring at screens for six hours. Perhaps you are afraid of disappointing your wife. Perhaps a perfectionistic part of you believes you are falling behind. Perhaps you need rest, movement, connection, prayer, or a clear next step.

When you describe the experience accurately, you can respond to it wisely.

Your Brain May Be Trained, Not Permanently Defined

Modern men live in an environment of constant stimulation. Smartphones, social media, streaming services, video games, news, and sexual content train us to expect novelty and immediate reward.

I began using screens heavily when I was a small child. By the time pornography entered my life, my brain had already learned that intense digital stimulation was one of the fastest ways to escape discomfort and produce relief.

This pattern became deeply trained, but what has been trained can also be retrained.

That does not mean the effects are imaginary or that recovery is easy. The pathways are real. Your brain may have practiced turning toward pornography thousands of times. It makes sense that the response feels automatic.

But your brain continues learning from what you repeatedly do. Every time you recognize a trigger early, put the phone away, regulate your body, tell the truth, contact another man, pray, go outside, or choose connection over consumption, you are strengthening another response.

Porn addiction recovery is not one enormous decision. It is repeated training.

Technology Addiction Can Keep the Pornographic Mind Alive

One of the most meaningful changes I have made recently has been sharply reducing my smartphone use.

I keep my phone in a drawer in my office for much of the day. I have turned off nearly all notifications. I check messages during limited windows, and I have told family members to call me if they need me urgently.

The difference has been profound. I experience more peace, presence, focus, motivation, and connection. I feel less of the frantic internal demand to seek another piece of information or another burst of stimulation.

You may be trying to quit one form of digital overstimulation while carrying another form in your pocket all day.

The smartphone may not be pornography, but it can maintain many characteristics of the addicted mind: novelty seeking, fragmented attention, low tolerance for boredom, constant dopamine seeking, emotional avoidance, and disconnection from the present moment.

This is why boundaries are not punishments for weakness. They are rules that support freedom.

Charge your phone outside the bedroom. Turn off unnecessary notifications. Keep it out of the bathroom. Do not begin the morning with scrolling. Establish technology-free periods. Place the device somewhere physically inconvenient while you work, spend time with family, pray, or rest.

Do not keep your most distracting device constantly available and then shame yourself for struggling to resist it. Guard the gate earlier.

Build a Recovery Lifestyle Around Your Actual Capacity

Many sensitive and neurodivergent men repeatedly push beyond their limits because they believe they should be capable of more.

They attend an overstimulating social event, work in hyperfocus for several days, neglect sleep, absorb constant noise, and then condemn themselves when their motivation collapses.

I know this pattern well.

Hyperfocus can be an extraordinary strength. When I am creating something meaningful, I can become deeply absorbed and accomplish a great deal. But I may also ignore hunger, movement, time, relationships, and fatigue. When the project ends, I can feel drained or depressed.

That post-hyperfocus crash can become a relapse window.

If you know that your brain works this way, recovery requires an exit plan. Decide when you will stop. Eat before you are depleted. Set alarms to stand, move, drink water, or step outside. Plan a lower-stimulation transition after intensive work. Do not move directly from exhaustion into unstructured internet use.

The same principle applies to social and sensory overload. You are not proving strength by ignoring your capacity until you collapse. Mature self-leadership includes recognizing when your system needs quiet, rest, movement, food, solitude, or reconnection.

A Practical Recovery Rhythm for Neurodivergent Men

You do not need to implement twenty new habits at once. In fact, perfectionism can turn recovery itself into another impossible performance.

Begin with a few repeatable practices.

Start the Day Without Digital Stimulation

How you begin the morning creates momentum. When possible, keep the phone away for the first part of the day. Begin with silence, prayer, scripture, breathwork, journaling, movement, or time outside.

Do not surrender the first minutes of your mind to the same devices and stimulation from which you are trying to become free.

Practice Emotional Curiosity

When a craving appears, do not begin by attacking yourself. Pause and ask what state you are trying to leave.

Are you anxious, ashamed, rejected, lonely, tired, angry, bored, or pressured? What do you imagine pornography will give you? Relief? Control? Comfort? Confidence? Intensity?

The craving is a trailhead. Follow it backward and discover where the old story begins.

Regulate Before You React

One of the simplest tools I use is slow breathing. Try inhaling through the nose for four seconds and exhaling slowly for eight seconds. Continue for two minutes.

You are not trying to force the emotion to disappear. You are creating enough steadiness to allow your Leadership Center to come back online so you can choose what happens next.

Care for Your Biology

Pay attention to sleep, nutrition, hydration, exercise, daylight, and movement. I discovered that blood sugar fluctuations and certain foods significantly affected my brain fog, irritability, and focus. Your situation may be different, and nutritional or medical concerns should be discussed with a qualified professional.

The larger principle remains: your recovery happens through a body. Biological depletion can reduce your capacity to make wise decisions.

Replace Consumption With Connection and Creation

Pornography, scrolling, gaming, and constant entertainment are consumptive.

They ask little from us while promising immediate emotional reward.

Recovery requires better pleasure. Create something. Exercise. Build. Serve. Pray. Spend time with your wife and children. Contact a brother. Go outside. Work toward something meaningful.

You are not here merely to consume stimulation. You are here to protect, build, serve, love, and create.

The Traits That Made Me Vulnerable Became Strengths

My sensitivity allows me to sit with men in deep emotional pain without becoming frightened by what they feel. My systems thinking helps me understand the patterns beneath their behavior and build practical recovery plans. My intensity fuels my teaching and creativity. My attention to detail helps me care deeply about the work I provide.

These same traits once contributed to emotional overwhelm, procrastination, anger, control, anxiety, and escape.

The difference is leadership.

I sometimes describe this as carrying fire in your hands. Fire can destroy, but it can also warm, protect, illuminate, and create. The goal is not to extinguish it. The goal is to learn how to carry it.

Brother, the parts of your mind that have caused difficulty may also contain tremendous strength. But strength without direction becomes chaos. Sensitivity without regulation becomes overwhelm. Drive without rest becomes burnout.

Sexual energy without leadership becomes consumption. Perfectionism without compassion becomes shame.

Recovery teaches you to direct what is already inside you toward something better.

Redefining Success in Porn Addiction Recovery

I once measured success largely by productivity, performance, and what I could accomplish.

Today, I think much more about presence.

How present am I with my wife? How present am I with my children? How present am I with my clients, my faith, my body, and the responsibilities God has given me?

A successful recovery day is not necessarily a day without uncomfortable emotions or sexual cravings. It may be a day when the craving appeared and you responded with honesty, prayer, breathing, connection, and courage.

The craving does not erase your progress. Your response reveals it.

Sobriety is not simply the absence of pornography. It is the growing ability to lead yourself when fear, shame, anger, exhaustion, loneliness, and desire arise.

Build a Life You No Longer Need to Escape

Overcoming porn addiction does not require you to spend your life at war with your brain.

It requires understanding what your mind has been trying to accomplish through pornography, taking responsibility for the ways the behavior has harmed you and others, and building healthier ways to meet the needs underneath it.

Learn your triggers. Respect your capacity. Reduce unnecessary stimulation.

Practice emotional regulation. Care for your biology. Build honest relationships. Create strong technology boundaries. Direct your energy toward service, love, purpose, and God.

Your sensitivity may become compassion. Your intensity may become courage. Your perfectionism may become craftsmanship. Your hyperfocus may become creation. Your difficult history may become wisdom you use to help another man.

You do not need to become less alive. You need to become more capable of leading the life within you.

That is the deeper work of pornography addiction recovery. You are not merely trying to stop a behavior. You are becoming a grounded, connected, spiritually aligned man who no longer needs pornography to feel okay.

Check out Ania's podcast: Neurodivergent Unplugged

Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, including my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.

If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Learn more about the Academy.

If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Learn more about working 1-on-1 with Jake Kastleman.

God bless.

Recommended Episodes: ADHD, Dopamine, and Porn Addiction: How to Finally Work With Your Brain Instead of Against It

Why You Can’t “Just Stop”: Porn Addiction, Your Nervous System, and Polyvagal Theory Explained

Why Perfectionism Keeps You Addicted to Porn: The OCD-Like Loop of Escape, Fixation, and Control

Full Transcript of Episode 156: How Neurodivergence Shaped My Porn Addiction—and Eventually Became a Strength | Exploring Perfectionism, Emotional Overwhelm, and Why Sensitive, Driven Men Turn to Escape With Ania Hulsman

Ania Hulsman (00:00.184)

Hi, I'm Anja Horsman, and this is Neurodivergent Unplugged. Messy, magnificent stories from unlikely rebels. I'm a coach who helps neurodivergent humans find their way back to themselves. And as a gloriously neurodivergent human myself, I know that journey from the inside. I spent a solid 40 years thinking I was some kind of cosmic admin error. Intelligent.

And somehow feeling stupid, socially awkward, always dropping the ball, never quite cracking the code on how you're meant to be a person. Which is funny now, but honestly, not so funny at the time. I try to be normal, hiding my quirks, my discomfort, setting ridiculously high standards, and quietly burning out. Until I realized the problem was never me.

I just needed to stop running my life on the wrong operating system. So I set out to build the right one. And here's what I've come to believe. The minds that move the world forward, the leaps in science, art, systems thinking, the ideas that crack the world open and rebuilt it differently, those are rarely neurotypical minds. They're minds like ours. We don't just add to the collective.

We change what the collective is capable of seeing and experiencing. The conversations on this show are where that truth gets to breathe. Real unmasked stories from people who stopped contorting themselves, figured out how they actually work, and started leading from that place that's genuinely and unapologetically theirs. This podcast exists to remind every gloriously unboxable mind how valuable we really are.

We were never wrong. We were just working on a different operating system. If something in these conversations resonates and you're curious about doing this work with support, my chemistry call is 30 minutes and there's no mask required. The link is in the show notes. Let's dive into today's conversation. Welcome Jake Castleman.

Jake Kastleman (02:19.854)

Thank you, Anya. It's so awesome to be here with you. I absolutely loved our conversation on my own podcast. you're just a joy to talk to. You're extremely authentic. You have so many great things to say. and it's awesome to see you again. So thanks for having me.

Ania Hulsman (02:38.542)

I'm so much looking forward to this conversation. Did we reschedule it? I feel like maybe we had to res Do you remember

Jake Kastleman (02:46.574)

No, I think it was only scheduled once this time.

Ania Hulsman (02:49.966)

Okay. Maybe we s rescheduled your your one, your per conversation.

Jake Kastleman (02:54.624)

Yes, we did. We did. Just that one though. So this t this time we actually made it happen, you know? One g one go. So

Ania Hulsman (03:03.822)

So for listeners who don't know you yet, they are in for a treat, how would you describe yourself both personally and professionally, Jake?

Jake Kastleman (03:15.254)

Yeah. So let me start with professionally. So I'm a porn recovery coach. So I help men across the world with porn addiction. And for a lot of people, when they think of overcoming pornography, they're like, okay, so you you help guys stop going online and looking at things that they shouldn't. It goes so far beyond that and so much deeper than that, much like the work that you do, Anya. I'm helping guys build what I call a recovery mindset and lifestyle.

So, how do we build out your life in a way managing emotional regulation, learning how to relate to and respond to cravings, learning how to build daily routines, how do I calm my nervous system? How can I improve things in my relationships? All sorts of things that we do, spiritual practices, right? All sorts of things that we do in order to build that recovery mindset and lifestyle so that my brand is called No More Desire.

Over time, we can lose our desire for porn. So that instead we are finding healthy ways of coping in our lives and finding much more joy and meaning and purpose. And yes, you still have sexual feelings, but now you know how to relate to them and how to to respond to them and actually be able to direct that energy in your life. So for me, I interact with so many men who are neurodivergent.

Right. ADHD, perfectionism, anxiety, social anxiety, depression, right? All these things that they often struggle with that are comorbid with the addiction. For me personally, I experienced so much of that from a very young age. I was very, very anxious, right, as a child. and throughout my teenage years and into my twenties. So I developed

A lot of systems in my life. I'm very much a systems thinker. I was always asking, okay, I have this weakness. I have all these challenges. There's gotta be ways to improve them. And so I've developed a lot of systems in in my life, a lot of routines, a lot of ways to cope in healthier ways. And now I'm bringing that to people. And I really have a passion and a deep love for teaching, a passion, a deep love for helping other people overcome challenges that I've experienced. And

Jake Kastleman (05:34.562)

That's kind of always the way I've just naturally thought is in teaching and systems. And now I get to do that for my my life's career and I just I absolutely love it.

Ania Hulsman (05:45.164)

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's brilliant. Thank you. And because I we've had a lengthy discussion before, I know that this niche that you're currently in, and y you did very briefly mention it there, came through your own experiences, overcoming a porn your own porn addiction. Yes, I see you nodding. Correct.

Jake Kastleman (06:12.972)

Yes, you're like, I hope I'm right on this. Yes. I had that was not the only addiction. There were there were multiple that I struggled with, and it came in correlation with the neurodivergence that we'll talk about.

Ania Hulsman (06:26.55)

Yeah. So what is one what is one or two moments in your life that really shaped who you are today and where you first started to see yourself more clearly?

Jake Kastleman (06:42.786)

Yeah. So for me it's interesting because you you sent you I was thinking on this. I've been thinking about it a lot, actually. and kind of noticing my patterns, my mind a little more distinctly lately. And for me, I was always someone who felt things really, really deeply. I I think when it comes to neurodivergence

What what I identify with most heavily would be like HSP or highly sensitive person, right? Perfectionism. I dealt with so much social anxiety. Blessedly now I've made steps in my life to where I actually enjoy talking with people, but that was not the case for me for for a lot of my life. And so all that deep feeling and all that intensity of emotion that I had,

For me, it always felt like a curse, right? And in my twenties, I started to to recognize it as a as a gift. And my my older sister, who's a huge hero of mine, she once said to me, and this is like so, so, so kind. she said, Jake, you're what I call a power wielder, right? And how I kind of think of that is like,

you carry, I often tell guys, you carry fire in your hands, this intense fire. And it's either you can either direct it to warm the people around you and to create life, right? Or you can not direct it and it'll just burn crap down and create destruction in your life. That's what I spent a fair amount of time doing throughout my teenage years in my early 20s was burning crap down because I didn't know how to direct that.

And so when I started to learn how to direct it,

Ania Hulsman (08:41.442)

Was there something that happened that taught you to direct it? And I'd love if you were like really specific with

Jake Kastleman (08:51.053)

Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (08:51.628)

What exactly was was happening at at that time?

Jake Kastleman (08:56.578)

Good question. So when I was seventeen, that was when my transformation began to happen. So at seventeen years old, I had developed a video game addiction from my childhood. A lot of people wouldn't associate video game addiction and pornography addiction, but they're very much correlated. They have a a a huge connection, which we could get into. and I developed that from four years old.

Video games were were my escape. They were my way to feel okay. They were my place of I didn't know it at the time, but you know, kind of my safe place of control. I hold all the cards, I know what's going on, I can advance levels and I can determine how everything works out. And if I die or I fail, I can just try again and there's no consequences. I respawn. I'm good. And so I really developed a a an addiction to that, right? And I would play for hours a day. And so when I got into

Ania Hulsman (09:43.106)

Respawn.

Jake Kastleman (09:55.502)

You know, for for me, food was big too. It was a big escape. And I know you've talked about your own journey with that. And then when I was twelve, I began to develop an addiction to pornography, right? I went through puberty and that just followed suit from the other ways I was kind of escaping and trying to trying to be okay. That then escalated. It continued to escalate. So I was getting into partying and drinking and drugs and all this stuff and things that I just never imagined I would do.

But it just it felt like I wasn't okay in my life and I didn't know it at the time, but I was just trying to feel okay. And so at seventeen years old, this really reached a a pi a peak and it was only going to go further when for me, I had a a a significant spiritual experience. actually my my mom and dad were so afraid for me, as you can imagine. They were watching all this happen and they're

previously timid, you know, shy but also stalwart son had turned into this addict and they're just watching him just spiral. And so I

Ania Hulsman (11:00.972)

What was what was visible on the outside actually? They were watching how what did they see that made them realise that you were spiralling?

Jake Kastleman (11:09.302)

Ooh, do you want me to talk about the like the worst things that I did? I'll just I'll just address those and people can judge how they may. So when I was 16, I was growing pot plants in my closet. They found them and I tried to lie to them and tell them I was growing daisies for a science project.

Jake Kastleman (11:36.16)

Like in what world I thought my parents were so dumb, I was like, they'll never figure it out. And they were like, You must think we're the dumbest people on planet Earth. Like, are you kidding me right now? We know they're not daisies. Right. So my whole story, is I really

Ania Hulsman (11:52.416)

State where you live, I guess that's illegal.

Jake Kastleman (11:56.006)

Right. At the time it was very much illegal pretty much everywhere. Right. And that was, my gosh, that was twenty years ago essentially now. So so that they they saw that. They knew all this they they really suspected all this stuff was going on. Right. And then in addition, I stole money from them at that time, me and my friend, which was severely disrespectful and incredibly selfish.

just just tossing aside everything they'd done for me my whole life. And it was really just I wanted money to buy stuff for myself, right? Whatever I wanted. And so those two events really drove home for them. Jake's gone to a a place that we never imagined he'd go. Right. And so and they didn't even know the half of it, right, that was going on at that time. Now, in in admitting that

I blessedly, I was not someone who got into hard drugs. I dabbled in some things, but it was mostly marijuana and drinking. And that was that was excessive for me as someone who was so perfectionistic and so driven inside toward quality work and towards like overachieving. The fact that I'd gone that far was insane for me. I was not one who was like,

extremely impulsive, the party lifestyle. More so for me it was I felt so much pressure inside to be perfect and to do everything right. And it just kind of bled out into these things I was doing secretly to try to mitigate that intensity that I felt. And I didn't know that, right? I just I didn't know how to relate to any of that. I didn't understand that at the time. So I have a spiritual experience where my father he starts

Talking to me about gospel concepts. And for me, I found God. I found Christ. And I I felt what all I knew was I felt something that I really wanted more of. And for me at that time, the best way I related to it was I felt more confident. And I really desperately needed that because I had so much social anxiety. And so I began to read scriptures and pray. That was like where my recovery started.

Jake Kastleman (14:12.91)

Right. And as I did that, it started to open up my mind and feeling more awareness of myself, awareness of psychological patterns, awareness and like an ambition growing of who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. I had masked so much of who I was because I thought that's what was expected. You know, I thought I shouldn't care so much. I shouldn't try so hard. Those were two of the primary messages I was living by. And eventually when I got into my twenties later, I

I realized like, look, I like to try. Like I like to do things at high quality. And I will spend two to three times longer on something than someone else will because I want to do it quality. Now I've had to temper some of that in my life and try less hard on some things and let it be enough. But those are those are big things for me. Big things for me. So

Ania Hulsman (15:09.954)

Fascinating.

think being able to connect into something spiritual is such a gift for anyone, whatever that is, for the person. It's such a gift.

Jake Kastleman (15:24.822)

Yeah. And I've and I've found beauty in Buddhism and Taoism and Hinduism and Christianity. I found beauty in all these areas. I love these teachings. And for me, I I've landed in, I grew up in Christianity. So I've landed there. But I also study these other areas. And I just think whatever spiritual practice you can get into, if you make it a dedicated thing that you're doing regularly and you find strength and light in that, it's fantastic, whatever form that comes in.

Ania Hulsman (15:54.228)

actually as a as a coach, I don't remember whether somebody said this to me or whether I figured it out, but people who have a really strong spiritual practice are really easy to coach because they are much they are so moved by their faith that it's e they find easy motivation from that place.

Yeah, so so I I I really think it's such a gift to to have that. I I'm I'm wondering also whilst listening to you, 'cause I've always felt spiritual but I've never I was I was raised Catholic by atheist parents, which was very confusing for me.

Jake Kastleman (16:37.326)

my gosh. I can only imagine how confused.

Ania Hulsman (16:42.778)

Yeah, and and I went to Catholic schools, right? So and the reason why I went to Catholic schools was a strategic choice by probably my mum, because they were better schools in London where I grew up. And so she was like, Okay, well, you know, we've got this Polish thing, you know, we can we can definitely pull the ca Catholic card and get you into that school. But so I would listen to all of these like sermons and

everything with like complete sincerity and then I'd come home and I'd start telling my mum about Jesus. And she'd be like, well, let me tell you something

Jake Kastleman (17:19.82)

Yes.

Ania Hulsman (17:27.626)

I have to laugh. I have to laugh because it was funny. But I've always been attracted to very spiritual books and this whole concept of it sounds really pagan, but like, you know, connecting to nature. I mean, there's there's science now which which backs that up. That you go out, you can if you forest bathe, it directly affects you on a cellular level and it is very healing. I think I heard very recently that.

Like two or three days in nature will give you a good feeling for a whole month. So if you just my gosh one weekend in nature a month, you're you know, you're set up for feeling content and good in yourself. Like

Jake Kastleman (18:03.518)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (18:14.474)

I love that. I

Ania Hulsman (18:15.626)

Everything, right? And totally free.

Jake Kastleman (18:18.23)

Yeah, I don't do I don't do it enough. And I think that's the case for quite a few of us. Do you do it enough? Do you get out once a month and do this? I I know you walk. You walk in the mornings, right? You have your location you walk at, yeah.

Ania Hulsman (18:31.054)

And it's and it's what I did was I I stacked it onto something I was already doing. So I was already dropping my kids off at school. I say my kids, it's just my daughter, my my son, he's twelve almost, and he doesn't want to know me anymore. Not when one when his potenti his friends could be around anyway. And

Jake Kastleman (18:53.058)

Who has a mom these days? Crazy.

Ania Hulsman (18:55.278)

but I drop my daughter off and then there's this beautiful heath just around the corner, literally, you know, it's like one minute cycle there. And then I do 20 to 40 minutes depending on how much time I have. And I love it. I absolutely love it. And I notice that when I don't do it, I become really lethargic and I struggle to focus and I struggle. I so I think it's both

Being in nature, it's the daylight and it's also the movement. Like all three of those things are so powerful for for regulating your nervous system but also your energy. so I I feel really lucky to have that at the moment. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (19:42.614)

And and I think that's one of those things that like our current world, Western world especially, I think has set us up so much to just be indoors all the time, right? We have desk jobs. we also partake in technology that's inside, right? We're inside so much and how much that's impacted our brains, our mental health, and how much getting outside, like you're saying, if I can just improve my mood.

You know, things like focus or motivation for those of us who deal with, you know, ADHD and those types of things, or, you know, anxiety, depression. If I can just get outside and improve my mood 10%, like 10% or even 20, maybe, you know, on a good day, it's like, man, I just feel so much better being outside. That's a big deal, right?

Ania Hulsman (20:33.336)

Big deal. And I I was saying to you at the beginning before we saw press record, we have unusually hot weather. If anyone's watching the video, I am glowing, as they say. But it also I mean, it's it's the kind of place which gets wet and cold as well. And I almost, almost enjoy those w walks.

more than on a beautiful sunny day with clear blue skies. There's something about being out in the rain that I just find I don't even know what the right word to describe it is. Maybe I just find it funny and joyful because it's so the opposite of what you're meant to do. You're meant to hide from the rain. but I I you know, I I'm obviously wearing a raincoat and actually I have rain trousers even.

Jake Kastleman (21:30.71)

Because

Ania Hulsman (21:31.83)

Because we live I live in the Netherlands and we cycle and if you don't have rain trousers you get very wet. A raincoat is not enough.

Jake Kastleman (21:38.498)

Yes.

I I can only imagine that's it's very, very wet out there. And yeah, I don't but here we're we're in a desert. So I'm in Utah and we actually had a a fire, pretty big one recently, but only about thirty minutes north of us. And so it was just smoke in the air for like four or five days, ash falling from the sky. It's like Armageddon is here, we're all gonna die. It wasn't that bad, but but for me,

And for everybody here actually are, you know, like how much that impacted kind of mood and stuff. And I any any time that I start to experience like a lapse in focus or motivation, I go straight I can go straight into self-judgment, straight into that perfectionistic voice. What's wrong with me? Why am I facing this right now? Why am I not on top of things? I should be feeling better. And I need it, I need to like really just sit down and breathe and like.

I go into parts work. I don't know if it's something you use, if you ever use IFS stuff with your for yourself or clients, but do you know what it is or you've

Ania Hulsman (22:47.598)

I I am vaguely familiar, but it's not specific, one of specific in one of my tools. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (22:53.418)

In in a lot of ways it's it's like emotional mindfulness, but just kind of speaking with emotions as if they're like little people, right? You're just kind of talking with them and kind of hearing what they're saying and just just getting in touch with that and just giving it a voice rather than getting stuff stuck in this self-judgment. So I can actually hear that judgmental part of me and be like, okay, like what's going on for you? Like why are you?

judging me so harshly. And it's like, well, this, this, and that. And you should be doing all these things. We have to move faster. That's the c then a constant kind of a constant voice throughout my life is move faster, which which has improved a lot actually over the last several months.

Ania Hulsman (23:35.156)

Are you naturally fast or slow?

Jake Kastleman (23:39.628)

Depends, what am I doing? So when it comes to like content creation and about something I'm passionate about, I move very, very quickly. But if it's something physical, I have a much harder time with that. I'm far more methodical. In fact, when I was eighteen, I started working at a fast food restaurant and they fired me after two days because I was so freaking slow.

Ania Hulsman (24:08.665)

Sorry.

Jake Kastleman (24:09.23)

The owner told me, she said, Jake, you're just not quick enough for this job. Maybe you could do something more slow paced, like being a caddy. That's what she told me. Maybe you could be a caddy, a golf caddy. I don't know. In her mind, those were the two options. Either I could work in a restaurant or be a golf caddy. So for me at that time, I was like, gosh, like throughout my life, I often felt slow, right? And I actually didn't realize

I talk about the content creation now, but it was not always that way. I would get in my head about things. I would freeze up. It took me forever to finish things. In fact, in school, I was always when I would take tests, I was either the last person to finish or like second to last. And that was constant. And I got this message in my head, like, I must be dumb. I must be really, really slow. And that's the message I carried for so long. Yeah. But later in my life,

I changed my diet significantly and that really I had brain fog all the time.

Ania Hulsman (25:14.796)

What was it that you needed to remove? Was it sugar or was it gluten or sugar mainly?

Jake Kastleman (25:21.422)

Sugar was huge for me. So I have I'm very sensitive to blood sugar fluctuations. And so I can eat a pretty small amount of sugar and start to experience within you know, 15, 20 minutes, I start to experience brain fog. I feel kind of irritable, feel kind of tense. I can't really think clearly. And that's just how my whole life was, Anya. Of ch childhood, teenage years, my twenties, I just

always felt like that. And I was like, I don't know. Other people seem to be able to do all these things. I just can't. And when I when I got onto a paleo diet, and I don't I still eat beans and I eat things like that that process better in the body, but that just transformed my life. Really, really did.

Ania Hulsman (26:10.946)

Makes so much sense. We could go on so many different tangents here.

Jake Kastleman (26:17.186)

Right? Yes.

Ania Hulsman (26:20.59)

one of the things I was thinking was that's that I do do that work. The the parts work, but I just don't call it that. It's w w work with the idea of the captain on the crew or the saboteurs or the gremlins.

Jake Kastleman (26:37.838)

yeah, so like same same thing. Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (26:40.672)

No, exactly. It's it's really, really useful work to do.

Jake Kastleman (26:44.856)

I cause I think like for me, I've I've moved more lately into just purely, purely emotional mindfulness and not so specifically the parts where but it's helped me so much to stop identifying with my emotions and thoughts and just being like, this is my internal environment, and there's all sorts of weird, crazy stuff that goes on. Cause I used to just judge myself so harshly when I'd think like angry thoughts and stuff like what's wrong with me? I'm gosh, I'm such an angry person, I'm so rude, right?

And now it's just the angry thoughts can come up and it's like, Yeah, like this is like part of being human. It's okay for this to be here and I'm gonna I'm gonna get in relationship to it, right? And get to know what's going on, you know.

Ania Hulsman (27:26.38)

Yeah. Yeah. Also the perfectionism s part of your story really resonates with me. And that's something that I I r have been really working on a lot on myself over the last year specifically. well, for for many years, but last year I feel like it's been I I'm finally beginning to see myself.

And and and I noticed that people react to me differently as a result. I used to basically make myself smaller. I didn't want to draw any attention to myself, in case I was found out right or I did something wrong, right? So I was extremely self conscious and where was I going with that? Perfectionism.

And interesting, you were talking about the alcohol. So you would drink alcohol and and that was your release. Yes. I I I remember getting drunk when I was seventeen. It was this girl, Rebecca. it was her seventeenth birthday party and we were at her house and we were like so grown up 'cause we had a dinner party at someone's house, you know, and we had wine.

Jake Kastleman (28:43.598)

Wow. You guys were so grown up. You're so mature back then. How did how did you get to that point?

Ania Hulsman (28:50.038)

And I and I ended up drinking, I don't know how much I drank. It may have only been two glasses of wine, right? But I was drunk and I started crying and I couldn't stop. I literally ended up gr crying for the entire evening to the point where my friends called my mum to pick me up and take me home because they couldn't get me to stop crying. And I was mortally embarrassed, but I couldn't stop.

It was like everything started coming out and and as a result, I have I actually never became a big drinker because I I was a little bit afraid of losing control. Which also ties into the perfectionism.

Jake Kastleman (29:37.548)

Yes. absolutely. I know for me the th was so when I when I was drink I was drinking in my college years, my freshman year, that was the heaviest drinking phase. And I remember I blacked out, not like not like fainted, but I don't I didn't remember what happened. And I remember people telling me about stuff I said and I was absolutely mortified and goes right into that.

kind of sense of control. Like I didn't have control over what people thought about me and how I appeared. And I was just living in this constant performance mindset, which can obviously come up for me now too in different ways, right? But has become much better. And so for me, when people would say things like, yeah, like I love just like, well, to use the phrase getting shit faced and just like losing your mind and just forgetting everything that happened. Like people

People would say, like, that's fun. And be that's not fun. That's terrifying. That's absolutely terrifying. I've always had that sense of like, I want to have that control. And so I've had to let go of some of that, but it's also been a superpower in that in creating systems in my life and creating ways to improve my well-being. And like I have these really high expectations. So to some degree.

How can I meet those? And that so sounds so unhealthy, but how can I meet some of those? And then also how can I be self-aware and like let go of some other things I don't need to have such high expectations on? But when it comes to creating a business, for instance, like that's been a huge it's been a huge benefit to me because then I really care about the little details and I really care about

how eat how each client's trajectory is going and like things that I can help them with and like seeing the small things and putting together the puzzle pieces. That's been so good for me. But again, in the past, like I just felt all the pressure, but could not, could not meet that pressure. So it was it w it just it just crushed me really and just yeah. I I failed to start. I failed to launch on so many things or ever even try, you know.

Ania Hulsman (31:49.676)

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people are gonna resonate with that. When did you first notice that your brain worked differently? And can you sh share a specific moment when this became obvious to you?

Jake Kastleman (32:06.082)

Yes.

So I think as a you're talking about a specific moment. Now that might be hard to nail down, but but

Ania Hulsman (32:22.102)

As close as you can get to specific.

Jake Kastleman (32:24.558)

Yes.

Ania Hulsman (32:27.288)

Can let go of the perfectionism here. It doesn't have to

Jake Kastleman (32:30.254)

But it might be, it might need to be perfect though. No, I'm just kidding. so for for me, as a again as a teenager, like as a kid, just with how intense my emotions were, I cared a lot about details. I cared a lot. I think I I carried a lot of this massive weight of like I have to make a difference in the world and I have to impact people for the better.

And all of that. Ooh, good question. I've thought a lot about that. I don't I don't really know, Anya, to be, to be honest. I just always felt that way. I think that when I when I contemplate it, and I've looked back a lot on this, there was there were some painful dynamics in my family in just

Ania Hulsman (33:01.134)

Do you know what?

Jake Kastleman (33:29.12)

some of my siblings that were having a really, really difficult time. my parents trying to manage that to navigate that. Me as a tiny four-year-old, us moving from California to Utah was really, really hard for my older siblings. And it was really hard for me, but I didn't know that. And I I think I carried this weight of like everyone in my household is stressed out.

This is public knowledge, but my my father dealt with a pornography addiction. He's now sober and has been for years. And he does the work that I do only as a as a therapist and I do it as a coach. So proud of him. He's amazing. He's been an incredible mentor for me. But he was dealing with that. My mother was dealing with the betrayal of that. They were in massive financial distress. And then all my siblings had lost all their friends and moved to this new place. And so I think as a four-year-old,

I felt this huge weight of like everybody is unhappy and there's nothing I can do about it. And so I just I didn't know how to handle any of that. And I I think that I think some of that may come from that of like feeling like I've got to I've got to help people. and then very easily the dis the the insecurity can come up.

But I can't and there's nothing I can do. And so what has happened in my work is is being able to bring in that kind of core motive of helping others overcome suffering. Makes sense. And I and I always carried like I just I want to help people with their brains. I literally I swear to you, from the time I was like twelve years old, I was like, I had a dream. I'm gonna help people with their brains. Right. And that's

Ania Hulsman (35:21.422)

And going back to the original question, which I completely segued us off, which was I take responsibility for that. around noticing that your brain works differently. So you said that you always wanted to have a positive impact. And I'll let you continue your story from where I enjoyed.

Jake Kastleman (35:26.805)

Eight.

Jake Kastleman (35:46.776)

Yes. So I think for me, you know, a message I got was, you know, I had four brothers and one sister, right? It's just very masculine home. And I gathered I've I've never been the typical kind of masculine, like play sports and like eat or cook meat and like go hunting. That's never ever been me. And I could never relate to those.

Boys and boys that are just there physical and they just wanna like they just want to compete and play sports. And I I I never felt that way. And I always just felt like something must be wrong with me. Like I must be just weird. And I I gathered, I gathered implicitly, don't share deep emotion. Don't share deep emotion. And so that's what I got into in just suppressing what I felt. Yeah. Right. In childhood and teenage years.

Ania Hulsman (36:45.164)

Because you did have a lot of emotions, right? You you had

Jake Kastleman (36:48.984)

So so so much. And that and for me, it's for for me when it comes to my strengths, deep deep thinking and deep feeling, again, that kind of high sensitivity, it can be the greatest curse of all time because like small things can just completely overwhelm you. Right. I've I've experienced that way more times than I can count, just all through my li all throughout my life. It's like, why is this tiny thing upsetting me so severely?

Ania Hulsman (36:51.064)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (37:15.83)

And so I needed to learn how to emotionally regulate and just to meet myself in that intense emotion and be like, it's okay that this feels incredibly upsetting for me. It's also a super power for me because when people like I revel in and love meeting people in deep, deep difficult emotions. Like I and for s others, they're like, That sounds like hell. Why would you want to do that? And it's

For me, it's it's where I live, like it's what I love to do. Yeah. And so I I reel I realized later in life, sometime in my twenties, this is actually a really, really positive thing. And this is this is a way that I can help people. It's good that I feel deep emotion. But I think especially in high school and middle sch middle school, it was just like no one wanted to hear about any of that, or at least not the people I hung out with. Yeah. And I really

I tried to fit into areas where I didn't belong and I think I would have been much better off like hanging out with the drama kids or the debate kids or kind of more of the artsy types and deep feeling types. And I just didn't know that about myself. You know.

Ania Hulsman (38:26.518)

Yeah. So interesting. Thank you for sharing that.

Ania Hulsman (38:36.536)

So my next question is so often neurodivergent people are misunderstood. And I'm curious whether you remember a time when you were misunderstood, underestimated, and then when and and whether there was a moment where you realized actually that wasn't a flaw in you, that that thing that

other people put on you that that it was your strength. So you've you've talked a lot about your, you know, being in tune, feeling a lot, in tune with emotions. I don't know whether you you d I don't think you actually said that now, but in feeling a lot of emotions and enjoying holding space for emotions, especially later on. going back was a a moment

Where you r remember that th that mismatch with somebody else and then realizing actually I it's I'm not wrong here. A clear question or

Jake Kastleman (39:43.852)

Right. I think it's a great I think it's a great question. I think it's a great question. And I will discuss both the the strength and weakness as well though of of of this thing that I'm thinking of. And that's when you ask that question, I think of every place that I ever worked, honestly. I I think that I often had two expectations, which one was I wanted to move faster than everybody else. And I'm not saying that I was

you know, always a top performer, which I did I did do well at the places that I worked, but I had a I had an impatience, right, with with wanting to move at a faster pace than most other people. And people would just look at me and be like, You're an employee. Like, why do you care so much? Why do you want to move at this fast? Like, who cares? You're getting your hourly pay or you're getting your salary. Just like do a decent job and don't worry about it. And I couldn't help

But always be like, we could do this more efficiently, we could do that more efficiently, this could be done differently. And and that everywhere I went, that was always a point of conflict. And the weakness in that is I had a hard time fitting in to kind of as a cog in the clock. I always to my to both to my strength and also to my detriment though within the workforce, I always wanted to lead. Like I always wanted to be the change maker or the

You know, the mover or the shaker. I wanted to change things. And people were like, stay in your lane. Like, don't just like do your job and stop trying to get involved in these things. And so I had a I had a really hard time with that. And so what was a weakness, a strength in ways, and that I would take initiative and I did do things that were helpful and made changes, but but more so it became such a strength when I started my own business. And I always knew I wanted to do that.

I was very, very terrified of doing that. And so I allowed procrastination to get in the way for a very long time. But then once I could be my own boss, I could have my I could move at the pace I wanted to move. But if I wanted to, you know, pivot on a dime and I'm like, I'm bored of doing it this way, I'm gonna do it this way instead. I could do that. And I've done that constantly during my business, right? This isn't working well, or this could be done more efficiently. So I'm gonna change it today and I'm gonna work on it for the next four hours and I'm just gonna get it done and then I'm gonna do it differently. Where

Jake Kastleman (42:06.08)

I felt all that motivation and all that fire at places that I worked. And it just often led to me being like, Let's change this or let's make this better. And people being like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, let's not just just stop. Just stop. You're trying to move too fast and you're you're thinking of things just aren't yours, you know. And I that's just the way that my mind worked.

Ania Hulsman (42:27.572)

I hear this story so much. So much. I've got an interview set up with a guy who worked for Merrill Lynch, the bank. he was like twenty eight years old or something, freshly out of the army. And he saw that they were they had this really inefficient card system. I don't remember the details of it. But basically when

They needed a card, it would take fifteen minutes to go. You know, you get to get up off your chair, go to the place where all these cards were. This is all like manual days, right? Find the card in the right category, pull it out, go back to your seat, and then, you know, d do the thing. and and he was ups I this this sh this story will be shared on my podcast. I don't know why I'm telling it a ahead of time, but but it's such a great story. He he he he was like

Like the age of computers is here. I think this was in the late eighties or early nineties. And he was like, Like, we need to digitize all of this. So he wrote this lengthy proposal, sent it off to someone very high up, and then they called him and went, We need to talk about this and and did that and and saved the business millions 'cause that was fifteen minutes times X many times, right?

So it's yeah, it's such a it's such a great story, but I and I think it's a really common story where where in your mind you're looking at the way people are doing things and a lot of people won't question. I I dare to say neurotypical minds will just toe the line and just do what's what's being done. Whereas when your brain is working in the sort of systems level, you you're like you see what's happening like

Does not make sense. It's inefficient.

Jake Kastleman (44:20.706)

You cannot help I could not like I tried to turn it off so much, Anya. I tried to turn that off, especially when the last job I ever had before my business launched full time, I I had I I think I would and again, this is hard in ways for me to say, but I'll just be vulnerable. I think I got into I would always get into conflicts with management. And it w and that's not to say I was

you know, being aggressive or yelling or anything like this. It's just there were disagreements. And I often just felt like, why can't we change this or why can't we do this differently? Or why can't we talk about a a different way to to to manage this? Right. And so I was I was really determined just to like be that cog in the clock and just not think about it. And I was actively just trying to like suppress and just kill that fire inside of me because I was like, this is what I have to do. And fortunately enough

it was the biggest blessing of my life. I got laid off with 30 other people because the company was not doing well. And I right. Exactly. If they would have just listened to me, everything would have been fine. so so for me, I'd been building my business for I think by that point, it was maybe like a year and a half. I'd been working on it. And so I got I had enough clients actually that we were making some income and it built from there.

Ania Hulsman (45:26.238)

Because they weren't listening to you.

Jake Kastleman (45:48.096)

And it it being laid off while it was absolutely terrifying, it gave me the time to invest more in the business. And then it actually took off and become became my full time gig. I did not think of it as a blessing at the time. It was absolutely terrifying, but it became a blessing.

Ania Hulsman (46:03.894)

Yeah. Agreed. So many blessings in life where you know, something happens to you or like I've heard it called a big shitty gift, you know, something happens and you're not at all happy about it. Love that. Happened to me so many times. But today's podcast is not about me, it's about you. So I'm gonna focus refocus back onto you. So I love this next question. We kind of touched on it

I think a little bit before we started recording. This is about professionalism. And masking, right? So there's this Love this question actually. Yeah, there's this idea that in order to be professional, you have to show up in a certain way, you have to dress a certain way, hair, face a certain way, you know. you need to speak a certain way.

Jake Kastleman (46:42.479)

yes, I

Ania Hulsman (47:01.294)

and only share certain things that's appropriate, right? But it's for a neurodivergent mind that can cost so much and actually be really cause a lot of stress and lead to eventual burnout. What's been your experience with that and and and how is it for you today in your business?

Jake Kastleman (47:08.642)

Right.

Jake Kastleman (47:28.174)

My gosh. Okay. I love, I love that you ask this because I'm actually thinking of so many conversations that I had with my wife over the years when I would work for, you know, a few different few different businesses. And she would say, Jake, like, why can't you just say what they want you to say? Why can't you just put on the mask? Why can't you just just perform? Just do it for

You're there for eight hours and then you can let go later. Yeah. That that has I I swear to you, I do not have that ability. It's what I feel like in so many ways. Now I'm exaggerating to some degree, but it's always felt for me like I am who I am in my personal life and my professional life. Like

If I want to be a certain way in my professional life, I need to become that person overall. I can't wear this mask. And so for me, it's it is so much better for me. like if I am inside not feeling good feelings towards someone, I need to do internal work to like.

process through like what am I feeling? Why am I feeling that? Why am I judging them? What's going on inside of me and do some of that deeper work so I can forgive them or I can figure out my stuff so that then when I can show up I can be genuinely good to them. Because if I don't do that, like they people will know because when I speak to them, they will they will be like, you don't like me and I can obviously sense that. And same thing in the professional realm, I needed to I needed to I

For me, I want to show up as as who I am and bring the passion, bring the fire, bring the care, like bring the the joy and the enthusiasm to the work. Because being more being like ultra professional or like stuffy, it feels absolutely suffocating and completely exhausting. And it feels essentially impossible. And so with my clients and the people that I work with, it's like,

Jake Kastleman (49:38.626)

I express things in ways that be far less professional than you would think traditionally, where it's like, I'm so excited for you, bro. Like this is so awesome and I'm so happy for you. I love that you're having the success, or you know, expressing things just authentically and using my joy and optimism to my advantage. And I get to do that in the work that I do now. Yeah. Where in the professional or corporate sphere, that's

not really welcome a lot of times. It's it's you ha again, you have to put on that mask. You have to appear a certain way. Yeah. I have never been that way. And I I honestly I often had like in business meetings for things like that, I would say things and I would realize later like, that like broke the status quo or that didn't look quite right. And that was constant for me. People would just they just kind of look at me like, why are you not like

Playing the game. Like why are you not doing the thing? You know you just gotta just just play the game, right? It just never felt I never felt possible.

Ania Hulsman (50:42.324)

Torture, yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for your answer. Okay. we talked a little bit about your strengths that you're a very deep feeling people person blub you're a very deep feeling person and that you love like intensity and you love holding space for the difficult conversations and experiences. Am I getting that right so far?

Jake Kastleman (51:11.512)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean I'd say I'd say so, yeah.

Ania Hulsman (51:14.604)

Yeah, and then you also talked about your systems thinking. are there any other strengths that you possess that you have that make you you?

Jake Kastleman (51:28.28)

Hmm. Yeah, good question. I think I think when I when I see a problem, I automatically go into again, it's it is that systems thinking that you're talking about. if I see a problem, I start asking, okay, well, how can that be improved? And for me, the primary place that happens is in our our well being, emotional well being, mental well being, physical well being. I've always asked those questions, okay, this thing is going.

wrong with my brain. Like it's not feeling good for me. So there there must be answers that I just don't know about yet. And I'm going explore that. Right. That's just always been the way that my mind's function. Now that can work, that can be a curse sometimes too, because it's like some things, they're just really, really hard. And you just kind of got to accept like, yeah, it's not what I want. And I I have a hard time with that acceptance of like, this is not what I want. It's like I always want to optimize. I always want to

make things better and change things. so that's that problem solving ability is is a huge blessing and a huge strength. I think see being detail oriented, seeing the little small details. Again, in my earlier years of life that was absolutely suffocating in a lot of ways because it just was just too much pressure. And so I've had to learn how to how to balance that.

Right. The perfectionism and and be aware when it's like, okay, I can stop here. This is enough and I don't need to go any further. But when I get out of sync and not in self awareness and I'll just keep going on something and f you know, five hours later I'll realize I've been working on this thing for five hours that is really not that important and I've totally wasted time. So I I really try to be aware of those things, but the detail orientation is is is a blessing too.

Ania Hulsman (53:27.054)

Do you do do you do hyper focus? Do you get like so s focused that you forget the rest of the world exists?

Jake Kastleman (53:30.415)

my god.

Jake Kastleman (53:34.894)

A hundred percent. Especially when I when I create content, I I launch into that zone and I love that ability. I thought that that was something that everybody had, right? But that's not that's not the case. That's not the case. And so but then it's just like

Ania Hulsman (53:52.43)

How how other how people who don't have that actually get stuff done. Like it feels like I love that space, you know, and I can go for hours and hours and hours and you know, maybe i it is important to take breaks and drink and that kind of stuff. But but like I I find it so productive and I really it really makes me wonder what that must be like if you don't have that. Have you ever wondered

Jake Kastleman (54:18.058)

Yes, I have. I have wondered what it would be like to be a more even keeled, more balanced person with a higher level of peace in their lives. Yeah. I

Ania Hulsman (54:28.098)

I don't see myself not even k not as not even killed. I just think that, you know, I I even might in a different way.

Jake Kastleman (54:37.294)

Can I talk can I talk about this actually? This is huge. We talked about this on my podcast a little bit ago. and I really want to share this because I think it will be meaningful for a lot of people. I have not felt that throughout my life, right? That sense of peace and that just well-being in the simple things. And I've always felt this drive to go, go, go, go, go. And this has shifted significantly for me over the last several months.

And that change has come primarily by getting off of my smartphone. And we talked about this. I told you I got a dumb phone, right? Yes. The dumb phone thing didn't work out, unfortunately, because turns out the technology was crappy and I couldn't even like hold a conversation with someone on the phone. The reception was so bad. I don't know what that's about. It's just a bad phone, I guess. That didn't work out, but h however, my systems I set up.

With sticking my smartphone in my the drawer of my office and keeping it there pretty much exclusively, other than a couple of times I bring it out like morning and evening for like I'll read scripture on it while I'm at the gym on the elliptical and I will like check text messages, right? And I've just let family members know I'll only check text messages like in the morning once and in the evening once. If you need me more quickly, like just give me a call, right?

A lot of us feel like we can't do that. I felt like I couldn't and I'm been I've been doing it. It's been amazing. I I did what you suggested actually, Anya. So you inspired me in this. I turned off all my notifications so nothing comes through. I find myself like just feeling so much more of that peace and that presence and that ease in my life. I think for me, I grew up as a technology kid, right? I was on video games, I was watching TV for hours per day. I went up

Ania Hulsman (56:30.552)

Did you get your first screen?

Jake Kastleman (56:34.183)

man. Well that was mine? Well

Ania Hulsman (56:38.39)

That you have easier access to.

Jake Kastleman (56:40.5)

Yeah, four years old. Wow. It was I yeah, I was playing for probably I'd guess two to three hours a day by the time I was like five. Right. And and so we know so much more about what that does to dopamine levels now. But I just struggled for dopamine. Like between the video games to the TV and then all the other stuff I did later, my dopamine was so sapped. And so I just felt this total lack of motivation and direction and connection to other people and

And that converted into ADHD symptoms, right? I don't think I I don't know that I inherently have ADHD, but I definitely developed all of that in my life and I know what that feels like to not be able to focus and not feel motivated, you know, for all sorts of things. And so coming off of the smartphone, I just realized, you know, over the last it was probably nine months ago when I I recognized like I have always had this connection to technology and I had improved it a lot.

But I've I decided to fast from T V for six months. That was huge for me. And this led me to say, well, what about this smartphone stuff? And making all these changes and just minimizing it as much as humanly possible has improved in such a short time. Like it's only been two months since I got to this really pretty extreme place with minimization with it. It's helped me so much.

Just so many of the mental health issues and things that I've I've had have ev have improved s significantly. That's really blown me away.

Ania Hulsman (58:14.444)

Yeah. I hope what you just shared inspires some people to have a second think about the way they use technology because it does it does have a huge impact. I have also a lot of structure around that. I charge my phone downstairs. I don't pick it up until I think probably a good hour after I wake. And actually I I I don't really use it for several hours and I often I have all of my notifications switched off.

And I often just lose my phone because I'm not on it, you know? Mm-hmm. So Yeah. So good. I should probably have a drawer, a place to put it. But I you know, I pick it up and then I and then there are days obviously when I do pick it up more and then I feel more chaotic and I feel like my my brain is like really all over the place and I and I'm I'm I can f I s notice myself seeking, you know, seeking a dopamine hit. And at that point I realise like the best thing I can do is just

Jake Kastleman (58:47.48)

So good.

Ania Hulsman (59:12.718)

Step away from it and take some deep breaths and have some quiet no input time or like maybe a book as the sort of maximum amount of input. And that does help me quite my quiet in my mind, definitely.

Jake Kastleman (59:30.328)

When you go into that zone, you literally feel like the best thing to do is to become more busy and do more, right? It's I'll just stay in this zone and you need the silence and it Yeah, you don't need the Yeah. So many of us just don't anticipate how much of a how much of a a thing that is. So

Ania Hulsman (59:48.13)

How do you dis define success today versus what you used to how you used to define success and can you share a recent moment when you felt successful in that way?

Jake Kastleman (01:00:07.938)

Yeah. I think that for me, obvious things come up as as far as how I show up as a husband, how I show up as a father, those are are huge and those have come into much greater focus for me over the last year, especially. this world teaches us that work is most important in a lot of ways in the Western world, and I don't think that's true. I think if

There's not happiness in the home. Like there's just not happiness. And so that's huge for me. How am I showing up there? And then how am I showing up as a coach? But for me, from a fundamental level of of my success personally, I think emotional regulation is a big part of that. How am I, again, I I often use the words, how am I relating to and responding to emotions? So things like, you know, cravings.

They show up and we can get cravings for all sorts of stuff, right? Primarily with the the men that I work with. It's sexual cravings, it's cravings for porner masturbation. How do I respond to things like that that come up? How am I responding to anger? How am I responding to, you know, feelings of fear or feelings of shame? That needs to come before everything else. Like I think it's easy to get into, well, I don't have time to deal with this emotion or I don't have time to

regulate or do what I need to do, you know, to breathe or to calm down because I have too much to do. And I what I have found is it's not about how like we often feel like, again, time. I need to use, I need to optimize time. And it's not about optimizing time for me. It's about optimizing my focus and my presence. How present am I in what I'm doing each day? How present am I for my kids?

from my wife, how present am I in my, you know, when I'm out at social events, how present am I for my clients? That's I don't think time is our most valuable resource. I think presence is our most valuable resource. And if I'm really, really present, I can do so much more good and be so much more creative in an hour than I could in, you know, two hours, right? If I took an hour to like calm down and do some writing and do some things that I need to do because I'm stressed out of my mind.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:29.094)

that hour is going to be so much better utilized. And so keeping a consistent awareness, where am I at emotionally? And am I maintaining some semblance of balance? And that can get too extreme, right? If I become too perfectionistic about that, I need to feel just right. And I've certainly spent so much time in my life feeling and thinking that way. But to maintain some of that balance in my life is

is huge for me personally when it comes personally when it comes to success 'cause if I don't maintain that, then I can't maintain sobriety in the long run. Right. If if I'm not watching that. Yeah. And I do that enough. And then if there's no sobriety, then there's there's no peace and then it affects everything. So

Ania Hulsman (01:03:18.062)

Couldn't agree with you more. Well said. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:24.395)

Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (01:03:25.516)

Okay. what is a I think this connects really nicely to what you just said actually. What's a a a a ritual tool or practice or habit that genuinely grounds you and helps you function at your best, helps your brain function at its best?

Jake Kastleman (01:03:45.058)

There are so many things that I could talk about, and I'm gonna mention several. for me, the way I start my day is absolutely massive. I I came to understand, right, as someone who struggled so heavily with focus and motivation for so much of my life, I needed to optimize as much as I could and to create these systems as much as I could to to give myself momentum. And so what I found was

If I start my day by hitting the snooze button 10 times or, you know, watching TV or what a lot of people are doing now, which I blessedly never got in the habit of the scrolling reels or shorts, if I start my day that way, it impacts the entire rest of the day. Yeah. I think. And so starting my day with with quiet, with silence, not on technology, starting it with prayer.

starting with breath work. I absolutely love the Wim Hof technique. I do that most mornings and I have for about three years now. I do you ever do Wim Hof? Have you ever tried it before?

Ania Hulsman (01:04:50.018)

I've tried it but because of my like not f not enjoying feeling it's like I get really, really dizzy. So I I I don't really like it that much.

Jake Kastleman (01:04:57.599)

Too stifled with

Jake Kastleman (01:05:05.134)

That sense. That makes sense. Yes. And I so that so whatever breath work thing it is, breath is this really simple thing that we we can easily overlook. I use it all the time in my life now. It's free. We don't have to pay for it. It's right there. Exactly. And it and it's even just I you know, I do four eight breath work, which it's called by many names, but it's just four seconds in the nose, eight seconds out the mouth. Doing that for two minutes can calm you down.

Ania Hulsman (01:05:16.718)

And it's free.

Jake Kastleman (01:05:34.264)

Pretty significantly. I teach all my clients that that grounds me. for me, Anya, all throughout the day. and again, whether it's for somebody, you know, meditation or mindfulness or prayer, whatever it is for me, prayer all throughout the day before I start things, like before I'm hopping on this pat podcast episode, I'm praying for the outcomes that I want for people and what I want this episode, how I want it to help people. Now,

Some people can look at that and be like, Wow, that's so amazing, or you're so self-righteous and full of yourself, or whatever. For me, I did that out of necessity because I struggled with so much anxiety and so much perfectionism. It helps me get into this state of just more faith and more belief and more calm of like, I'm taken care of and like God's here. He's gonna help me. And I'm just here to make a small difference for somebody. And I can let

the performance and the rest of it go. And that has helped me so, so much just to focus on the good of others in prayer, even for just sixty seconds. Before I start most things throughout the day, that grounds me.

Ania Hulsman (01:06:41.206)

It's it's it's it's anchoring the state that you want to be in as well. you can't Well, I I'm imagining here, I'm gonna make something up that can can you be angry if you're in prayer and connecting to your faith?

Jake Kastleman (01:06:58.264)

Right. Right.

Ania Hulsman (01:06:59.458)

I f I f I feel like that would be really difficult, you know? Or well, I I my hallucination is that when you connect to a higher self that you actually that that it does regulate your nervous system. So whatever you call it or whatever flavor you have, it's it's what it really is is calming your nervous system and helping you to

connect with yourself and and and be present for what it is that you're doing and not be in your head, right?

Jake Kastleman (01:07:38.946)

Yes. And I I think that spirituality and psychology are are intimately intertwined. It's when I pray, we get so caught up in like, is God real? Is he not real? Whatever that is. It's whether you believe in God or not, when you go into a state of prayer and you're praying for other people or you're expressing gratitude, those are my two big things good of others or gratitude. I'm training my brain to focus on those things. And that's helping me calm down. It's helping my nervous system.

It's helping me build new habits of this is how I think, this is who I am. And especially with things like addiction, we get so self-focused. And I instead of saying selfishness or self-centeredness, I say, I say it's being self-focused because we get so obsessive and so uptight about how do I feel? What am I going through? What's going on inside of me? How do I manage these emotions? And if I can just get others focused, it's huge.

We get so self-critical as well. And gratitude is not self-critical. Gratitude doesn't assess my performance. It just says, I I am just grateful for what already is and I'm grateful for what I already have. And so that's training your brain to think and perceive the more the world more that way. And so that's why I'm constantly doing that throughout the day. It wasn't something I did because I was like, I wanna be a really moral person.

It was like I am desperate to feel better in my life. And so it was a it was a system I could set up in my life to feel that more of that peace and that wellness. I had to do it, you know.

Ania Hulsman (01:09:14.83)

Beautiful. Thank you. Great. Well, so much great stuff that you've been sharing so far, Jake. We are almost at the end of our conversation. We've just got a quick round of quick fire questions and with short answers, which the first question is Do you have any food quirks?

Jake Kastleman (01:09:17.219)

Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:09:40.308)

I eat an excessive amount of mixed nut butter. It's sold at Costco. I probably eat like five tablespoons of that per day. It is absolutely ridiculous how much I eat of that.

Ania Hulsman (01:09:52.96)

And is it that you really like the texture of it? What what is it about that that makes want to eat it? Do you like the flavor or do you know what it is?

Jake Kastleman (01:10:00.59)

Flavor is good, probably more like the texture of it and the feeling of it is is, yeah, I'd say that's big. I've always been that way. Like for me, like stuff like oatmeal or applesauce or like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Like I'm such a child in what I naturally love as far as foods go. I like my wife was like, What's your favorite meal? And I'm like, I really love

A good peanut butter and jellies. I don't eat that now, unfortunately. I've had to modify it a lot. So I'll do like a I have this mixed nut butter. I have this jelly that like doesn't contain any sugar. And I have like a wrap made out of like buckwheat, which is a seed. And I will like do this peanut this nut butter jelly wrap. But like I live for that. I love that so much. He's like, You're such a kid. And I'm like, it's just I've always that's what I've always loved.

Ania Hulsman (01:10:51.922)

You gotta own it, Jake. Brilliant. do you need recovery time after a big work or social event? And if so, how much?

Jake Kastleman (01:10:53.792)

Right.

Jake Kastleman (01:11:08.026)

So after my gosh, if I spend an entire day with people, like eight hours, I just want to be by myself and I hate all humans for like a solid like a solid four hours. Just I just want to be by myself. I love like I I've developed that extroversion, but I'm naturally very introverted. that's my place of recharge. And then work event stuff, like I I have found for me, it depends on the scenario. Sometimes I come out of that and I'm and I'm and I'm

like proud of what I did and I'm charged up. But sometimes I come out and I'm like just like drain, just like disappointed. Just like I I don't feel as great as I want to.

Ania Hulsman (01:11:46.742)

You ever go to in person networking events with people that where there are people that you don't know?

Jake Kastleman (01:11:53.1)

Ooh, I have done some of that for sure. Not a comfortable space for me, more comfortable than it once was. so much of my work is online now, though. You know, like I don't do much of that these days, honestly.

Ania Hulsman (01:12:06.88)

No, well, I I get that. I do, I do. I feel I think it's really good for me. I find like certain events are much easier for me to do than others. so there's this amazing woman, Marie Chapronnier, I think I've said her name correctly. She was actually recently a guest on my podcast and she has this

Jake Kastleman (01:12:09.208)

Do you do that? Do you go do you go to card?

Ania Hulsman (01:12:33.822)

a community called Behind the Mask, and I just love the name of it from the start. And she's neurodivergent herself, and it's one of the reasons how she got into that. And the events that she runs, I somehow I always like come out feeling buzzy and great and and I don't have much of a sort of what's the right word? Impressions hangover afterwards, right?

But then there are other events that I might go to where like I went to one, I think maybe it was in September, so quite a long time ago. but it was in this venue where the floor, there were floor belt boards and y I could feel it moving. So I could feel that moving. It was a lot of people, there was a lot of noise, there was a lot of movement from one space to the other.

And I I was like for two days afterwards I was recovering from from that event. It was like too much on too many levels. So now now I'm kinder to myself. Also I I generally just leave as soon as I feel like I st I starting starting to feel a bit overwhelmed. I'm like, Okay, I I've I've gotten to my capacity, it's time to go. I'm not whereas I would have pushed through before, I don't do that.

Jake Kastleman (01:13:53.994)

Right. Yeah. Yes. That's good. It makes so much sense to me 'cause I think I'm again very prone to just go into going to like, Well, I should be able to do this and I should have more capacity and why am I feeling this way? I shouldn't feel this way, right? Yeah.

Ania Hulsman (01:14:10.048)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's what I what what I would have done and the story that I would have told myself before I understood that actually that's not good for me.

Jake Kastleman (01:14:19.436)

Right. 'Cause then you drain yourself out and then you're like no good, like you're saying for like hours.

Ania Hulsman (01:14:24.494)

And then I and then I beat myself up for days afterwards. why you know, why do I feel this bad? Like why can't I get this done? And that's not good for me. And it doesn't yeah, it it's Yeah. It's like a negative spiral, which actually could could get worse and worse depending on, you know, how I decide to deal with it, right?

Jake Kastleman (01:14:45.122)

Well, I think and like right along with that, like if I will go into hyper focused mode for for days on a project, especially like course content I'll create, often when I'm done with that, I will f I will feel drained out and I I will act I will feel like depressed for a while after and I and I've really come to learn that about myself. and come to accept like when I'm done with this, I probably won't feel like jazzed. I'll probably feel drained out.

And I've learned tricks.

Ania Hulsman (01:15:16.394)

Permission. Yeah, do you give yourself permission to just rest for a couple of days afterwards?

Jake Kastleman (01:15:21.774)

No, not a couple of days, no. But probably like thirty minutes.

Ania Hulsman (01:15:28.398)

Well, if if like you i in the scenario where you are hyper focused, let's say for four days in a row and you're like really working hard and super concentrated, d do you then give yourself a like y 'cause my hallucination is that you would have done in those four days the equivalent of like two weeks' work of somebody else, right?

Ania Hulsman (01:15:56.696)

To to then I would like you to start thinking about that, Jake.

Jake Kastleman (01:16:02.734)

I give myself permission for like a very short period of time in comparison to that, honestly. And I probably should give myself more time than I do. And I don't. And sometimes that does lead to being trained or burned out. But I honestly I have my methods and ways of like recharging myself and reengaging and I use them and then I just

Keep going. So I don't know. Am I crazy? And should I be better about resting? Maybe. I don't know.

Ania Hulsman (01:16:38.318)

Always play around with it. Like try it out one time and see. Then you can let me

Jake Kastleman (01:16:43.15)

And literally when you say that, so I still have an issue with this because I get terrified when you say that because a part of me says, What? Not be busy? No, I have to be busy. I've gained more of that ability to like be in silence. Like when I feed my feed my infant or stuff like that and and do that, but I still am really scared of not being constantly busy. I fear that boredom. I've learned this about myself recently, especially after coming off the smartphone.

I felt bored the other day and I was like, it was it was so anxiety provoking for me. I was like, I cannot feel bored and not have enough to do. This is not okay. So I'm still really

Ania Hulsman (01:17:22.518)

It does sound a little bit like ADHD, by the way. Not diagnosing or pathologizing, just saying. All right. Next question. I'm gonna actually stick to the last one because we have been talking for a lot of time for a long time and and

Jake Kastleman (01:17:31.352)

Thank you.

Jake Kastleman (01:17:40.898)

Sorry, I'm long winded. It happens.

Ania Hulsman (01:17:42.702)

No no, not at all. I just think that there's been so much, like so much richness we you know, we don't need to overcook it, right? if there's one thing that you could change in the world, somebody made you the boss of the world. If there's one thing that you could change, what would that be?

Jake Kastleman (01:17:50.604)

Right. You're right.

Jake Kastleman (01:18:04.802)

On it, this is probably like a semi strange answer in some ways, but I would get rid of all screens.

Ania Hulsman (01:18:15.532)

That's where you're at right now, right? I don't disagree with you, right? I've got kids. my son's just been diagnosed autistic and I can see how he struggles. He also has social struggles. And I see how difficult it is for him. And I feel that, you know, I'm a tiny bit older than you, maybe like by a day or two.

I I didn't grow up with screens myself apart from a TV and we only had four channels when I was little, right? So, you know and you couldn't you know, it was either there was either something on or there or it was boring and you didn't watch, you just spent the whole time outside playing and being creative and I feel like that was so good for me. and

has made me more resourceful today as a result and and I wish that my you know, I wish my kids had that. I mean there are benefits of to technology. It's not like it's all evil, right? But I think the convenience o especially of smartphones is is is destructive. That th yeah. Maybe let's keep laptops, computers, desktops. Right. But just get rid of

Jake Kastleman (01:19:35.246)

Neither neither of us could have our jobs. So there's that. Right. And that's why I say it's ironic too, because it's like my entire livelihood, like it would not be possible without the technology. Yeah. But yeah, getting rid of all smartphones because it's just been because I have experienced and i I've been minimizing my use of a smartphone for years and then getting to that point where I was like, look, I I got so sick, I got sick of it multiple times and I said, I'm I'm done. I'm finally done.

I'm tired of this impacting my life in such a negative way. And I'm making some really drastic changes. But that took me years to get there. And with what I've experienced in such a short period, I'm just like, so many of us just have no idea how much this is harming our connections to people, our emotions, our dopamine levels, our feelings of focus and motivation, our presence. And we just deserve to live as humans and we become

like these technology consumers to such a large degree. It's n it's so harmful to our brains and our lives to a degree that I just don't think we can possibly see until we start to come out of it. And we're like, whoa, that's what I've been going through. So for me, I'm on the track of burn all smartphones, destroy them, get rid of them. But I also I also get it. And I know that's extreme, but it's just what I feel. So

Ania Hulsman (01:21:01.622)

Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much, Jake. I'm sure that there will be a few people who will be challenging their views of their phones. Among other things, actually, because there has been so much great stuff that we've talked about today. And I'm also sure that people will want to find you. So would you like to share again where people can find you if they're interested in knowing more about your work?

Jake Kastleman (01:21:28.632)

Yes. So I have my own podcast, No More Desire. If you look that up on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, wherever you find podcasts, it should come right up. love the work I do there. I have multiple guests on, including Anya's episode, is coming out in two weeks. I don't know when you launch this, but it's coming out on July eighth. So I'm excited about that. and then if you want to go deeper into coaching or I have a free workshop, free ebook, I have multiple resources, go to nomoresire.com.

A great place to go there is nomore desire dot com slash tools. And I have a whole page of tons of resources there that are free or paid if you're looking for coaching. So yeah.

Ania Hulsman (01:22:08.738)

Thank you so much. It's been so great. Thank you.

Jake Kastleman (01:22:12.642)

Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Anya.

Ania Hulsman (01:22:17.314)

Thank you for listening to this episode of NeuroDivergent Unplugged. My hope is that something in this conversation landed, that you're leaving with something that you didn't have when you arrived. If someone in your world would love this, a founder, a creative, someone who's quietly tired of pretending, please pass it on. These stories travel far when you share them. And if today sparks something and you're curious about working together, the chemistry call is 30 minutes.

No mask required. Find the link at anjaholzman.com. A huge thank you as always to Steve Greenwood for the original jingle that opens and closes every episode. See you next time on NeuroDivergent Unplugged.