Trauma, Porn, and Same-Sex Attraction in Men | Navigating Identity Confusion, Emotional Neglect, and Feeling Like "I Don't Belong"
- Jake Kastleman
- 2 days ago
- 37 min read
For many years, I believed porn addiction was primarily about willpower, lust, or a lack of discipline.
I believed—like many men—that if I could just try harder, pray harder, avoid triggers, or clamp down on my behavior, I would finally be free.
But after years of personal struggle, clinical study, and walking alongside hundreds of men in recovery, I’ve learned something far more sobering—and far more hopeful:
Porn addiction is rarely about pleasure. It’s about pain. And very often, that pain began long before the first click.
This episode of the No More Desire podcast, “Bullied, Ashamed, Addicted: How Trauma Can Shape Porn Use and Attraction,” with Jordan Castille, tells a story that many men quietly carry but rarely have words for. It’s a story of bullying, shame, identity confusion, and the deep human need for belonging—and how pornography becomes a nervous system coping strategy when those needs go unmet.
If you’ve ever wondered why porn feels so compulsive, why certain triggers hold so much power, or why simply “quitting” never seems to work long-term, this article is for you.
Porn Addiction Is Often a Trauma Response—Not a Moral Failure
One of the most important shifts a man can make in porn addiction recovery is moving from a moral framework to a trauma-informed framework.
That doesn’t mean abandoning responsibility.
It means understanding what you’re actually dealing with.
Bullying, rejection, humiliation, emotional neglect, or chronic “not fitting in” experiences don’t just hurt emotionally—they shape the nervous system.
Neuroscience shows us that repeated relational pain sensitizes the brain’s threat circuitry. Over time, the nervous system becomes hypervigilant, dysregulated, and desperate for relief.
Pornography offers that relief instantly.
It provides stimulation, escape, pseudo-connection, and emotional numbing—all in one place.
When trauma and shame are involved, porn addiction becomes less about sexual desire and more about regulation.
Your brain isn’t saying, “I want porn.”
It’s saying, “I need relief.”
This is why trauma and porn addiction are so deeply intertwined—and why shame only fuels the cycle further.
Shame, Isolation, and the Porn Addiction Loop
Shame is one of the most powerful accelerants of compulsive porn use.
When a man internalizes beliefs like:
“I’m not normal.”
“I don’t belong.”
“Something is wrong with me.”
“I’m not one of the guys.”
…those beliefs don’t just stay in the mind.
They lodge themselves in the body.
Psychologically, shame drives secrecy. Neurologically, secrecy increases stress. Biologically, stress amplifies cravings.
And porn becomes the quickest way to escape the unbearable weight of that internal experience.
This is why men who were bullied, ostracized, or made to feel “less than” often report more intense, more compulsive pornography addiction patterns. The addiction isn’t random—it’s patterned around emotional wounds.
Porn addiction and shame feed each other in a self-reinforcing loop:
Shame → Isolation → Porn → Temporary Relief → More Shame
Breaking this loop requires more than behavioral control. It requires healing the story underneath it.
Sexuality Is Symbolic: Why Porn Addiction Is Rarely About Sex
One of the most misunderstood aspects of pornography addiction is sexual fantasy.
Many men are terrified by their fantasies and attractions, assuming they must mean something definitive about who they are.
But psychology tells us something very different.
Sexual arousal is symbolic.
The brain often sexualizes unmet emotional needs—especially when those needs were never safe to express directly.
In the episode, we explored how experiences of rejection, bullying, and male shame can translate into sexualized longing—not because the desire itself is “wrong,” but because the nervous system learned to seek connection through arousal.
Porn becomes a symbolic attempt to meet core human needs such as:
belonging
acceptance
being seen
feeling valued
feeling wanted
When you understand this, porn addiction stops looking like a defect—and starts looking like a misdirected survival strategy.
Identity vs. Attraction vs. Behavior
One of the most damaging myths in porn addiction recovery is the belief that attraction equals identity.
Thought equals truth. Urge equals destiny. Fantasy equals self-definition.
This is especially devastating for men experiencing same-sex attraction alongside porn addiction, but the principle applies to all men.
Psychology—and particularly parts-based models like Internal Family Systems (IFS)—make a critical distinction:
You are not your thoughts. You are not your urges. You are not your arousal patterns.
You are the one experiencing them.
When men collapse attraction, identity, and behavior into a single meaning-making event, anxiety skyrockets—and compulsive behavior follows close behind.
Recovery begins when a man can say:
“I experience this—but it does not define me.”
This alone reduces the intensity of cravings by calming the nervous system and restoring internal leadership.
Why Trying to “Make Desire Go Away” Backfires
Many men approach porn addiction by waging war against their own sexuality.
They pray for the desire to disappear. They shame themselves for arousal. They attempt to suppress their bodies.
But neuroscience is clear: suppression increases rebound intensity.
Sexual desire is not the enemy.
It’s a powerful biological system designed for connection, creativity, and bonding.
When desire is treated as dangerous, the nervous system stays in fight-or-flight mode—making urges stronger, not weaker.
Healing begins when desire is honored without being obeyed.
This is the essence of masculine leadership. Not repression. Not indulgence. Leadership.
Triggers as Trailheads: A New Way to Work With Cravings
Instead of asking, “How do I make this urge go away?” try asking a more honest question:
“What just got stirred up inside me?”
Triggers are not signs that you’re failing.
They’re signals.
They show up when something in your system feels threatened, lonely, unseen, or overwhelmed. The urge itself isn’t the problem—it’s the messenger.
In my conversation with Jordan Castille, what became clear is that when men slow down and stop treating triggers like emergencies, patterns begin to emerge. Cravings almost always trace back to earlier experiences where something essential was missing—connection, safety, belonging, or acceptance.
When you follow the trail instead of fighting it, you start to see what’s really underneath the urge.
Often, it leads back to:
younger versions of you who learned to carry shame alone
beliefs about yourself that formed during adolescence and never got challenged
a deep need to feel included, wanted, or safe in your own skin
This is where real recovery begins.
When triggers are approached with curiosity instead of fear, porn addiction stops being a constant battle against desire and becomes a process of understanding what your mind and body have been trying to communicate all along.
And when a man understands himself, he no longer has to keep escaping himself.
Parts Work and Porn Addiction Recovery
From a parts work perspective, the part of you that wants porn is not evil.
It is protective.
Its goal is not destruction—it’s relief.
This part often develops during seasons of pain, loneliness, or rejection. It learned that arousal was the fastest way to regulate overwhelming emotions.
The problem is not the part.
The problem is that the strategy no longer serves you.
Recovery requires stepping into Self-leadership—calm, grounded, compassionate authority—and guiding these parts toward healthier regulation.
This is how inner wars end.
Masculinity, Belonging, and Healing Sexual Shame
Many men struggling with pornography addiction also carry deep wounds around masculinity.
“I’m not man enough.” “I don’t fit the mold.” “I’m behind.”
But masculinity is not a stereotype to achieve. It’s something to inhabit.
True masculinity is not the absence of emotion—it’s the capacity to contain it.
It’s the ability to face discomfort without escaping.
It’s leadership over impulse, not dominance over others.
And for many men, healing porn addiction involves rebuilding masculinity through:
embodied practices
male connection and brotherhood
service, purpose, and integrity
emotional honesty without collapse
Belonging heals what discipline cannot.
You’re Human— You’re Not Broken
One of the most powerful moments in this conversation was when Jordan reflected on what he most needed to hear as a younger man.
Not a strategy. Not a solution. Not a correction.
But this simple truth: “I’m not broken.”
When Jordan used the word normal, he wasn’t talking about fitting into some narrow box or erasing what makes him unique. He was naming something much deeper—something almost every man who struggles with porn addiction carries at some level:
“I’m outside the range of what’s acceptable. Something about me disqualifies me from belonging.”
That belief is devastating.
And it’s also false.
What both of us were pointing to in the episode is this: there is almost nothing a man can experience—no attraction, no coping strategy, no pattern of struggle—that places him outside the broad spectrum of human experience.
We are all shaped by pain. We all adapt in imperfect ways. We all carry wounds that influence how we seek comfort, connection, and relief.
Struggle itself is not abnormal. It’s human.
What isolates men isn’t their behavior—it’s the belief that their struggle means they’re uniquely defective.
I’ve seen this over and over again. Put a group of honest men in a room, and one finally says, “I struggle with this, and I feel like a terrible person.” And suddenly the room fills with quiet nods and “me too.”
Not because everyone is the same—but because pain expresses itself in recognizable patterns.
You are not a copy. You are not generic. You are not interchangeable.
But your suffering does not mean you’re irreparably broken.
It means you’re human.
And when shame loosens its grip and a man realizes, “I belong to the human story—even with this,” something powerful happens inside his nervous system.
Hope becomes possible. Connection becomes safer. Change becomes sustainable.
You’re not here because you failed some moral test. You’re here because you adapted to pain the best way you knew how.
And you can learn new ways—without erasing who you are, without rejecting your body, and without turning against yourself.
That’s not a weakness. That’s the beginning of real recovery.
A Different Path Forward
If you want lasting porn addiction recovery, the path is not harder suppression.
It’s a deeper understanding.
It’s learning to regulate your nervous system. It’s addressing shame instead of reinforcing it. It’s replacing secrecy with a safe connection. It’s leading your inner world rather than fighting it.
This is the work we do at No More Desire.
Not behavior modification alone—but transformation at the root.
You don’t overcome porn addiction by becoming someone else.
You overcome it by becoming more fully yourself.
And that journey is not only possible—it’s worth it.
If you’re looking for deeper support and real connection in recovery, I’m opening the No More Desire Brotherhood on January 15th. The pre-launch is open right now, and when you join, you’ll get free lifetime access to my 4 Pillars of Recovery mini-course, plus exclusive pre-launch bonuses. You can learn more and join here: https://www.nomoredesire.com/prelaunch
Want to contact Jordan? Check out his website: https://www.castillecoaching.com/
Free Resources:
Grab my Free eBook and Free Workshop for more strategies to overcome porn addiction, rewire your brain, and rebuild your life.
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Full Transcription of Episode 126: Bullied, Ashamed, Addicted: How Trauma Can Shape Porn Use and Attraction
Jake Kastleman (00:00.236)
Welcome to the No More Desire podcast, brothers. Excellent to have you here. Today I'm joined by Jordan Cast-Steel. So excited to have you here, man. Thanks for coming on the show.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Yeah, absolutely, man. Today, the topic of our episode is, as I was saying before this, one I've wanted to address on this show and talk about, it's really sensitive topic. And so it's one that you're well suited to talk about, Jordan. You have a personal story surrounding this and that is same sex attraction. And really talking about its connection to pornography addiction, to faith.
to shame and to fear and to all these burdens that a lot of men carry, I think a lot more than many of us would anticipate. So I wanna kind of start there just introducing, tell men a bit about you, maybe some about your story, what you're doing now and kind of some of a couple of your core philosophies in doing this work and as it relates to same-sex attraction.
Yeah, thanks Jake. well, just a few things to start off with. I'm married, I have a wife. We've been married for 14 years now and we have three kids, two sons and a daughter. And our daughter was just born eight months ago. So, yeah, thanks. It's been a fun season with our kids.
Jordan Castille (01:38.798)
Um, yeah, so, um, I, uh, experienced same sex attraction. I was addicted to pornography, uh, that was same sex oriented. And yeah, growing up in our, culture, especially, um, I'm 44. So, uh, for quite some time, you know, our culture really
put a lot of shame on people who would struggle that way, and experience that. And so, yeah, I felt very isolated, very, ashamed for my struggle. I felt like I was the only person and yeah, just, it was a quiet,
internal struggle that I never talked about.
And when you say, say struggle, Jordan, tell us more about kind of that struggle or that tug of war, what you were going through inside. Cause you grew up in a faith culture, right? In a very conservative culture and religion, right? So, uh, yeah. So talk, talk more about what was going on inside of you in that way.
Yeah, so, you know, as a child in my childhood, our family, we'd go to church every Sunday. We didn't miss church. you know, wouldn't necessarily address these things. Nobody talked about it. It was just kind of you go to church, you hear a teaching, you take communion.
Jordan Castille (03:34.786)
You ask God to forgive you of your sin and then you leave and go about your week. And yeah, I think over time, especially as I got older, teenage years, puberty and all of that, like I found myself feeling a stronger pull toward men at that time. And I wouldn't have said,
that was same-sex attraction at that time. But the trauma that would come a little bit later in my high school years really kind of thrusted that feeling towards men in a very strong way to where I began consuming gay pornography when I was in college. And as I did that,
I became pretty isolated within myself and I felt afraid to talk about this. I didn't feel like I had anyone I could really discuss it with. yeah, it was really, really hard. For three solid years, I was just on a daily basis.
looking at pornography, uh, multiple times a day. it was just consuming my thoughts, consuming my is like, you know, I was in college, going to school. so I, you know, do homework and assignments and everything. It was like almost my free thoughts were about this.
Hmm.
Jake Kastleman (05:24.142)
And it just sounds just devastating emotionally and mentally, right? And this kind of a, this dissonance between what you grew up believing and a lot of the things that you were taught, right? About marriage and sexuality and God and carrying this weight of shame of, wow, there must be something truly wrong with me or
or I must be sinful or, you know, what were some of these early interpretations you made about yourself when you noticed that same sex attraction? And I know it kind of started with the attraction to men, some of that pull, but then became far more lighter. But talk about some of those interpretations that you made.
Yeah, yeah, so I would definitely say some some different interpretations where I don't belong I'm not one of the guys I have that was
My clients with same sex status said that same, like those same words. I don't believe I'm not one of the guys.
Yeah, I'm an outsider. Yeah, I'm I'm all alone. And.
Jordan Castille (06:50.348)
Yeah, just pretty hopeless.
Yeah. And I'm looking down here, I'm taking notes by the way. So I'm texting or something while you're talking. So very, very engaged with what you're saying, but I, you know, I'm not, I don't belong. I'm not one of the guys. This, I wonder this Jordan, when I've, when I've heard this and kind of your personal perspective, your personal experience on it. I feel like a need that's in there is there's a need of belonging, but there's also a need.
Yeah, sure.
Jake Kastleman (07:22.808)
perhaps a feeling like I'm important or significant or I am valuable as an individual and lacking that feeling of like, I'm enough, I'm significant, I like who I am and I feel that others like who I am, just really missing that human need. that? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, the basic needs of friendship of, you know, being known, seen by others, especially from your own gender, I would say is really, really important for any human being. And especially if you experience same-sex attraction like I do. having good friends.
And once that can know you and see you without getting scared and, you know, really you have companionship, healthy friendship. And yeah, to me that is, that's been one of the most powerful experiences in my story that has been very healing to where I felt.
like I belong to men in a good and healthy way.
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I've read Unwanted, Chase Stringer, book, amazing book. I'm sure you know it well. And he talks about in there and Drew's book, Outgrow Porn, also phenomenal. You know, he talks about kind of the significance of our emotional experiences, our relational experiences as they relate to sexual attachment and attraction.
Jake Kastleman (09:26.67)
You talked about belonging to men and feeling, having really positive, vulnerable connections with the same sex, with other men. How do you feel like that played into this when you were younger or some of the different struggles emotionally you went through with this and how that shifted with reference to these relationships with men? What were they like when you were younger? What are they like now?
Yeah, yeah, thanks. That's, that is pretty important because in my childhood, I would say I had, you know, some, some good friends along the way, but with some of them, especially kind of an early elementary, early middle school days, maybe, the, would just end all of a sudden. And, you know, it's just kind of, you know, you're, drifting like,
And there's other friend groups that they're getting connected to or maybe they act a certain way that you're just like, I don't feel like we're on the same page that we used to be. And so I think that happens to a lot of us.
Sure, I had multiple experiences like that, yeah.
Yeah. And so, and you know, when you're a kid, you really don't know how to end a friendship well. Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (10:58.968)
No, not at all. It's very new experience at that point.
Yeah, yeah, and so, you know, we.
I think I still don't know how to end a friendship well. So, yeah, just kind of fade into non-existence. I'll just disappear.
Yeah, it does seem that way sometimes. So, yeah, my high school years, I had, it was probably like three solid friends and we would hang out quite a bit. I'm very grateful for those friendships. But, you know, it's kind of the trauma that took place in my high school years.
They saw the trauma. So to give you a little backstory there, I did gymnastics and I grew up in very small town, Texas. people were like, hey, Jordan, you would be really good at being a cheerleader for our high school. You should do it because that was really good at doing flips.
Jordan Castille (12:14.124)
And so I tried out, I made it. I was the only guy on our team. And this is in the late 90s, mid to late 90s. And if you've ever seen a movie, TV show about Texas high school football, my high school fit the stereotype. And...
Very masculine, very like extreme masculine.
Mm-hmm. Extreme masculine and you know, everyone revolves around the football team and Tradition is just like this intense like Yeah conservative place and And you know a lot of the movies they kind of exaggerate things to some degree but
Some of it you're like, oh, that actually I think did happen. so anyway, so my junior year of high school, I was actually, and I had received some bullying for being a guy cheerleader. And it was kind of off and on, but my junior year, was just kind of like, as if all of a sudden I was turned on and got called every name in the book from.
fag, homo, bitch, pussy, on a regular basis. And a lot of those people were on the football team.
Jake Kastleman (13:40.312)
my
Jake Kastleman (13:52.942)
I'm actually, really surprised by that because maybe, tell me more about the context because these guy cheerleaders, at least the ones that I've seen, you're hanging out with the cheerleaders, they're beautiful, they're popular, you're doing lifts, I mean, you're very physically strong. All that seems, I mean, quite awesome to me, I suppose, but did it look different?
for you, I mean, what was kind of the stereotype or the judgment that these guys were making?
Yeah, I mean, it is kind of like me doing a sport that is primarily female. Like I must be gay because I'm doing this thing. Even though, I mean, even at the time there were other schools with guys doing it. So it was, it was kind of becoming more of a thing for, for that. cause we're in.
doing more of the lifts and things like that, like holding up the girls and doing all that kind of thing, or were you more in line with the girls doing what they were doing? Is that?
So it was a bit of both. would do lifts and I mean, my skill was definitely in the gymnastics part of it. Yeah, tumbling and.
Jake Kastleman (15:25.774)
really quite an incredible physical feat to do that. It's so odd that you'd be so bullied for it because that is an exceptional skill.
Yeah, yeah, thanks. But yeah, it's just, I think part of it is, is I was kind of breaking into something that wasn't normal. And people is different. People didn't like that different. And so it...
It became that that year became like a very difficult time. So yeah.
So you feel like this trauma really played into then your struggles with pornography, with same sex pornography that came up shortly thereafter in college. Is that right?
Yeah, I mean, I would say as I've done kind of the fantasy work of understanding my fantasy, understanding where it came from, I mean, it points to that here. Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (16:36.046)
And for those listening who don't know, know, sexual fantasy processing, right? I had Drew on the podcast episode 110 and we go over all a lot of details on that. Very powerful, very powerful work and very counterintuitive by the way to what most of us have been taught. You know, we think, ignore all that. Don't look at it. We should just try not to think about it, but diving into it, deeply understanding it just is so freeing. It's amazing.
Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think I remember the first time that I did that and it really showed me like, I mean, I literally in the fantasy that I wrote out, I was thinking about one of my bullies just instantly like having a sexual experience with him. it was just, it was quite, it was quite jarring for me.
Why am I thinking about this guy?
Yes, right. Totally. logically, this makes absolutely no sense. know, and I always, with, uh, in my program, I, I take the mental mind and the emotional mind and separate them and say they both operate by totally different rules and totally different, um, systems of logic, quote unquote, if you will. All right. What we mentally think logically about emotions don't, it doesn't apply, you know, the emotional mind functions by a totally different set of, of rules.
So in this fantasy assignment that Drew actually had me do, I was in a small group with him, imagining this guy that bullied me. I realized, whoa, back then, 16, 17 year old me felt rejected, alone, isolated.
Jordan Castille (18:35.256)
Like something was wrong with him, not one of the guys. And in this fantasy, I'm wanting to connect sexually with this guy so I can feel accepted, known, and just loved. Because I felt just an intense lack of love in this period of my life.
Yes. And it's again, this, if I would've heard this, you know, five years ago, I would be just terribly confused by that. But once you, once you start to understand that sexuality is symbolic, right? That we're trying to meet needs and core good desires, things that, that we really need as human beings, emotional needs, relational needs through sexuality.
then it starts to make sense. Where like you're saying, I wanna feel loved, I wanna feel seen, I wanna feel known, right? And then with such an intense pain, the mind can easily, especially I would say as a man, perhaps I might be ignorant in saying that, but especially as a man, would say we, our mind tends to sexualize that pain. And I would say when I say especially as a man, and I'd love for you to chime in on this,
because we often don't know how to be aware of, attuned to, and regulate our emotions. We stuff them down, we make them unconscious, and so then they manifest unconsciously as a sexual representation of trying to the pain.
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (20:26.936)
Yeah. So inside your story, there are different parts of you, right? That held competing beliefs. One part of you is holding faith. One part's holding the desire, right? Sexual desire. One part's holding fear or shame. Can you talk about kind of some of that inner dialogue, those burdens or beliefs that were competing inside of you? And do they compete in you now sometimes? Or do you feel like
you know, where are you at with that now? I'd love to know that as well.
Yeah, so I would say, you know, from a faith standpoint, I, you know,
I didn't really grow in my relationship with Jesus until I was a senior in college. And so just the faith aspect in my mind, it was like, this thing of a desire for homosexuality in any way is bad. I just knew that. That's what culture said loudly at the time.
Yeah, both implicitly and explicitly. Yeah.
Jordan Castille (21:44.728)
Yeah. Yeah. So, so that was, that was with me and also with the, you know, a spiritual aspect. Shame. mean, it took me until, so I joined my small group in my church that I now currently still am a member of since I was a senior in college and I work for it. It took me nine months.
to feel safe enough to finally share about the struggle. And I was terrified because the shame was so strong. I would talk about having a struggle with pornography or masturbation. I could do that. That wasn't that hard. And the majority of the guys that I was around in our small group, yeah, me too.
Yeah.
Jordan Castille (22:43.282)
yeah, so, but this one side of it that is, on the same sex side, I, did not want to open up that can of worms, and be rejected again. And,
relate to it yeah.
Jordan Castille (23:06.04)
But with time and my friendships in that group growing, it's like, you know, kind of going back to the friendship question where it's like childhood versus, you know, where in life they got healthy and good. And this is where it began for me, where I experienced really good, deep, meaningful connection, really being able to share.
openly being attuned to and experiencing like just a lot of fun and getting to spend time, quality time and you know, just feeling like I was one of the guys when I didn't necessarily feel that way in the most traumatic years of my life.
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (24:06.326)
And Jordan, can you tell people more about why that is so crucial when it comes to the experience of same-sex attraction and how that relates to having these deeply meaningful relationships with other guys that you do have now?
Yeah, I mean, and of course, know, college years, you have all the time in the world to, you know, have deep and meaningful friendships. You know, today as a married man with three kids and full-time job and it's like, I don't get that same time as I did, you know, in that season of life. So, but I still.
Today I do get to have meaningful, deep friendships. But yeah, I think back to those college years and it's just like, yeah, it's like if all you did was take class, you had a lot of free time to do whatever you wanted to. And so, yeah, I was able to in that time, like I just had so many.
friends when I joined this church. mean, naturally, I just connect with people pretty easily. it was just, I would say, just so helpful to feel like I belonged, because I really didn't, you know, like I said, didn't feel that way in childhood. And I felt accepted. I felt
scene, you know, all of these good desires were getting met in my Jewish community. I was, you know, able to be, you know, it was like I had, you know, there's the group at large and I was able to share openly in there. But then there was the smaller group where I shared, you know, more.
Jordan Castille (26:15.406)
and specifically to the struggle. And I worked really hard to be careful about who I shared it with. I wasn't just, all right, everyone, it's out there.
I'm going to tell anyone and everybody about my most personal struggle and feelings. People who've earned the right as the saying goes. Right. Right. It's important. It's important. I want to ask this question specifically, especially for those who can really relate to this, what were you most afraid would happen?
when you told others about same-sex attraction that you experience? And what was the response that you received when you did, obviously being conscious of who you did express it to?
Yeah. So yeah, what I was afraid of happening was being told I can't be in this church anymore or this. Uh, or, uh, I don't want to ever talk to you again.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Kastleman (27:40.13)
Yeah. Yeah. What was the response that you did receive?
Jordan Castille (27:48.568)
Yeah, it was quite the opposite. Acceptance, it was, well, thanks for telling me that. Can I pray for you?
Awesome man.
Jake Kastleman (28:05.4)
Wow, that's great, It is really great. And I think it's developed to be much more like that nowadays than it was 50 years ago, right? Or even not that long ago, whereas there's more of an openness, right? There's still a lot of judgment surrounding the topic and a lot of people who will judge, condemn, et cetera, but.
much more openness and love. On kind of related to that, know, many men assume that SSA or same-sex attraction automatically means something definitive about their identity as a human being. What did you learn about your sexual attraction versus your identity versus your behavior?
that really helped you in this journey.
Yeah, really good question. And very complex. Yeah, so, you know, at the time.
I can only imagine.
in those early years, I would say that, you know, I finally, when someone, I think, said same-sex attraction, I was just like, that feels like the word.
Because, you know, I didn't really consider myself to be gay or really even bisexual in any means. Even though it was like, yeah, my arousal towards or towards men. But I did not want to accept that about myself or accept that as my identity, I would say. Because, I mean, I would just say that
biggest thing is being a follower of Jesus. You know, I want my identity to be based off of what he says about me and not what the world says about me.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.
And that's very much centered in whole truth about who you are as a human being. Yeah, crucial.
Jordan Castille (30:34.516)
I would say, you know, as I grew and understood, you know, what Jesus says about me, it's like, okay, I have this struggle with same-sex attraction. That was kind of the phrasing that I used. And then I would say over time, it started to change a little bit, but a big thing that was huge for me
was more of an acceptance of just my sexuality in general. Because a lot of times I would actually pray when I'm experiencing temptation to look at porn again, to just say, God, just make it go away. make this temptation leave. it's almost like praying against my body. Yeah. The way that he created me.
Yeah.
Once I began to actually accept that part of me that he built into me, the sex drive, and at the heart of it, it's a really good thing and it works. And for me it works and just like most men out there, but.
Yeah, it became like, okay, I experienced this with arousal and I didn't probably have the words to articulate that at the time that I do now, but really accepting like, sexuality is actually a good thing and God created it inside of us. And so my prayer changed from make this go away to
Jordan Castille (32:28.098)
Man, Jesus, thank you for my sexual desire. Right now, I want to honor you and ask for your help, rather than shut it down. Because it's not shutting down.
Yeah, yes, right. No. And if I try to make it shut down, it will only come out in destructive ways in my life because it has to be expressed somehow. Whether it be destructive or it be in really healthy ways or anything in between. Yeah.
Yeah. So, you know, I would say it's kind of gone from, struggle to same-sex attraction to I experience same-sex attraction. And, know, through my, healing that I've gone through for the last like 20 years, I, I've heard Jesus tell me, you know, I see you. I love you.
Hmm?
Jordan Castille (33:34.39)
I'm with you. You are one of the guys.
Jordan Castille (33:41.26)
You're not alone. I was there.
over and over in my story. experiencing that, it's like today, you know, still experience same-sex attraction. It doesn't go away. But the power that it had has greatly reduced.
Jake Kastleman (34:16.065)
Because that's something that you've experienced throughout your life. And I like that you make that distinction of viewing it as a struggle versus viewing it as an experience. I this is very akin to, know, I'm sure you do this same thing, but it's an Eastern philosophy in many ways, but it's also Western, is emotions and thoughts do not define who I am.
They are things that I experience as a human being. And I think I heard that over and over again from different sources and I never understood it until I found IFS and parts work, which really unlocked that for me to be able to view thoughts and emotions as something I'm experiencing rather than who I am, because these parts of me aren't me.
They're parts of my mind and body. They're aspects of my personality, but they're not who I am. And that's, that is powerful, very powerful.
You know, one of the things that I think of is just interpreting kind of these, same sex attraction of these fantasies more as information rather than an indictment, right? And making that shift, you feel like there was a distinct point in which you were able to start to see it more as information, something that informed you rather than defined
you.
Jordan Castille (35:56.044)
Yeah, definitely. And you know, you talking about the IFS model, I actually have done quite a bit centered around parts work for myself. And I do that with others with men in this line of work. And the thing that I realized, I connected with a part of me that experienced the same sex attraction and is aroused in that way.
It was like, okay, this is part of me, but it's not the whole me. And I was able to really connect with this part of me, understand it, understand why it wanted to take over and run the show inside of me.
And why did it want to, if I may ask that?
I mean, when I connected with it, I did this several years ago and I even did it recently because of a challenging thing in my own life was really triggering that part of me. And so, but a few years ago, the why was essentially to protect me from that childhood trauma that I talked about.
That's right. Part of you that deeply wanted to protect you much as a mother or father would try to protect their child just internal inside of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that method of protecting wasn't working. It was leading to further pain, right? That's, that's how the ego or
Jordan Castille (37:25.405)
and
Jordan Castille (37:47.854)
Bye.
Jake Kastleman (37:52.334)
the natural man or, you know, kind of our minds work without guidance of self or higher self, you know, or as it were Christ, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Very powerful man. How did your relationship with God change or shift when you stopped trying to fix your attractions and instead began understanding your story, using them as information instead?
Yeah, it was a huge shift because I don't know about you, even if you don't have same-sex attraction, when you're just so fixated on stopping the thing, praying, like, God, take this thing. I stopped doing that and I stopped thinking about it every
Yes.
Jake Kastleman (38:41.71)
Take this away from me.
Jordan Castille (38:52.184)
five minutes or every moment of my waking twice. And so it really helped me to, you know, really focus on other things that were good in my life and enjoy life more. And then I would say, you know, within the last five years,
yeah.
Jordan Castille (39:18.784)
and the healing work I've been able to do using it more as information rather than getting fixated on the struggle was more, yeah, it really showed me, okay, there's this story that's coming up within me from my childhood. what did I believe about myself then? You know, why is this triggering this story?
It's like using that framework of story work and the IFS work and then inviting Jesus into those spaces for Him to come and bring His truth to where I believe those lies about myself and yeah, experience healing and
greater freedom.
And it's really about using triggers as trailheads, right? The trailheads for deeper self-understanding and for healing, if I choose to utilize them that way. And I think it's very much about approaching these emotions that pop up for me in a Christ-like way with acceptance and compassion. And I actually heard a definition for compassion the other day that really
put kind of fit a puzzle piece more deeply ingrained in a much better way for me and compassion is to suffer with, right? And so, you know, I wanna share something somewhat briefly kind of about what you were saying every five minutes, you were having these thoughts for years of, you know, I remember for me, it was all about
Jake Kastleman (41:20.174)
You know, when I was, what was I, 19 or 20, I thought if only I could overcome pornography, if only I could stop masturbating, my life would then take off, I'd finally be enough, I could finally pursue all these dreams that I have and finally have the motivation and the focus and the joy and feeling connected to people that I want.
And it took me multiple years to finally realize that all those things I wanted were the answers to me overcoming the pornography and challenges with masturbation being this crutch I was going to. I needed to pursue that meaningful life and that life of true joy and connection and to be brave, put myself out there, all those things. And the story that I...
kind of want share that goes along with this, you know, and when it comes to using our triggers as information and methods for self-healing, you know, I was at the gym a couple of months ago or so, and I saw a woman there who was, you know, dressed in the usual attire, many women dressing at the gym, right? Sports bra and all that. And so for me,
as someone who struggles with a history of pornography addiction and all of that, you know, it's triggering. It's both arousing, but it's also upsetting for me as well because there's a part of me that says, when I experienced that arousal, you know, there's kind of this feeling of craving, this fear that comes up like, no, not this, not this trigger that's coming up for me again. It's going to distract me and now it's on my mind and I'm fixated on it, right?
that initial response is still there for me, right? Many times it's not, but sometimes it still comes up, especially if I'm stressed, I know that it's gonna come up. And so that reaction is not something that I can change right now, right? It can shift and has shifted over time, but my response to it, right? Which is that's where IFS and parts work and other things and prayer and all that come in.
Jake Kastleman (43:44.556)
So I recognize you want to use, I use the rail method with my clients, which is just an IFS based framework. So recognize the protector. So I see both a manager and a firefighter there. The firefighters, it's like, let's latch onto this whole arousing experience. It's exciting. And I want to get fixated and obsessed with it. And then there's the manager that's like, it's bad for you to feel any of this. You should stop feeling that. Gosh, what are you just like this such messed up person, your morals are all screwed up.
All right, stop thinking about it. It's just trying to suppress it. And if I can appreciate both sides, one side that wants me to experience pleasure and arousal and sensation and sensuality and that whole thing, right? That's a really good part of me fundamentally, right? I may have experienced a lot of suffering throughout its existence and throughout my life with it, but it's fundamentally good. The other part of me wants to be a moral person with high standards. It's also good.
I can appreciate both sides. So recognize, appreciate. And then underneath that getting into the insecurities is the I, right? In rail. And so for me, you know, and this is actually Drew's process floss is extremely similar. So this should be going in the origin story, right? in his floss process. So I went back to, you know, where, okay. If I have a firefighter part of me that wants to fixate on this
very attractive, beautiful woman, woman at the gym, right? What does that go back to for me? Like, what is that part trying to do for me? And very distinctly, I had just memories of high school come up for me. The beautiful cheerleaders at school, the attractive girls at school, all that. All those people that I felt like I was an outsider. I stood on the outside of those groups, of the guys who were
attractive and popular, right? Who were with those girls and never feeling good enough for those girls and wanting to connect with them and really wanting to frankly have a sexual experience, but more so to have a relational belonging and an emotional experience of like, I feel wanted and I feel like I'm connected with someone who I'm overjoyed to be with, right? A girl who I'm just excited about. And I didn't have that.
Jake Kastleman (46:08.714)
in high school. And so I really moved towards this kind of teenage part of me, you know, and invited him in and said, Hey man, come on in. I feel that pain with you right now, right? That compassion. I'm suffering with you. I understand how painful that was for you in high school and just being, and I'm at the gym and I'm working out and I'm just kind of doing this in my mind and being present breathing.
And I settled into that for, you know, a minute or two with this teenage part of me. I get you, man. You want to belong. You want to belong. You want to feel connected. You want to be with a woman you're excited about. Those are all good things. All good things. And that's underneath the insecurities or the intentions or those core good desires. Those are all good things. All good things.
And just by doing that and then able to take leadership, that L in rail, to, okay, I can lead these parts of me. I can be that compassionate leader. I'm here for you and I understand you. And I can say, okay, I want that in my marriage now. Or I wanna be that loving, you know, connected person for the people around me, you know, and I wanna cultivate relationships like that now in my life.
But more importantly, it's just feeling and being with that suffering in that part of me for a while. That's so freeing. So freeing. Just so counterintuitive, because it's the opposite of what part of you thinks you should do, right?
Yeah. So, such good stuff, Jordan, just in everything you've shared thus far. wanna...
Jake Kastleman (48:07.734)
One of the things I was curious about, maybe a bit of a tangent, but I wondered if you've seen kind of your same sex attraction, this experience you have as a blessing in any kind of way, or if you feel like you hold gifts inside of you that are perhaps unique to you that come along with that same sex attraction. Yeah, does any of that resonate for you?
Yeah, know, years, I definitely felt like this was a curse. And that, you know, that again, the insecurity of something is wrong with me. And I remember.
for
Jordan Castille (48:58.274)
Parable
no, 20ish.
maybe a little less than 20 years ago. I was just angry with God, just straight up angry that I struggle with same-sex attraction. I just did not want that in life. And, you know.
I, it was like, I'm the one holding him accountable for giving, well, like for this struggle happening in my life. And, you know, I invited Jesus to speak into that. And he just simply said, Jordan, you have this struggle so you can relate with others that do. And,
It just, it hit my heart in a pretty powerful way to where, I mean, it shifted within me to really accept this as a gift rather than, you know, a curse. And
Jordan Castille (50:15.264)
I think back to my life and all the hard things I went through and I'm like, I actually kind of being on the other side now.
I wouldn't have it any other way.
Yeah, that's powerful, man. What you say reminds me of an experience that I actually had at the retreat that we were at a number of months ago. One of the things that I've been seeking for in my life and that I feel, actually, as I'm saying it right now, it's quite amazing to me to authentically feel this, seeking to feel the love of God genuinely.
Not just to say mentally like, yeah, I know God loves me, right? And he loves me unconditionally, but to feel it in my being. And one of the things that I was doing some just, most every morning about 15 minutes, I'll do some journaling and parts work and get in touch with parts of me and work through maybe a hard experience I had, whether little or big over the last 24 hours. And I was...
just reflecting on God, want to, well, it was the phrase, you are His beloved son and He is well pleased, right? And a part of me said to that, and it would be the achiever part of me, it's one of the most prominent parts of me that's led out in a lot of my life that I've been trying to help.
Jake Kastleman (51:55.542)
feel appreciated and calm and relaxed so it can be more balanced and other parts of me can rise up to be more equal with it. So this part of me to that says, why? Why? What have I done to deserve that love? What have I done to prove myself to be so lovable, lovable unconditionally? Why would you love me like that? And I felt that inside and I voiced that.
recognizing that part, that's what it says, it's what it believes. And I voiced that and I sat with that for a while. You know, I'm outside kind of walking around in the morning and just thinking and praying and I had this very distinct voice come into my mind.
Why do I love you? I just do. And I love you because I want you to give that love to everybody around you. That is why I love you so you can share it in abundance with the people around you. And when you say you received this very distinct kind of voice or this impression of you deal with same-sex attraction so you can relate to and be compassionate to others who do.
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (53:18.456)
that there's just something so fundamental and so powerful about that, that our weaknesses are what connect us together and God loves us so that we can share that love with others. You're my creation and I share that love with you so you can share with the people around you, just like he does with all of us.
I appreciate you sharing that man. so do you, and kind of shifting gears a little bit, how did SSA fuel addictive patterns differently than you think it would with heterosexual men and what they experience when it comes to pornography addiction or sexual addiction?
Yeah, I I would say it's pretty similar except the content that I'm viewing is of men having sex with each other rather, you know, a man and a woman together or a naked woman on the screen. So just simply put that way.
Yeah. Well, and I think that that's, it's powerful that you say that too, because there are these similarities that we all share and it's not, I think it's, what would I say? Is it depolarizing? There's a word I'm looking for, but taking some of the stigma out of it where it's, it's just, it's kind of a different expression, right? Of same underlying.
challenges that we deal with, of the needs that we're trying to meet for connection and belonging and feeling like we have a place to feel safe and accepted. Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Castille (55:14.05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, I think of especially, you know, with pornography itself, you're wanting connection with a guy. And then, you know, if it translates to real life, you acting out with a man, it's like, yeah, there's just this desire, good desires, just like, you know, a guy with heterosexual porn.
word of connection.
you know, you know, and the sexualization of the emotions that we experience leading us down that trail.
Yes. Yep. That's good. And how do you feel like secrecy and kind of identity confusion really played into intensifying the compulsive behavior of porn use for you?
Jordan Castille (56:19.286)
Yeah, mean, it was definitely as, you know, I would say that in those early years with gay pornography, I kind of ignored the identity aspect of it because I didn't want to deal with that. And it was almost as if pornography was my way of coping.
Yep.
And, and so like all of this pain and hurt from years before, you know, especially if I'm alone in my apartment in college, like, I don't want to deal with that. Porn will help me feel connected and better. so it, I mean, it became quite compulsive for me.
And that it's like, didn't want to act out with an actual person. And porn was kind of a bit of the gateway for that. And...
Jordan Castille (57:38.2)
Yeah, I can't pinpoint anything else other than that.
Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so one of the other questions I'd, I definitely want to ask you Jordan is on the topic of masculinity. This is big when it comes to same sex traction, right? Um, you've been through a ton with that, I'm sure. Um, what did you believe about masculinity kind of, and what defined it, uh, how you related to it before going through a lot of this healing journey?
And how has your deaf initiative masculinity transformed now?
Yeah, I mean, I feel like with masculinity, it's, there's, there's not a true definition.
Right. True.
Jordan Castille (58:32.11)
This is so complex and I think it's, you know, in the way that God designed each man, you know, in the world. We just express different gifts, different talents, different personality traits that God built inside of us. So I think it can be complex. I think, so with masculinity,
I definitely felt, again, that thought of I'm not one of the guys or I'm not man enough. Something's wrong with me. I don't have what it takes. Those are all big influential thoughts inside of me. And I think one is just as I began my healing journey and really following Jesus,
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Castille (59:31.022)
It's like having the fellowship of men, having community and experiencing deep, meaningful community. that was just a powerful repair tool in my own masculinity. And, you know, the way that I just really can express myself, be kind of loud at times and, uh,
and just really enjoy life, enjoy nature. Like all of those things where it's like, especially the kind of the toxic masculinity that has been defined out there of you're a macho man. you know, you, you don't talk about emotions. You eat them. Kind of as intense like.
definition or thing and of course, know, culture likes to define things for us.
Yeah, but yeah.
You know, I would say part of it is it's what God built inside of us and for us to discover. And to say like there's a perfect definition of what masculinity is, I don't think there is one. And I think when we can get so hyper fixated on that and achieving that, we're going to probably get disappointed in that process.
Jake Kastleman (01:01:06.606)
then I'm moving away from the authenticity of self into now I'm taking on an identity again and I'm putting on a mask. This is who I'm supposed to be as a man rather than really leaning into and cultivating who I am. It's already in there. All the gifts are already there. I'm just leaning into them.
Leaning into the self-awareness of that and learning about what you're good at, your strengths, your values, your talents and things that you really enjoy doing.
I love that man. So good. What do you kind of perhaps my last question, we'll see where it goes. What do you say to the man who is terrified that his attractions mean he's not masculine or not spiritual or not normal or in the same vein, if you could speak to your younger self, just going through everything you were.
Or would you say to him?
Yeah, speaking to my younger self, I would just simply say, you're normal.
Jake Kastleman (01:02:35.374)
You're no like that.
free.
Mm-hmm.
And
Jordan Castille (01:02:44.526)
You're going to get through this.
And like there's a lot that God has in store for you and how he's going to use you in this world and for your family. And yeah, I mean, I would say the thing I would pray for is a feeling of I'm normal.
Yeah.
and I did not feel like I was a normal man.
Heh.
Jake Kastleman (01:03:20.59)
There's really nothing we can experience that's outside the range of normal, I feel like, because our experiences are just all over the map. And when someone in a group is like, I struggle with this and I feel like I'm a horrible person. And then like every other guy in the group is like, yep, me too, me too, me too. Right? Yeah. It's true, man. Powerful. It's powerful.
And so, you know, thinking back to younger self, it's like, yeah, you're a normal person who struggles in life. And it's hard. You're going to make it through this with Jesus. you're not some irreparable, broken, messed up individual.
Hmm?
Jake Kastleman (01:04:15.214)
I think it's so easy for us to believe that when we're going through hard things. But then we're just like you're saying struggle. You know, I say pain, this pain and joy roller coaster that we're going through our whole life. It never ends. I think for years I was fixated on this idea that I could reach a point where I only experienced joy and pain is part of life. And it is, and it's there to teach me.
You know, as we said earlier, it's information. It's actually a trailhead for my self discovery and growth and healing. yeah, yeah. Well, Jordan, thank you so much for the conversation, man. I'm going to drop these things in the show notes, but if people want to connect with you, work with you, get in better touch with you, how can they do that?
Yeah, so my website, castielcoaching.com and my email, jordan at castielcoaching.com. Those are two great ways to connect with me.
Perfect. Love it, man. Well, thanks again, Jordan, for your time, Beautiful conversation. Really appreciate you. I really appreciate your courage and your authenticity, your willingness to go out and help men and to use this, what you once viewed as a curse to become a gift, to work compassionately in other men's lives. So thanks, man.
Yeah, you're welcome.
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