The Porn Trap: Why Pain, Not Pleasure, Keeps You Addicted
- Jake Kastleman
- Jul 30
- 60 min read
Overcoming Porn Addiction by Healing Emotional Pain, Not Controlling Behavior
For years, I believed I had a porn problem. What I’ve come to learn—and what Chandler Rogers and I talk about in this episode—is that I didn’t have a porn problem… I had a pain problem.
If you’re like me, you’ve probably tried to discipline your way out of pornography addiction. You’ve built elaborate systems, tracked your streaks, and held yourself to impossibly high standards. But still, the cravings return. And they feel deeply confusing for you.
You’re a good man. So why do you keep going back?
This episode—and this article—digs into the deeper truth. Porn is not about pleasure. It’s about trying to soothe something you don’t know how to face. And until you understand why this 'addictive' part of you reaches for porn, sobriety will always feel fragile.
Let’s go deeper.
What Really Drives Porn Addiction?
Pain, Shame, and the Young Boy Inside
Chandler grew up in a faith-based home, striving to be a good guy. The expectations weren’t necessarily forced on him, but he felt them deeply. Get straight A’s. Be a leader. Be a light.
Underneath that perfectionism, though, was something far more human: a young boy longing to be seen and valued—imperfections and all.
That story isn’t unique. I’ve heard it from so many men—and lived it myself. I remember moving at age four and feeling the emotional chaos ripple through my entire family. I was too young to process it consciously, but I felt the sadness, fear, and overwhelm. And with nowhere to put it, I checked out.
Eventually, I found ways to numb it. First with food and video games. Then with porn. And later, with sex and drugs.
Not because I wanted pleasure—but because I didn’t know how to handle pain.
The Broken Recovery Trap
When “White-Knuckling Sobriety” Is Just Another Form of Control
When I first got sober, I managed my recovery with an iron grip. I tracked everything. Obsessed over doing it perfectly. I thought that was strength—but it was just another part of me trying to control the fear, shame, and anger beneath the surface.
Chandler describes this as “death-gripping recovery.” I lived it for the first 7 years or so of my recovery. And I’ll be honest—it kept me sober. But it also made me rigid, emotionally unavailable, and painfully disconnected from my wife.
This isn’t real recovery. It’s incomplete recovery. Because the minute you let go of control, all those exiled parts of you—fear, sadness, anger—come roaring back.
You don’t heal by dominating your emotions. You heal by listening to them.
Real Recovery Requires Self-Awareness
Learning to Work With, Not Against, Your Inner World
What changed everything for me was learning about Internal Family Systems (IFS therapy). It taught me that I’m not broken—I just have parts of my personality that are out of balance, taking on roles to try to cope:
The manager parts of me tried to keep everything in control.
The firefighter parts tried to escape pain through porn.
And the exile part? That was the little boy inside me—scared, ashamed, and alone.
Once I stopped demonizing those parts and started listening to them, I found something I’d been missing: compassion for myself.
As Chandler said so powerfully, “We don’t really have a porn problem. We have a pain problem.” And pain doesn’t get healed by shame, control, or streak counts. It gets healed by acceptance, curiosity, and connection.
Why Porn Feels Safer Than Real Connection
The Fear of Rejection—and the Shortcut to False Intimacy
One of the biggest reasons we keep returning to porn is because it offers connection without the risk of rejection.
Think about it. Real relationships are hard. People disappoint us. They misunderstand us. They have their own emotions and pain. Porn doesn’t.
Porn says, “Come as you are. No mess. No emotional work. No chance of getting hurt.”
But it’s a lie. Because porn gives you the illusion of intimacy while reinforcing your deepest fears: that you’re unlovable, that connection is dangerous, that you’ll never be enough.
True healing means risking real connection. With your wife. With your brothers. With God. And with yourself.
Healing Relationships After Porn Addiction
Understanding Her Pain Without Losing Your Dignity
A lot of men I coach are months into sobriety and still feel like they’re failing in their marriages. Their wives are angry, distant, critical—and it doesn’t feel fair. “She’s stuck in the past,” they say. “Can’t she see how much I’ve changed?”
What we often miss is that her anger is a protective part of her.
She’s carrying grief, fear, and shame of her own. Years—sometimes decades—of pain were dropped on her all at once the day you disclosed your addiction. And while you’re healing, she’s still in trauma.
The solution? Compassion, boundaries, and time. You’re allowed to protect your dignity. But you also need to understand that healing betrayal trauma takes longer than you think.
Connection Is the Cure
Why Group Support and Vulnerability Are Essential
Chandler is the founder of the Relay App—a group-based recovery platform designed to help men build real connection without shame. And I love what he’s doing.
Because here’s the truth: You cannot do this alone.
Group support forces you to be vulnerable. To be seen. To tell the truth without editing. And that’s where healing happens. When you learn that your story doesn’t disqualify you—but invites others into freedom too.
Surrender: The Turning Point in Porn Recovery
Why Letting Go of Control Is Where Real Change Begins
Most men trying to quit porn double down on control. They track every behavior, count streaks, and micromanage their routine—thinking this will finally end the cycle. I used to think the same way. But I’ve learned that porn recovery isn’t about perfection—it’s about surrender.
When Chandler Rogers described his “death grip on recovery,” I knew exactly what he meant. That relentless self-monitoring isn’t strength. It’s fear. And fear doesn’t lead to lasting sexual sobriety.
To truly overcome porn addiction, we have to lay down our weapons. Surrender doesn’t mean giving up—it means giving our pain a place to breathe. When we surrender our addiction, we finally begin real emotional healing, open the door to spiritual growth, and reconnect with what actually matters.
The Shame Cycle: Reclaiming Your Sexuality Without Guilt
Rewriting the Inner Script That Keeps You Stuck
For most men raised in religious or high-pressure environments, shame around sexuality is baked into their identity. We’re taught to fear lust, suppress desire, and link our worth to flawless behavior. But shame doesn’t heal you—it fuels the cycle.
To truly heal from porn addiction, we have to release the fear-based theology that says sexual desire is dirty. Sexual integrity doesn’t come from repression. It comes from connection—with your values, your body, and your heart.
When you start relating to your sexuality with compassion rather than judgment, you dissolve the shame cycle. You stop bouncing between indulgence and self-punishment. And that’s when you begin to reclaim a joyful, integrated, spiritually-aligned approach to sex and desire.
Masculine Leadership Starts with Vulnerability
Why Real Recovery Requires You to Be Seen
Here’s something most men don’t expect to hear in porn addiction recovery: your ability to lead your life starts with vulnerability.
We’re taught that real men are unshakable—stoic, emotionally guarded, always in control. But the truth is, that mindset is what keeps most men stuck in secret. The most transformative shifts happen when we get honest, raw, and open.
Group support—whether through the Relay App, 12-step meetings, or coaching—is where this work begins. It creates a space for us to stop performing and start connecting. Vulnerability isn’t weakness. It’s strength in its truest, most grounded form.
If you want to fix your relationship, rebuild trust, and truly overcome porn addiction, you have to lead from your core. That means feeling, not just functioning.
Porn Addiction Is Disconnection. Recovery Is Reconnection.
Why We Must Rebuild Our Relationships with Self, Others, and God
When I look back at every relapse, it always came after the same thing: disconnection. From myself. From my wife. From God.
Porn promises relief, comfort, connection. But it delivers isolation. And that’s why the real work of porn addiction recovery isn’t just about quitting a behavior—it’s about rebuilding connection at every level.
You need to reconnect with your emotions through parts work and mindfulness. Reconnect with others through vulnerability and group therapy. Reconnect with God through surrender and presence.
This threefold connection—self, others, and God—is one of the foundational pillars of lasting porn recovery. It’s not about managing urges. It’s about reclaiming the relationships addiction tried to fabricate.
Leading With Compassion and Courage
A Call to the Masculine Heart
As men, we’ve been taught that strength means stoicism, that control equals virtue, and that emotion is weakness. But true masculine leadership is something very different.
It’s the strength to be still in discomfort. The courage to look inward and get honest. The humility to listen when your wife is hurting inside or criticizing you. The leadership to seek support when you feel lost.
You don’t need to fix everything. But you do need to lead your life with awareness, compassion, and presence.
And that starts with facing your pain—not escaping it.
God bless and much love.
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Full Transcription of Podcast Episode 105: The Porn Trap: Why Pain, Not Pleasure, Keeps You Addicted (with Chandler Rogers)
Jake Kastleman (00:01.159)
Shannon, you're welcome. It's awesome to have you here on the show,
Chandler Rogers (00:04.174)
Hey Jake, thanks so much for having me man. Glad to be here.
Jake Kastleman (00:06.491)
Yeah, yeah. Well, ever since our last conversation and just getting to know you more, I've been really, really excited about this discussion today. I think that you have a ton of wisdom to offer people and just so much to say about connection and being able to be vulnerable and open with people in a group or getting support and so many other things that we discussed and talked about that I think are going to be of huge use to men. So again, awesome.
Awesome to have you, So I wanna really start with, you've been open on other shows about your own journey through porn addiction, right? Can you share a bit about your story with us, including some of the core wounds or drivers that were behind your addiction and a couple of kind of the most important discoveries that you made along the way.
Chandler Rogers (00:37.858)
Yeah.
Chandler Rogers (01:02.882)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in a very
Faith-based household and pornography was something that we talked about it was something that I remember learning from a young age was bad or sinful or not good You know, I I feel like at the time I had no idea what that really meant like what if pornography really mean I was the oldest of five kids. We moved around a lot grown up and you know, I was really involved in sports and music I played the piano And moving around a lot. I felt like I had a lot of different friend groups. So I felt like whether it was
socially or with academics or sports or music, I felt like I could excel in whatever I needed to and wanted to. And maybe I felt a sense of pressure and like looking back. And I'm not sure if that pressure was really over from my parents per se, but I felt, I felt like the need to be a good guy, a good person, and that those expectations were there, whether they were intrinsic or external.
And so I was in the age where Instagram and Facebook were really coming online and getting popular when I was a teenager. And so I had a phone, and Instagram was just brand new, kinda coming out. I didn't have to go looking for anything, Jake. It kinda found me. I always thought I'm never going to struggle with whatever that is. Whatever pornography is, that's not gonna be me.
That's not in line with who I see myself to be. And it was a gradual process. Like I actually cannot remember looking back one specific moment where that habit had developed or that I was exposed to hardcore pornography. I think it was a very subtle like sexualization of lots of content on Instagram, being fed a lot of sexualized content and slowly just being curious, right, as a teenage boy. I think I was maybe a freshman in high school.
Chandler Rogers (03:00.878)
I think before I knew it, I like to say I kind of like woke up a year and a half later and realized that it had gotten deeper and deeper and deeper and addiction had really set in. And what I mean by that is I felt powerless in my ability to stop. I had tried multiple times intentionally. I don't want to be doing this, but the more aware I got of that, the less I feel like I had any control.
And that was frustrating. It was frustrating for a kid who saw myself as someone who could be competent, who could excel in whatever I put my mind to, to feel like there was this hidden part of me that if only people knew, felt like it was spiraling more and more out of control. In many ways, I don't feel like my story's that unique or that special to anyone else. It's like, you know, probably the way that people perceive me, like I, you know, I won some team leadership awards on our track and cross country team. I...
graduated with straight A's, like people probably did see me as put together and I felt that. I felt like that burden of the external perception of Chandler that felt so at odds with what was happening behind closed doors and feeling so shameful about it. I don't feel like I really, like I think back and I'm like, I, did I hate myself? Was I experiencing any sort of that really self-loathing or?
intense shame that can often accompany this problem. And I feel like I wasn't even aware of the shame I had. Like I felt like I did still like myself, but I felt like I could never be satisfied because this one area of my life was lagging behind where I wanted it to be. I was never satisfied. I continue to feel like this lack of not enough, not where I want to be. And that aided me. I don't know if you want me to keep going, but eventually I did do something about it.
Jake Kastleman (04:53.371)
Yeah, you bring up so many things, man. And I'm looking down here because I'm writing down notes because I think there's so many points you're making there that are just on point and so key. Like things that I see working with men one on one and that I've seen working in this field that you've seen, I'm sure, just constant, the same themes. One thing in there that I think that I see is perfectionism would be one word for it, right? And you talk about
Chandler Rogers (05:18.894)
Totally.
Jake Kastleman (05:22.653)
feeling the burden of being a good person, right? And I think it's interesting because I've reflected on this a lot. That's such a positive thing. Like the core of that is so good. Like it is good to strive for goodness and to be, you know, to have ambition and to, you know, have high standards and want to be a great person, make a huge difference. But I think that there is
an imbalance in that, like there's a piece of that that just, we go off in a direction that really is extremely toxic. Where you're at now, are you able to kind of perceive where we go wrong with that versus what is healthy and good about that? Like a good way to approach that versus what we do that gets us in trouble and actually turns us to addiction. It's one of the drivers behind addiction.
Chandler Rogers (06:15.256)
Yeah.
Chandler Rogers (06:20.558)
Yeah, I think what's interesting is I think that that perfectionism that drive that ambition what whatever you want to call it that desire to be good I think was really masking a true underlying need to just feel more deeply seen and appreciated and approved of And I think as human beings, this isn't an addiction thing. This is a human thing We all want to be loved. We want to be seen deeply for who we are. We want to be accepted We want to be enough we want to be
Jake Kastleman (06:38.621)
Hmm.
Chandler Rogers (06:49.26)
viewed as good and beautiful and acceptable and that need is most present in our earliest years with our caregivers, with our mother, father, anyone else, know, precious and important to us in our lives and later on in our social groups. And so this is kind of bridging towards, you know, things that I've learned over the last decade in my own recovery journey and building my company now with Relay and helping lots of guys through this process, realizing that I think for my own story.
On the outside, sure, maybe I had this personality, this tendency to, yeah, to drive towards ambition and to work hard and be a contributing member of society. And I care a lot about people too. So I felt like relationships were always very important to me and wanting to show up, you know, healthy in relationships. But I think it was masking, truly. There was a little boy within me that was really just wanting to be seen a little bit deeper, wanting to be heard a little bit more, wanting to be appreciated a little bit more.
And I think, where we go wrong, a lot of us, I think a lot of guys that have dealt with sexual addiction, when they try to understand, you know, where was the trauma, where was the pain that can explain how I got into this mess, a lot of times I hear, and this was my story, kind of a confused look of, I don't know, man, I felt like I had a pretty good life. I felt like my family was pretty good. Maybe sometimes, and there's, I want to also recognize, there are for sure, you know, many of you listening who might say, no, I recognize different parts of my childhood that...
you know, I didn't get those needs met fully that a kid may need or, you know, my parents were divorced, I went through abuse or things that are what we would call capital T trauma. think for me, I was confused for a long time, man, cause I was like, I don't feel like I had any of that, like major significant events where I obviously maybe experienced some emotional pain that may have contributed to this coping with pornography use. But I look back and I realized that maybe what was going on under the surface was just.
you know, 10 % where I didn't get that need met fully or 20 % where my parents doing the best they could, you know, were able to love me and take care of me, but didn't fully attune to what I fully needed. And that's not to blame them. That's not their fault. That's called, you know, broken, broken human beings that are all imperfect because we all came from families that have some, some minor degree or major degree of imperfection. And I think
Chandler Rogers (09:12.364)
Jake, the key with all of this is being patient and curious and studying our stories and realizing there may not be one obvious answer, but that's okay. The more that we can get curious and start to peel back these smaller layers, I think it gives us a better picture at the true needs that we can meet in healthier ways.
Jake Kastleman (09:31.587)
It's so good. I, some of my listeners have probably heard this before, but, know, for me, I know when I was four years old, my family moved from California to Utah and I was way too young to understand the emotional impact of that. And I don't just mean on me. I mean, on my entire family, had older siblings that were very upset and very sad about this move. They left.
their community, their friends, everything that they knew to go to a completely unfamiliar place. All right. My parents were making this. They didn't want to make this decision, but they were doing it for my dad's work and you know, reasons that they had to go. Right. And so at that time I, I've perceived this much later in life through doing EMDR work and some really deep parts work, um, to be able to understand what I went through at that time. And it was an extremely significant experience for me emotionally.
Chandler Rogers (10:13.56)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (10:30.893)
actually, because I, I kind of detached from it entirely as far as like friends that I left or think like, just couldn't process that. So I think I just kind of checked out. And then my siblings and my parents who were under massive stress. my father's been in the porn addiction recovery realm for over 20 years now. He was dealing with a pornography addiction. So he was going through that stress.
Chandler Rogers (10:42.818)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (10:58.499)
My mother was dealing with betrayal trauma. My father was also in this state of flux with his career and high uncertainty, right? Seeking out this very unsure opportunity. So there's the financial stress. And my siblings are all suffering with the grief and loss of their friends. And especially my oldest brother is just filled with a lot of anger because he's like 14, 15 in this really vulnerable age, right? And I, as a kid, I'm...
It bothers me when people say, you know, I'm so emotive or I'm an empath. So I don't want to necessarily say that, but I think, I think I really felt that. And I don't want to use that term because I think we can, I think we all have kind of this capacity to really feel what others are feeling ultimately, however prominent that may be for us. But I think I felt it. Like I felt the stress. I felt the overwhelm, the sadness, the anger of my siblings and my parents. And I think I just had no way of.
understanding or perceiving that. And so what I did is I escaped to video games and I escaped to food. Those were two of my primary sources of trying to feel okay. And then eventually, you know, 10 years later, almost that evolves into pornography addiction and then evolved into drug addiction later and addiction to sex and all these things, right. And it was just that, that slow slope and it
This is one of the core things that I think happened at a young age that I would not have perceived as traumatic, right? But it really was extremely, extremely loaded. Mm-hmm.
Chandler Rogers (12:30.2)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what's the big deal? Yeah, yeah, I think it's probably really easy to say that I was four and we moved and that's normal, but that so much sense of what you're saying.
Jake Kastleman (12:41.575)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yeah, so for those who don't know, tell them what you do on the Relay app. And then I wanna come back to some other things we're talking about. for those who don't know about Relay, talk about that.
Chandler Rogers (12:53.282)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the key part of my story was I ended up finding a group and finding a support in a group based environment. so later on when I was, you know, starting my career, I had some background in tech and startups and I taught myself to code on the side, but I didn't see myself, you know, wanting to just be an engineer, be a developer. But I was really drawn towards,
building, building software. And at the same time, I had continued to gain a conviction over the years of the fact that we can't do this alone. We absolutely need other help, other people outside of ourselves to help us heal, to help us navigate this process and breaking free and finding, finding long-term change. And so I had the opportunity to create an app. So Relay is an app that
allows people to get mashed into a group. it's trying to lower the barriers. So a lot of the guys that I talked to were really scared to go to a group because it meant having to go in person somewhere and show their face or having to show up on a zoom call and show their face. And so for a lot of people realize kind of a first place that they can start to step into a group, step into a supportive community. So everything in the app revolves around that experience of connection and
trying to create a more holistic and shame-free environment for accountability, giving an environment to practice and implement the skills needed to help build a healthier life again.
Jake Kastleman (14:22.663)
And then I will say it truly is something impressive. You know, the things that I've seen about and what you guys do, it's helping a ton of people. So I love it, man. I love it. one of the things, you know, we need other people makes me think of my recovery journey. And I have a bit of a unique journey there where I was actually sober for years before I really joined a group and got into, I got into 12 step and started meeting with guys. And it's interesting how.
Chandler Rogers (14:29.006)
Thanks, man.
Jake Kastleman (14:52.431)
I had stayed sober before that, but it was really based on what I would say from an IFS perspective. It's like a manager approach to sobriety. And this is talked about in a lot of circles where I just sat the manager parts of me on top of every other part and just said, how I stay sober is productivity structure being on point, doing everything right. That is how I stay sober. So about the first.
Chandler Rogers (14:59.406)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (15:19.709)
Mmm, six years of my sobriety was not I wouldn't say was that like it's not a black and white thing, but was a lot of that and That was torture for my wife Because when you live sobriety that way you're very tense and you're very uptight Right so in controlling right because I was trying to control myself all the time I've got these parts of me that are just trying to control everything about my life
And when I got into a group, that was when I had to go through process to get humbled, which I was kind of compelled to be humble, if you will, through various circumstances. And then I got humble enough to say the way I'm doing things isn't working. I can see it's not working. Cause I could see I still had an addictive mindset, which was very much about this control and other dynamics. What are your thoughts about that?
Chandler Rogers (16:13.153)
Yeah.
Hmm. Well, I, for one, I can relate with that a hundred percent. So it's been over 10 years since I joined my first group and group was the very first thing I ever did in terms of getting help. I didn't really have any knowledge of the, the neuroscience, you know, how addiction works in the brain, any, any of that. so group was my first experience, but I would say similarly to you, probably the first five, six of those years was a very,
manager-like approach and I'm curious just listening to you man the question comes up for me would you call that white knuckling or do you feel like that's different than white knuckling what you're describing
Jake Kastleman (16:52.605)
I wouldn't call it white knuckling. I would call it broken recovery. I'd call it like incomplete recovery. Because one of the main things that I learned, and it took me a while to learn this, but I learned that recovery very much is based in self-awareness. In other words, I was trying to suppress and distract from painful emotion.
Chandler Rogers (16:58.05)
Thanks.
Jake Kastleman (17:20.955)
like anger or sadness or fear. I would just try to replace it all the time and just be productive, be on point. Don't think about the negative things.
Chandler Rogers (17:25.314)
Yeah.
Chandler Rogers (17:29.998)
Don't leave room for it outrun it. Yeah
Jake Kastleman (17:32.347)
Yeah, exactly. And that's what I was doing. And I managed to do it. I managed to stay sober, but I still had this addictive mindset where I'm trying to outrun all the painful emotions. So real recovery, one of its roots, I believe, is the self-awareness where I'm deeply aware of and consistently practicing like acceptance and compassion and understanding of
things like anger and sadness and fear and shame and learning how to relate to these parts of me that carry these feelings and relate to these feelings in a way that's not suppressing them or pushing them away, but just seeking to be present with them and understand them.
Chandler Rogers (18:14.99)
That's beautiful, Yeah, I often say, you know, we don't really have a porn problem. We have a pain problem. And the reason I think that that is so foundational to understand is like, it's that shift of it's not trying to control behavior to get to some 90 day threshold or a hundred day threshold where you can feel like you've kicked it. It's learning how to hold space for those parts that are carrying those emotions because they're signals. They are.
Jake Kastleman (18:22.556)
like that.
Chandler Rogers (18:44.934)
There's more going on underneath this iceberg. We're just looking at the part above the water of, if you imagine an iceberg, and we think that's what we got to attack it. That's the problem. It's the porn, it's the masturbation, it's the acting out in whatever way that that looks like. But there's so much more going on under the surface. And I feel like just as I'm listening to you, it's like if we really are just only trying to manage that tip of the iceberg instead of really trying to tune into and learn how to work with those parts underneath.
Like are we really healing or are we just kind of, yeah, broken recovery is a really, really powerful phrase. I like that. Broken recovery. It's not bad. It's like you're doing the right things, but it's incomplete. I like that.
Jake Kastleman (19:29.745)
Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that I think of Chandler is what we're really seeking through porn. We're talking about some of that here. why, if you can talk more to why do men see, and women too, but we're going to speak specifically to men here. That's vast majority. Why do we seek it out? What's really what we're searching for in pornography?
Chandler Rogers (19:56.994)
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think everyone's story has, has a nuanced answer to this, right? but you know, for me and my story, you know, I was probably seeking comfort. was probably seeking an easier access and easier portal to feel good because it's hard to feel good when I'm carrying all of these responsibilities. When.
Jake Kastleman (20:19.773)
Mm-hmm.
Chandler Rogers (20:25.174)
no matter how hard I work, know, and my parents, I know they love me and I know that they are proud of me, but I don't feel that 100%. And that's not their fault. It's just how I'm experiencing that as a young boy. So I'm seeking an easier path to feeling enough, to feeling comfort. I think, especially maybe we talk about men in relationships. I know this is a problem for men in a relationship and single.
I think a lot of times people think, you know, once I'm married, this will all go away because it's about sex. It's about the desire that is a sexual desire.
that needs to be met, to have an orgasm, to feel that release biologically. And I think, I'm not gonna try to argue whether there's some truth in that or not, but I think it's a misdirection because I think what a lot of men in relationships who have access to intimacy in all its forms, not just sexual intimacy, but it's like you have access to somebody who supposedly loves you if you're in a relationship or you have the opportunity to have a loving, healthy relationship.
But it's hard, that's the truth. Having a good relationship, experiencing real connection in close relationship is almost harder than having a good connection with a buddy who I'm not in a romantic relationship with because the closer we get to someone, the more intimate that relationship gets, the more our differences are seen, the more our brokenness is seen, the more this discomfort comes out and all of that I think makes it really difficult.
to get our emotional needs met and what happens when that path is difficult? Well from a young age my brain learned that there's this easy shortcut over here that is actually way easier and I'll just speak for me man I've been married six years.
Chandler Rogers (22:13.198)
I still feel like it's sometimes hard no matter how hard I try to learn my wife's communication style, it still sometimes feels hard to get my emotional needs met. It's like I'm trying to communicate my feelings a little bit better, because I know that that's not a skill that I was really good at. So I'm trying to flex those muscles. But man, I'm so disappointed when I work hard and I try to do the right things and I'm taking care of myself and I'm trying to help communicate in healthier ways. But maybe she's just having a bad day and so she responds in a way that makes me feel like crap.
So my immediate natural man instinct is, well screw that man, like that feels sucky because I'm working hard and this path that has all this resistance isn't leading to the fruit that I just wanna feel, I wanna feel comfort, I wanna feel like, you know, wrapped around and I wanna feel loved and I'm not saying I don't feel that in my relationship ever, but what I'm saying is it's often hard and I think this applies both in and out of a romantic relationship. Getting your needs met is hard.
Jake Kastleman (23:05.041)
Yeah, sure.
Chandler Rogers (23:12.492)
I think especially for men, we were not taught how to be aware of our true underlying emotional needs and how to meet those needs healthily. But our brains in the world told us that there is a cheap way that can meet those needs. But it's a lie, it's fleeting as we all know, it leaves us feeling like, you know, the flame burns out in two seconds and then it leaves us feeling worse than before.
Jake Kastleman (23:35.087)
And it makes me think it's like, no, nobody can be that, that anchor, like that center of feeling emotionally. Okay. Like nobody external to me can be that someone can really help and be of, mean, they can, they can be very helpful in that way, but no one 100 % of the time can be that for us. You know,
Chandler Rogers (23:55.842)
Yeah. Can we speak? Well, there's one more point that I've noticed. So especially guys, think who do start taking their own recovery seriously. They take ownership and they recognize, I've got stuff to work on. I know that, you know, there's some bigger things that are, you know, keeping me stuck and I'm willing to own that. And if I'm in a relationship and it's created this betrayal, this broken trust, I see a lot of guys, especially in our community who are
very seriously committed to trying to get themselves healthy. And so they do, they start on this path, And one month in, two month in, they're seeing all these aha moments, the light bulbs are turning on, they're feeling hope for the first time in years, and they feel like some things are starting to shift. But I look over here and my wife is still experiencing all of this hurt and this pain, and the way that she's treating me, the way that she's bringing her pain to me, doesn't feel like it lines up, doesn't feel completely justified with.
where I'm at right now in this present moment. But another part of me also knows that it's still kind of fair that she feels that way because of what I did and what I'm owning that I did in the past. So I've noticed this like real like disharmony, this real incongruence for guys that start getting into recovery where it feels very uncomfortable when I feel like I am starting to take ownership where I realize that no one else can help me feel what I need to feel, but it's still hard. Like she's bringing me all this stuff.
You know, or I'm just experiencing stressors in life. It's not always just relationship. You know, I lose a job, you know, there's stuff happening with family that's hard or whatever is uncomfortable. And I think even though I know in my head that no one else can help meet these needs, I think it can feel really overwhelming realizing like, how do I possibly hold space for this much discomfort, this much messiness around me when I'm just trying so hard to like stay in my lane and like get my own work together, get my own crap together?
I don't know if you have thoughts on that Jake or I don't know if we want to go down this path but it feels like that in kind of the medium term recovery gets really hard for a lot of guys.
Jake Kastleman (26:02.183)
It's extremely painful and I see it all the time. It's, and I'll see guys that they've been sober for eight months and their wife is still just bitter and hurt and vengeful and insulting, right? And as I say all those words, those are harsh words because it feels very harsh for that man. But I think...
Parts work has helped me a lot with this and understanding those wives, those spouses, right? The amount of hurt that they're carrying when a woman is bitter or vengeful or biting or insulting, critical, these are protective reactions. It's parts of her trying to protect her because she's carrying all this pain. I always say fear, shame, grief. Those are the three big ones.
She's carrying fears about the future or will he relapse? Will it happen again? Will I get hurt worse? Therefore, if I can just criticize or judge or try to control him and make sure he doesn't do this again, right? Or the shame of, you know, I don't feel good enough. I don't match up to all these women that he's seen and the ways that he betrayed me, et cetera, all these challenges with self-worth that she's carrying, the grief.
The grief, let's not forget that, the sadness about everything that you lost over years. not just like when a man comes to his wife after 20 years of being addicted to pornography and says, hey, I have this thing I need to tell you about. Here's this addiction I've been struggling with. She's hit with 20 years of lies and deception. It's extremely traumatic. And so...
Chandler Rogers (27:46.008)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (27:49.583)
If he's been addicted for 20 years or five or whatever it is, and it's now been eight months of sobriety, that pain is still often very present for her because it was years of pain heaped on her all at once. And this massive lie revealed, or again, 20 years of lies revealed in a moment, that's traumatic. And that requires healing on her part, right? That she has to own.
but it's extremely painful on both sides for different reasons. And it's extremely painful for that man to try to connect with and understand as he's making so many changes, he's getting so much better. My wife is still there and I need to, ooh, it's tough, it's loaded, but I need to show up and be compassionate. And I'll say, I also need to have boundaries of being treated like human being.
Right. And not just saying, I caused her pain. Therefore I deserve everything I'm getting. I see that a lot. There's a lot to be said on that, obviously. Yeah. So I want to, I want to kind of go back Chandler to, to, connection with other people. This is something you really specialize in with the relay app and what you help men do. So specifically being vulnerable, which is a real struggle.
Chandler Rogers (28:49.518)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (29:12.221)
for a lot of people in general, I think specifically for men, we face this a lot. Women are often able to, they're more emotionally attuned. They tend to be more, and we can build that too, but they more naturally are emotionally attuned. We tend to be more checked out from or not attuned with our emotion. Can you talk about the walls that we put up that really lead to that isolation that keeps us from connecting?
and kind of what's behind the walls, like any of those walls that we put up as men and what you see.
Chandler Rogers (29:47.65)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'll go back to like, we all have this core human need to be seen, to be loved, to be accepted. And vulnerability is letting people see us in our totality with maybe more, more high resolution, more complete detail, which includes details that we may or may not be proud of that may or may not be.
I don't like the words good or bad, but like, the thing about vulnerability that I think keeps so many walls up for so many guys is if I let those walls down, there's a higher chance that you won't like me, that you might push me away, that you might reject me. This happens all the time, like in little ways. Maybe I'll give a specific example. Like, so I've had to...
Jake Kastleman (30:16.582)
Mm-hmm.
Chandler Rogers (30:36.734)
in the process of building Relay, you know, go and pitch to investors and rally investors to help, you know, help fund the company early on. And I never had this experience, but, you know, I ended up talking with many, many different investors. And when I would sit down in some of those conversations, you know, I know that they're evaluating me, they're evaluating...
this idea they're evaluating is pornography a problem? Many of them, right, if you think about just the normal world out there, a lot of them think pornography is okay. Or it seems like the world accepts that. I actually think a lot more people than we realize have noticed the harms that it causes. But in these meetings, I noticed parts of myself like Jake when I would show up.
like wanting to filter and like, you could call these lies of omission, but just being very, it was very subconscious, like being careful on how I craft my words in the pitch because I, it's like I didn't want them to see me in a way that would make me feel invalidated or rejected. And it wasn't that I was scared that my idea for the app wasn't good. It's like, if something core to me was challenged, like something core to me, like am I really credentialed enough? You know, I was.
in my young 20s when I started this company.
you know, went to a faith based university. So even I know a lot of investors, you know, I didn't want to be seen as like, this is just a religious thing. You know, people outside of Christian community, this isn't a problem. Like, so I would notice those parts of me trying to manage and like be very careful about how much information or what parts of me could be seen because I want to be presented as like, you know, whatever would get approval in that moment. That's a very specific example, but I think we do this all the time when we show up, whether it's a stranger that we meet for the first time and
Chandler Rogers (32:19.982)
It's like, are you doing? And we choose to share certain things, but we often don't choose to share certain things. Because if I come out and share what's really on my mind or what's really going on, good, bad, or indifferent, I might be judged.
You know, some men may not relate with this. may feel like, maybe, you know, people pleasers might feel this way, but I don't feel this way. I think we all have a deep rooted need where we want to be seen fully for who we are. And, and I think with vulnerability, it's a muscle that wasn't exercised. think it's a muscle that in our own families and our own peer groups, we learned that certain things would make us get laughed at or certain things would get us in trouble or certain things would get more approval than others. And so we learned to adapt. You know, society taught me that if I.
like I like to think there's a genuine part of me that wanted to care about all of the friends I had on the track and cross country team. And that's why I won that leadership award for being a good friend. But I think there was another part of me that realized that I could get some sort of recognition, by how I could empathize and support and cheer on others. so.
I don't think any of these things are inherently good or bad, but it's recognizing that there's nuance to these parts that the way that I showed up was influenced by these subconscious ways that I wanted to be perceived as enough. And I think that that directly relates to how vulnerable and authentic we're able to be.
Jake Kastleman (33:45.499)
And I love that so much. I think this again with parts and this is so crucial in an understanding for ourselves and this self-awareness piece that I was referring to earlier, where if I can actually look at myself and modern Western psychology has not done a great job of helping us see ourselves this way, but it is now, now with IFS and some other things that have come forth.
us being able to see ourselves in parts and like really have a high degree of acceptance for, for ourselves. Like if one part of me, as you were saying, you're showing up for your team out of truly out of like love care, wanting to do the right thing, wanting people to feel happy. True. You've got that part in you, then you've got another part of you that's kind of image conscious, right? And it's like, I could get accolades and awards and be recognized for this. And I think it's so crucial what you say about the good and bad.
right, where you're like, I'm not gonna label this as good or bad. These are just parts of me where I can step back. I think I see the truth of like, yeah, there's a part of me that like wants to manipulate and like get like get recognition, but that's not an inherently bad part of me. Like if I did not have a part of me at all that cared about image whatsoever, that's probably not great. Like I do, I should have a part that's conscious of that, right?
Chandler Rogers (35:07.052)
Totally. When I think back to like I moved seven times growing up and I don't think I realized the impact of those moves either. I felt like fun, a new adventure, I'll miss my friends, some amount of sadness, but it didn't feel overly sad or it didn't stay super long. But it surely had an impact on certain parts of me where I show up to a new school and I learned that.
Jake Kastleman (35:22.023)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chandler Rogers (35:29.324)
when I'm talking to the football kids versus talking to the band kids, like I can present myself a different way to try to fit in, to try to make friends, to try to find belonging. And there's parts of that that's like really genuine that I, you know, in those moments, you know, channeling what I felt like was appropriate for that group of people. But then there's another part of me that is like, you know, probably...
Yeah, it's trying to manage, we don't want to get rejected, so we got to like do this dance and make sure that we're like knowing who we're talking to and try to like help us fit in. So it's totally, yeah, it's not a good or bad thing, but it's just being aware of like vulnerability at its core is like, I don't think it's necessarily.
sharing everything with everyone. I think sometimes that's how it's maybe perceived if I have to share my deepest, most uncomfortable thoughts and secrets with everybody. But I think it's developing the skill to be able to share more fully and more completely what all parts of us are experiencing. And hopefully in environments where it can be safe, we can, where that vulnerability can foster connection. think vulnerability done right creates connection.
Jake Kastleman (36:39.473)
Yeah, yes. And I think kind of been touching on that parts idea where there's this image conscious part and this, this, and for those who don't know, like really the reason we're emphasizing this from a recovery perspective is like, if you have a part that's in a really extreme role of like trying to control everything and be perfect, you're going to inevitably, this is just the way that the human brain works from what I've studied and what I've seen and what other people, what experts.
talk about, you have to inevitably have a part of you that also shows up to balance out that other part that's trying to manage everything and control everything. And that other part that shows up is always going to be a part that tries to help you escape, right? Get away from the pressure, get away from the perfectionism. It's going to polarize with that manager part.
Chandler Rogers (37:35.883)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (37:37.263)
And so really the key, right, in self-awareness, if I'm able to be aware of each of these parts and get to really understand and build a really, really healthy relationship with them to where I can be the leader over them rather than being controlled by them. If I don't perceive them, I don't understand them, or I hate these parts, or I demonize them, I call them bad, then they're just gonna rule my life. But if I deeply understand and appreciate each part for what it's bringing to the table,
then these parts can calm down, they become less extreme. And over time, it's like a lifetime pursuit, but over time, they can become more and more integrated into my personality and harmonize with one another. Where they're not stepping up in extreme ways, but it's like, yeah, I've got an image conscious part of me that wants to present myself a certain way. That's a valuable part of me. And I've got a nurturing part of me that's, know, hyper attuned to empathy and compassion and love and like doing the right thing and connecting with people.
then I've got a part of me that's like, totally like throw caution to the wind and like, let's adventure, let's go crazy, let's have fun. Like, let's just explore and take risks. Each of those parts, like if they're in proper balance and I'm able to be aware of them and appreciate each one, then I can lead and call on them as they're needed rather than anyone, you know, sabotaging my life or causing problems or trying to take control, et cetera, right? I think that's one of the biggest keys.
Chandler Rogers (39:05.229)
Totally. Man, I feel like Jake here's an IFS expert. I love IFS, by the way, this concept of parts. yeah, I hope people listening appreciate, like this for me was game changer when I realized these things. Cause I think this is what I was missing when I was kind of just managing my behaviors the first five, six years of my recovery journey. And then I really started to understand not just how to manage behaviors, but how to really integrate these parts of me and understand and appreciate them, like you're saying.
Jake Kastleman (39:35.365)
It's honestly what I live and breathe now when it comes to my mind and working through thoughts and journaling and prayer and meditation and ongoing everyday stuff, just parts work, parts work, parts work, because it is this fascinating and beautiful way to understand the mind. just without parts work, I honestly believe that I would have gotten divorced.
Like I don't think that I would be married anymore because I was like really heavily suppressing really good parts of me in favor of trying to control everything. And it just helped me really get in tune with my mind and bring out suppressed parts and, and learned. And one of the things is to become emotionally attuned to my own emotions and those of others, which is really a mirror of one another. can only be attuned to others' emotions as much as I am to my own.
So I live and breathe it, So something that's directly aligned with this Chandler and something we talked about previously that I think you had some really great things to say on. You've already just, you've touched on it briefly earlier, but is this young boy that's in every man.
I think for a lot of us, you if we've heard about inner child work, like we can be familiar with this, but I think I never really like I'd heard of inner child work previously in my life, but I'd never really been taught about it. And to consider that there's like a young boy inside every man is can feel weird for a lot of people. So I want, I want to discuss that and for just to talk about kind of this young boy in that idea first, that concept and what you have to say about.
the importance of that for us in our own mental and emotional wellness and how this relates to recovery. What's important about this young boy that resides inside us.
Chandler Rogers (41:35.468)
Yeah, yeah, I think it's extremely important. I find for myself and many other men that this concept of how do I love myself more, we often think of that as me in the present day. you know, I'm 42 years old, 55 years old, whatever your age is. I'm thinking about me right now and I'm thinking about the history of all the years of my life before this. And it feels...
Maybe it feels complicated because I am aware of all of the imperfections, all of the mistakes, all of the shame. I like the fear, shame, and grief. I think that can apply for when we are just thinking about our adult self and trying to figure out how to love and invest in our own healing today as adults. It can feel heavy. There's a lot of things to it. We're often very biased, I think, towards our present circumstances. If my marriage is blowing up right now.
if I'm being accused of all these things, if I'm taking ownership for this history of 20 years of pain that I'm, you know, with my addiction that I'm coming to own and to work on, it's a lot. I kind of think that connecting with the inner child within us is almost a shortcut to really tune into our most deepest core needs. Like, because for many of us, the behaviors, the things we struggle with today,
They aren't really a reflection of our current environment. They're a reflection of our whole story, our whole history going back to when we were born and even before we were born. has a lot to do with those who came before us and the family and the environment we were born into. And so if we understand that our current problem is not really a 2025 problem when we're recording this podcast, it's a...
history and accumulation of all of the previous years of my life, then I think it's really helpful to almost go back to that early version of ourselves, that young boy, and to find a way to connect to what that little boy needs to hear and that little boy needs to see. I think this can be an abstract concept. I want to acknowledge that. It can feel maybe a little woo-woo, a little weird. One thing that's helped me, Jake, like we talked about the example.
Chandler Rogers (43:46.518)
of maybe a betrayed partner who's like a spouse coming with lots of, you know, bitterness or anger or grief or sadness. When my wife is coming to me and she's upset, it's very easy to see the adult her. My wife's name is Jade. So I see Jade as her present day self and I just see a grown woman that's really upset with me and all of these parts within me are getting defensive, they're trying to protect.
parts within myself. I had a therapist I work with who gave me some brilliant piece of advice and he said, in those moments where you're in relationship with someone and you're feeling like they're perpetrating against you, meaning they are treating you inappropriately, they are coming at you unjustly or whatever the situation is, to kind of see through the smoke screen, to think about it like a smoke screen. It's not really, I'm not really engaging with this adult spouse in front of me.
Jake Kastleman (44:38.109)
you
Chandler Rogers (44:44.536)
there's really a little girl that's in pain. So it sounds like what's coming out of her mouth is adult anger, but really it's just protecting, like you said, this wounded child within her that's been in pain or that's scared or that's feeling isolated and alone and detached. So for me, what's helped me kind of connect more with this for myself is that's actually been a really transformative just shift for me in moments of conflict in my marriage where I'm able to kind of like catch that moment.
kind of breathe and to recognize that smoke screen and realize that if she's presenting with these emotions, these heightened emotions, it's probably like there's a little girl within her that's really just trying to communicate a deeper need. And how can I hear? And when I've been able to do that and I feel like it's not any specific skill, but simply just being able to notice that, it's almost like disarming. She notices that I am actually seeing into her. I'm seeing through.
Like she doesn't really want me to hear that I'm a piece of crap or whatever it's like she's frustrated about that I did or didn't do or how I didn't communicate the right way or whatever I'm defending myself about. But I'm noticing that, hey, I can see that there's something deeper, that there's a reason that this is affecting you or that I can tell that there's something going on and I care about you. And just seeing that little girl, like actually trying to picture, I've spent time.
actually looking at pictures of my wife as a little girl and trying to develop empathy and love for her as a little girl. And I've realized how powerful that's been for myself. I've kind of, so sometimes I encourage guys to do the same thing. Like go and find pictures of yourself when you were a young kid at different ages. And I want you to just spend time trying to almost envision like you're the father for that little boy and develop a sense of love and care and just kind of being able to see.
Jake Kastleman (46:12.637)
Hmm.
Chandler Rogers (46:38.444)
that child and the invitation is just like, just pay attention to what that does for you. I think, again, it's maybe an abstract concept, but I think the goal, like why this is so important, why we care about connecting with the inner child is because it was that little boy at some point along the road didn't get his needs fully met or I didn't learn how to meet my own needs healthily enough. So later on, I found behaviors that I could escape to that were more easy to find that comfort, that relief. But the more I can connect back with
where that might have started and that boy as a real distinct person as opposed to just kind of this adult version of myself, I think it makes it a lot easier to care, to make it real, I don't know. Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (47:22.651)
Yes. It's, it's so good. It's so good. And actually what, what you've just said about seeing the young girl and my wife, it's excellent advice for me. Cause I, I've, there's been a few occasions I actually did like a meditative exercise. Funny enough, chat GPT, I was asking it for some advice on some things in my relationship and it like gave me this like meditative exercise to walk through. And I actually, like I did it and I was like crying. Like it was, it was beautiful. And part of.
Chandler Rogers (47:50.562)
Wow, that's awesome.
Jake Kastleman (47:52.349)
Part of it was seeing my wife as the young girl and what she was going through at that time, right? And very powerful. And I think for me, I've really done a lot of work on that, getting in touch with that young boy in me, right? So you're calling out the young girl in her. that's like kind of expanding my mind, like, okay, yes, that would be good for me to do the same for her. I think that's profound. But in thinking about the young boy,
I think when our wives or girlfriends, partners, whatever it might be, come to us with this anger, for me, and I think for so many men, there is that part, that young boy inside you that just like is just filled with fear and so scared and filled with like, I'm bad, I must be horrible, you're so angry, and just like cowers in fear, just, my gosh.
please don't be mad at me. Like whatever I can do for you to just not be mad at me, that's what I need to do. And I think that again, when you get into the parts work perspective of this, just, just briefly, you have that little boy that's terrified and filled with like this belief. I might be bad. Like maybe I'm a bad, a bad boy, right? That's such a young way to talk about it, but that's really kind of what that part of you says. And then you have,
Chandler Rogers (48:56.174)
Yes.
Jake Kastleman (49:19.665)
the part that is like, okay, we're just whatever we got to do to escape this. That'd be like that firefighter part. We're just going to escape it. So I'm going to take care of this little boy by helping him escape from the situation and get out of it. So that would be, yeah, put out the fire, deflect, escape, make excuses, blame. Yes, blame, whatever it takes. Then you've got another like very masculine.
Chandler Rogers (49:31.694)
But that's a fire.
Chandler Rogers (49:39.054)
on.
Jake Kastleman (49:48.219)
like very, call it, in me, call it the general that would be like, that would be like, don't talk to me this way. Like, are you, you know, and, really plays that part of like that, the hyper kind of the talk can be toxic masculinity of, of, yeah, you're going to intimidate me. I'm, I'm going to intimidate you, right. And gets angry and fired up just to try to inhibit and push her down. And so I think ultimately.
Again, the self-awareness piece, if I can step back, which this takes a lot of practice. It's never like an easy thing, but it requires breathing. And I, and I think embodiment is powerful going inside of the body and feeling inside, like holding space for all this emotion. Cause you've got, have, you have, she's getting angry. So at the core I've got, I have the fear and the feeling like I might be bad. Right? So shame, fear.
Chandler Rogers (50:24.365)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (50:46.491)
So if I'm able to kind of stand and be aware of that, and then the part of me that wants to escape and run being aware of that, and then the part of me that wants to like bulldoze and control and get angry and intimidating. So I stay aware of that. And if I can appreciate each of these parts and feel an acceptance for what they're, how they feel and what they're trying to do to protect me. Now I'm in a space of what I would call really that, that free agency. can actually make a choice now.
And I may be, it may be extremely emotionally charged and very overwhelming. So perhaps that choice is, I'm just going to be silent for now and I'm going to breathe for a bit and like step back. But if I'm aware of all of that, then I don't need to let any of those parts make the choice for me. And I think the more that I practice that I'm able to say something like what you were saying, which is, Hey, I can see.
that you're really upset and like you feel really concerned or worried about something, I'm here, can you tell me what you're actually going through? Or to lay down a boundary, hey, the way that you're talking right now, it's very hurtful for me. And like I'm feeling a ton of fear and I'm feeling a ton of shame. If we can just step back, I don't think that we should talk to each other this way, right?
Chandler Rogers (52:06.594)
Yeah. Jenna, Jenna Ramersma, who does a lot of training on IFS, she talks about speaking for our parts, like helping represent, you know, hey, I'm noticing there's a part of me that's really scared right now and being able to speak for that. So it's not, it's not telling that part to go away. It's speaking for that part, but not from that part is what she says. Speaking from that part is speaking out of that fear or speaking out of that resentment or speaking out of that, you know, that.
Jake Kastleman (52:10.589)
Hmm.
Jake Kastleman (52:19.197)
Mm.
Jake Kastleman (52:27.165)
you
Chandler Rogers (52:35.308)
hey, this isn't fair, but noticing these parts and being able to still speak for them, think is that true adult self, that free agency that you're talking about. I think it requires the skill of kind of in that moment, for me, I imagine I go into my mind and I notice that there's...
you know, maybe a little boy within me that's feeling a little rejected right now, feels unfairly treated, feels misunderstood. So my adult self in my brain, I'm kind of putting my arm around him and saying, hey man, like it's okay. She probably doesn't mean that. Like there's probably some parts of her that are feeling, you know, something and like we'll be okay. So I'm trying to help, you know, I'm connecting and I'm recognizing that there's a younger part of me that does maybe feel.
some of those things and then I recognize that those firefighters are also trying their best to like, they're ready to take, I love the movie Inside Out, you know, the red angry one is ready to take the control panel and say, you know, don't you dare and we're gonna, you know, we're gonna fix this and it's like, can see that part too and say, hey buddy, like that's okay, we're not gonna go smash all the buttons on the control panel. If you haven't seen the movie, you should really go watch Inside Out. This will connect a lot of these themes, I think.
Jake Kastleman (53:38.927)
It's amazing. It's amazing. It is. well, and I, and I've talked about that multiple times on the podcast inside out too is they're both fantastic, but inside out too, I think gets to some deeper, really, really serious kind of themes with the mind and the people who wrote it. Some of those people were their IFS therapists. And so they're writing from that perspective. It's really cool. It's really, cool.
Chandler Rogers (54:00.206)
Yep. Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (54:08.953)
So what do think we can do? Well, actually, I was thinking of this earlier, and I think it's important that we touch on this because we're talking about connection.
And we were talking about kind of what drives us to porn. We're talking about this young boy. I've come to understand for myself and, and I've seen this for a lot of other people that essentially what do we seek out in porn? We seek out because we're afraid of rejection. And this can be so hard for us to admit as men, I think, because that, again, that hyper masculine kind of part of us is like, don't admit to weakness. We need that part because we need to be resilient. Right.
But when it's imbalanced, that's not good because then we're, we're just being, we're just being led and controlled by that part. Right. But if we can, if, if we can actually look at porn and understand, go below kind of just the physical pleasure of it and the, the sexual pleasure of it and understand sexuality and sexual connection more broadly is like human connection at a really deep level.
Chandler Rogers (55:18.978)
Hmm.
Jake Kastleman (55:21.369)
I hold a fear of rejection. We all do. And I think those of us who say we don't, think that's kind of a coping mechanism in and of itself to just like deny that it's even there. We suppress it. I think it's better to accept that like we've all got it, you know? And hopefully it can become more balanced and healthy for us over time as we become aware of it. But if I'm seeking, if I'm in fear of rejection and relationships, as you say, are hard,
They're difficult. It's difficult to connect with someone. It's hard to be vulnerable. And we don't have full control in relationship. There's another person who has choices. They can get angry. They can hurt us, et cetera. Porn takes out all of those risks of connection. There's no chance of us being rejected.
Chandler Rogers (56:16.598)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (56:18.779)
And we're seeking for a deep connection with someone simultaneously wanting to be accepted for who we are and to not be hurt, to not risk that hurt. And so I think we are vying for connection through porn and we absolve ourselves of and just escape entirely the chance that we would be rejected or experienced something hurtful. And I'd say because
We've experienced that hurt and rejection early in life, likely, and parts of us are trying to protect us from that. So a part of us, which would be kind of that sexualized part that can become hypersexualized, is like, will seek out porn to get the connection that you need so that you can feel okay. And unfortunately, as that part tries to do that for, I would say, that young boy in us trying to find that connection, it is causing the very pain it's trying to fix.
Chandler Rogers (57:15.788)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's a very succinct summary. Like, any time that I'm feeling the urge to go turn towards those sexual acting out behaviors, I'm really vying for connection. And by turning in that direction, I forfeit the opportunity to experience real connection with myself or others. Like, I think that's the thing too. It's not just connection with another human being, connection with my wife.
I'm distancing from myself. I'm having to fracture these parts of myself in order to go to that, to that place that's out of alignment with my values. So I'm creating more disconnect and more disintegration with these parts of myself by turning to this place. So I'm moving away from connection within myself. I'm moving away from connection with my romantic partner, with my wife. I'm moving away from connection with God, if you're spiritual. And so I think that there's, it's like connection is not just connection with another human being. It's really this trifecta.
And I do think at the root of it, you're totally right. We just want connection.
Jake Kastleman (58:25.905)
Yeah. And I love that you connect all the different relationships, right? God, others self. I think I was thinking about this recently and I'm actually, it's not an original idea. I think I heard it from somebody else, but basically self-awareness. If there's a self to be aware of, like there's something we actually need to be aware of. And I believe that there's that higher self, like our soul. And I would call that that light of God, that spark of God that's inside of us. That is a, that can
pull back as an awareness for these parts. And so I think it was really hard before parts work and learning IFS for me to understand like relationship with myself, what does that even mean? I don't even understand what you're saying. But when you look at it, like there's multiple parts of you and they're kind of all like little individuals that make up you and you're building a relationship with these parts, right? I think that really made it far more concrete and understandable for me.
And yeah, when you, when, when you engage in porn, essentially a part of you trying to protect you has broken, has actually broken trust with, well, there's complexities to this, but it's taken over. It's taken the lead inappropriately in order to try to protect to do what it thinks is right. And it's suppressed or, hurt or broken trust with the other parts. Right? So it's, it's further, as you say,
kind of separated those parts or created this fracturing. And you actually see this in Inside Out too. I'm thinking of anxiety and sorry if I'm ruining this for anybody, but it's been over a year or so. You should probably hop to it and listen to it or see it. mean, but anxiety takes over. They all become suppressed emotions. They even call it out. They like, it's like a joke. It's like, we're suppressed emotions. But essentially that anxiety trying to protect Riley has just taken control.
Chandler Rogers (59:56.174)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (01:00:22.671)
of the entire scenario and pushed just jettisoned, literally jettisoned all the other parts of her in favor of her and jealousy and on we, I guess, and then embarrassment. It's like, there's just a few parts left. That's what we do to ourselves when we engage in addiction, you know? Yeah. So what do we do, right? So...
Chandler Rogers (01:00:27.97)
Yeah.
Chandler Rogers (01:00:36.195)
Yeah.
Chandler Rogers (01:00:41.528)
Yeah, so what are we doing?
Jake Kastleman (01:00:48.143)
Yeah, I think one of the things that we have touched on multiple times, but maybe there's more to say on is, what do you think happens when we stop trying to manage or control every part of our lives? How do we do that? Or how have you kind of seen that work for you of stepping out of this place of management and control? And I will add again to clarify for people who don't know, so that another part of you doesn't show up to try to escape all that pressure and
take the foot off this accelerator that's going so fast to control your life, how do we come, how do we step out of that control?
Chandler Rogers (01:01:24.386)
Yeah. Yeah. I'll go back to my own recovery journey. I, you know, I noticed, you know, I'd gone through cycles ever since I joined my first group. Like immediately when I joined, I made a ton of progress. got to like four or five, six months, which was a, it was a lot of progress. You know, it was significantly further in sobriety than I'd ever been able to get on my own.
Jake Kastleman (01:01:40.359)
Yeah.
Chandler Rogers (01:01:46.85)
and then, you know, had these cycles of relapses for the years that followed and being able to get, you know, back to some period of sobriety and then slipping again. And so I was in college at the time and I kind of like, it was probably the peak of what you described as that broken recovery and managing my recovery behaviors. Like I was extremely disciplined, extremely precise with how I was tracking.
Everything about my morning everything about my day my weekly goals and all areas of life I was focused on you know, my social self-care my spiritual self-care my physical self-care like I was trying to address all these needs right in healthy ways But I was really just managing the heck out of that thing and it was it was an interesting experience because it was it felt like like death gripping Recovery and it's saying if I grip this thing hard enough. I will break this cycle because I know
what I should be doing. I've been doing this at that point, you know, a number of years where I feel like I wasn't missing information. So it must be an application problem, which must be a me problem. And if it's a me problem, well, I don't know how to solve that other than just try harder to grip it, you know, like apply the things better and, you know, track them better and be more accountable. And, and that, that's kind of what I really was utilizing my group for was like, I'm going to be the most accountable person here.
And I don't think, again, I don't think that this was all 100 % bad or unhealthy or ineffective, but I think it was incomplete. And I love that you used that word earlier. And I just, remember having this distinct moment. It was kind of around the time I started dating my wife. And I think she could perceive that I was still, the way I was managing this was almost a reflection of how I viewed myself with still some shame, still some sort of like, get it together already, man. And she could see.
that I hadn't really maybe come as far as I thought I had in my own view of self and my own internal experience. And I think talking with her, what I realized is I needed to let go of that grip a little bit. And it was this hard thing to reconcile. was like, so you're saying I need to care less about not relapsing or care less about sobriety. And I think it can feel like that. So I wanted to get to that point. Specifically, if you're listening to this, I think it actually is.
Chandler Rogers (01:04:05.496)
caring a little bit less about sobriety, but you're still caring just as much or more about your overall recovery. Sobriety will come with recovery. Sobriety will come with recovery. But if you're only focused on abstinence, avoiding the behavior, managing the behavior, it's like staring at a pink elephant and saying, don't think about the pink elephant, don't think about the pink elephant, you know.
Jake Kastleman (01:04:18.311)
Mm-hmm.
Chandler Rogers (01:04:28.654)
I'm driving on the road, don't crash into the pole, don't look at the pole. Like I start veering towards the pole the more I'm thinking about the pole. So it's like the more I was trying to manage not acting out with pornography and masturbation is like the worst it got. And so surrender is the word that I learned to accept. And I'm still practicing this just to be a hundred percent honest and vulnerable. I'm still learning this because I think this vulnerability thing is a muscle, surrendering that control saying,
It's not a try harder thing, it's I need to give it up, lay it down at my feet so to speak, lay it down at God's feet, lay it down with other people who love me, lay it down with my group and my community. And that surrender, I think for me was when I was able to get a little bit deeper, to have a little bit more of a complete approach to my own recovery.
Jake Kastleman (01:05:21.533)
It's very insightful Chandler and it's interesting as you talked about your wife kind of bringing this up and being like, I don't think you've quite reached where you think you've reached. It's so.
Chandler Rogers (01:05:32.846)
Yeah. was like, look at all these things I'm tracking. I'm at four weeks and I'm going strong. And like, I had like 12 things I was tracking every single day. Like it was insane.
Jake Kastleman (01:05:43.345)
And it's so funny to me, like when you understand kind of the fundamental aspects of the masculine versus the feminine, the masculine, like we are about order, morality, duty, doing the right thing, pressing forward, resilience. And that's not all of who we are, right? By the way, like we have feminine inside of us too. Like I have a nurturing part of me. It's part I cherish and I utilize every day. I utilize it in the work that I do.
but I also have that couple of highly masculine parts of, I guess, depending on how you looked at it, maybe three. Anyway, I have them mapped out, there you go. But I think that it's so interesting where really we're meant to be together in these pairs of man and woman because while the men are about order, right, we have this kind of natural sense of order.
The women are about the feminine, is, I was gonna say chaos, because that is an element of it, but often we can think of chaos as so negative, but it's really more like flexibility and creativity and intuition, right? And so, and there's other aspects to that too, such as nurturing. Women.
can often step in and like see so clearly what we as a man cannot see at all. And I think they're there to point that out. Like, aren't you missing this over here or did you consider this thing or what about this? And in our pride, we can, and this was me for years actually when I still had this addicted mindset in my marriage. My wife would bring this up. She's like, you're spending like,
two and a half hours a day doing this, this and this. And like, it just feels like you've just got like this death grip. love that, I was smiling when you said death grip, because I'm like, I just relate to that so much. That's like the first six years of my recovery, it's just like death gripping recovery. And she was expressing all this and I had the same reaction kind of that you described, where I was just like, well, what? You don't want me to be as committed to this? Like, you're just trying to drag me down. Right? And.
Chandler Rogers (01:07:59.276)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (01:08:06.031)
It's amazing that they're kind of there to call that out and things that we can't see. ultimately, I think we're kind of there to help each other, right? And so for us as men, we're not doomed to be idiots forever or whatever culture. Culture sometimes can put women up above men, but I think we're both equally powerful just in very, very different ways.
in this sameness culture thing where like men and women are the exact same, think is extremely toxic. We're not the same, we're equal, but we're very different and powerful in different ways. And so for as men, we can help bring order to the feminine. Like we can help bring in stability and structure and guidance and direction. And women also again, have the masculine in them too. They just, most women, if not all women like want a strong man.
who can show up and provide some sense of order, some sense of stability, a core that's strong, a rock, right? And then we have the nuance there of connecting with each other where we also need to integrate. Men need to learn to integrate vulnerability and emotion and empathy. And that's very unnatural for most of us. And then the women need to learn how to be a little more ordered and a little more, right, focused. And it depends on the woman, obviously. We differ as individuals. But
It was just interesting for me to hear you say that because I'm like, I... Yeah.
Chandler Rogers (01:09:35.566)
Yeah, I see this in groups too. think for men together, as we're walking this path to recovery, we can help be there for each other in those complimentary ways. Because when I'm out of balance, I think I've been in groups that maybe don't have as holistic or well-rounded of a culture in my recovery, and then I've been in groups that do. I think the difference is really like...
And I think sometimes guys expect coming into a group is gonna be this like kind cutthroat accountability, like, you know, we push each other and like, you know, fix your crap type of mentality. And, you know, I don't know what people picture exactly, but I think that's part of what I expected. It's kind of masculine feeding masculine, but I really think healthy, a healthy recovery group environment, a healthy recovery community and support system.
Jake Kastleman (01:10:14.481)
Yes.
Chandler Rogers (01:10:27.81)
should help each other be able to see those blind spots, help each other take a broader perspective. And I think that it's sometimes just easier to see in somebody else than ourselves. It's easier to see when you're in shame sometimes than it is to notice my own shame, for example.
Jake Kastleman (01:10:46.517)
Mm-hmm. 100%. 100%. Well, I want to touch on this. I wanted to be sure to touch on this and this is a different topic, but to kind of shift gears a bit. way that we think about and talk about sexual desire, physical attraction, arousal, especially I am going to really kind of center this in on Christian culture, though this can take place in multiple cultures and contexts, but that's a majority, vast majority of men that I work with. And I would say those who listen to this podcast.
And for those who aren't, I'm glad you're here. It's awesome. And you'll also benefit from this. How do we turn sexuality, something that I believe can truly be pure and joyful and positive. And I would say even, I know this sounds odd to say, but innocent in a way, that it can actually be something that's really expressive and beautiful and wonderful. And I'm still aiming to practice that in my life, because I've got that history of addiction, right? That kind of really, really messed that up for me. So how do we...
but how do we turn something that could be so pure and joyful into something kind of toxic and destructive? How do you think, and I'm really what I'm really, cause I know how porn, we know how porn affects our perception of sexuality, but more so I'm talking about the shame surrounding sexuality and how we really drive that through judging and trying to control it and fearing it and et cetera. What do we do in that way?
Chandler Rogers (01:12:11.106)
Yeah, there's...
Jake Kastleman (01:12:14.023)
How do you think we're meant to actually see it?
Chandler Rogers (01:12:17.474)
Yeah, I think for me, especially in a faith lens here, it really ties down to like, what is my understanding of who God is and what he expects of me? I think a lot of what we learn in that regard growing up in the church and faith community is really centered around being worthy, being obedient, exercising faith.
following a path that is upright and in good standing with God. It's this definition of what good means in a spiritual sense. I think a lot of doctrine is very clear, or seems very clear, about what's not okay in the eyes of God. So when it comes to sin, and especially, I would say lust,
I think that there's a deep rooted fear and we talked about fear a lot. A fear of, know, I know that there is so much temptation. I know that the world is filled with lust and for me, I'll speak for me, there's a lot of fear around. I see myself as good. I wanna like walk this path of uprightness before God.
And I think in the church as a culture like that is kind of promoted, right? Like we're trying to help each other as fellow followers of Jesus Christ in the Christian community. And again, I think this applies literally in any other context. Like we're all trying to walk towards being a little bit better every day, a little bit more worthy, a little bit more clean. And so it's this fear of dirtiness, of unworthiness, of...
And I see this show up, and fear I think connects with shame. I see this show up a lot of like, feel shame because my eyes wander when I'm in public. I feel shame for wanting to look. There's a part of me that continues to want to look when I see someone attractive multiple times, right? And I know that that doesn't feel congruent with my definition of living at my highest standard. so I think...
Chandler Rogers (01:14:34.146)
It's just really interesting because I think this idea that like, and even maybe the church culture is starting to shift a little bit and hopefully promoting that sexuality is beautiful, it's good, it's not dirty. I know a lot of people grew up with the messages that you gotta be careful, the danger warning mindset, but I think so many of us that have experienced temptation and weakness and...
in whatever capacity, right, this has taken shape, I'm guessing, right? Those listening to this podcast, you've dealt with these behaviors, you've seen how they suck you in. I think that when we think about sexuality, it's really easy to twist this good, healthy desire to want to live for the highest standards of life that we possibly can, that aligns with our values and aligns with our beliefs, and that gets muddled in with like...
this natural man in this environment, in this world that we're around and feeling like it's basically impossible to feel like, you I can keep myself shielded from impurity, from all of this, you know, all the possible ways to misstep out in this world. And I know for me having struggled for so many years, it's like, I don't even trust myself. Like, I think my fears are rooted in like, being scared of one day, just totally going off the deep end, even worse. So it's like, I don't even trust myself.
because I have all of these evidences that I am weak or I am susceptible or I am less than when it comes to living a life that is pure and good and aligned with my values. So I don't know, man. I don't know how to give a succinct answer to this, because it just feels like, like what I really do know to be true is that I believe God did design sexuality to be about intimacy, to be about, you brought this up earlier.
deep human connection. It's not just sex, it's a full experience of connectedness and closeness in relationship that is sacred and it's beautiful. But I think our fear and our shame sometimes gets in the way of that because we want to be good, you know?
Jake Kastleman (01:16:47.429)
Yes. And I think our fear and our shame gets in the way of it. And then again, those protector parts show up one saying, let's indulge in this. Let's go crazy. Let's fantasize. Let's peak this experience to the ultimate degree.
Chandler Rogers (01:16:58.926)
I'll never be able to, I probably will never be able to be perfect anyways so you know I guess I'm consigned to mediocrity or whatever you that voice I've heard from a part before like you know you've tried enough times man you might as well just accept that you know this is the best you can do
Jake Kastleman (01:17:10.525)
Totally.
Jake Kastleman (01:17:17.213)
Yes. And then that other part that's judging the sexual desire and the experience and trying to control it and inhibit it like, okay, this can be enjoyable, like sex with your wife can be enjoyable, but not too enjoyable. Don't enjoy it too much, right? We gotta keep things on lockdown. if, yeah.
Chandler Rogers (01:17:35.694)
Because risk, because I'm susceptible, I'm weak, it's rooted in fear.
Jake Kastleman (01:17:46.205)
And I think those those two different parts the one that wants to indulge and fantasize and go crazy and the one that wants to control they'll again they will show up equally until we become deeply aware and heal and heal and heal over time peeling back layers and Really getting down to the fear and the shame that's at the core So that those parts can step out more and more and instead we can show up authentically where I can just it can be an authentically Positive
beautiful, enjoyable experience physically, emotionally, spiritually, relationally, all of this, rather than it being this hyper sexualized thing that's all physical, or this thing that's just dry and controlled and monotonous. Yeah, think a lot of people can relate to that. thanks for being here, Chandler. I appreciate it. Man, if people want to find Relay,
Chandler Rogers (01:18:20.675)
more.
Chandler Rogers (01:18:33.774)
Totally.
Jake Kastleman (01:18:43.687)
or they wanna get in touch with you, how do they do that?
Chandler Rogers (01:18:47.372)
Yeah, I mean they could go to the website so you can go find Relay at www.joinrelay.app. Maybe we could throw a link in the show notes, but that's probably the best way to go and find the work that we're doing and to learn more. I also always like to say, my heart and all of this is I care deeply about the connection piece and I don't want...
anyone out there, don't want you to feel like you have to struggle alone. So if you ever, you know, want to reach out personally, I try to make my email available too. So it's just Chandler at join relay.app if you ever want to talk or if you resonated with something in this conversation. Like I know Jake and I are both doing this probably because, because we've been there number one, but we also believe that, that you don't have to go through this alone.
Jake Kastleman (01:19:31.741)
100%. Well, thanks again Chandler. What a wonderful conversation and just really, really appreciate your insights. And I think it's been helpful to a lot of people.
Chandler Rogers (01:19:41.432)
Thanks, Jake. It's great to talk to you.
Jake Kastleman (01:19:43.805)
Thanks, man.
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