When Your Son Starts Masturbating | How to Respond Without Shame & Guide Healthy Sexuality With Sam Jolman
What should you do when you discover that your son is masturbating?
For many fathers, that question immediately brings up discomfort, uncertainty, and even fear. You may wonder whether you should confront the behavior directly, whether it signals a developing pornography problem, or whether saying the wrong thing could create shame that follows your son for years. If you grew up in a religious home, you may also carry your own history of hearing masturbation discussed almost exclusively in terms of lust, impurity, secrecy, or sin. Even if you now have a more thoughtful understanding of sexuality, those older reactions can surface quickly when the issue involves your own child.
I understand that tension personally because masturbation became deeply entangled with shame, secrecy, pornography, anxiety, and emotional escape in my own story. For a long time, I assumed that the central problem was simply sexual desire itself and that recovery required me to become better at suppressing or overpowering it. What I eventually discovered was that the behavior was often connected to much more than sex. It had become a way of regulating anxiety, relieving internal pressure, escaping uncomfortable emotions, and finding temporary relief when I did not know how to soothe myself in healthier ways.
That is one reason I wanted to have this conversation with therapist and author Sam Jolman. The goal was not to reduce a complicated topic to a quick verdict about whether masturbation is good or bad. Instead, we wanted to explore what may be happening underneath the behavior, how parents can talk to their sons about masturbation without creating unnecessary shame, and how the same insights can help adult men better understand their own porn addiction recovery.
One of the most important lessons from the conversation is that what looks sexual on the surface may sometimes be serving an emotional or nervous-system function underneath. If we miss that distinction, whether as parents or as men working toward sobriety, we can spend years fighting the behavior while leaving the deeper pattern completely untouched.
Why Masturbation and Shame Become So Closely Connected
For many boys, masturbation is discovered before anyone has given them meaningful language for what is happening in their bodies. Sexual development is already underway, but their understanding often lags far behind their experience. A boy may discover that touching himself feels pleasurable, experience an orgasm without fully understanding what has happened, and simultaneously sense that this is something he probably should not talk about.
When secrecy enters the picture early, the entire experience can become emotionally charged long before he has the maturity to make sense of it.
That was true in my own story. I remember experiencing things in my body that felt intense and confusing while also carrying the assumption that something about the experience was probably wrong. I did not yet have a healthy framework for understanding sexual desire, arousal, orgasm, or bodily pleasure, so shame filled the gaps where education and relationship should have been.
This is particularly common in religious environments where masturbation, arousal, lust, and pornography are often treated as though they are essentially the same thing. When those categories collapse into one another, a boy can begin to interpret normal sexual development as evidence of moral failure. He may conclude that the problem is not merely what he does with his sexuality but the fact that he possesses sexuality at all.
That distinction matters tremendously. Sexual curiosity is not the same thing as pornography addiction. Arousal is not compulsive sexual behavior. Experiencing a strong libido does not mean a boy is already developing an unhealthy relationship with sex. These experiences can eventually become entangled with pornography, fantasy, or compulsive masturbation, but they are not identical. If we fail to separate them, we may inadvertently teach our sons that the body itself is dangerous rather than helping them learn how to steward something powerful and meaningful.
Is Masturbation Normal for Teenage Boys?
One of the themes Sam and I discussed is that bodily exploration begins much earlier than most adults realize. Human beings naturally discover their bodies through sensation, and children often explore without attaching adult sexual meaning to what they are doing. As puberty develops, however, those sensations become intertwined with increasingly powerful sexual energy, hormonal changes, attraction, fantasy, and curiosity.
Because of that, masturbation in teenage boys should not automatically be treated as proof of pornography use, deep moral corruption, or a serious behavioral disorder. What matters far more is the context surrounding the behavior. A parent should be interested not only in whether masturbation is occurring, but also in what function it may be serving, how frequently it happens, whether it is connected to pornography, and whether it appears to be becoming a primary way of coping with stress, loneliness, anxiety, boredom, or emotional pain.
Those are very different situations, and they require different responses. A teenager who is simply curious about his body is not necessarily in the same place as a teenager who has developed a repetitive pornography and masturbation ritual that he uses every time life becomes difficult. Curiosity helps us make that distinction, while panic tends to flatten everything into one alarming category.
This is where parents need a broader framework. Instead of immediately asking, “How do I make this stop?” it may be more useful to ask, “What is happening here, and what does my son need to understand about his body, his emotions, and his sexuality?”
Masturbation Can Become a Form of Self-Soothing
This was one of the most important themes in my conversation with Sam because it connects directly with the men I coach in pornography addiction recovery. Masturbation is not always driven primarily by sexual desire. In many cases, it becomes a form of self-soothing.
Consider what happens when a man feels chronically anxious. His thoughts are racing, his body is tense, he feels restless and overstimulated, and he wants some way to come down from that internal pressure. If sexual stimulation has repeatedly provided fast relief, the nervous system begins to remember it as a solution. Over time, the body may start reaching for sexual arousal not only when the man is genuinely sexually interested, but whenever he feels dysregulated.
The pattern can become remarkably consistent: stress leads to craving, craving leads to pornography or masturbation, orgasm brings temporary relief, and the nervous system learns to repeat the same sequence the next time discomfort appears. Subjectively, the man may interpret the experience simply as, “I am horny,” when a more complete description would be, “I am anxious, overwhelmed, lonely, or emotionally depleted, and my brain has learned to translate that state into sexual craving.”
That distinction changed my own recovery. For years, porn and masturbation were two of the most reliable ways I had found to move from a state of high internal pressure toward temporary numbness. I struggled with anxiety, perfectionism, overstimulation, and a constant sense that I needed some kind of release. Sexual behavior offered that release quickly, and because it worked in the short term, my brain kept returning to it.
Eventually, I began asking a different question. Instead of focusing only on how to make the sexual craving disappear, I started asking what was happening inside me that made relief feel so urgently necessary. That shift opened the door to a much deeper form of recovery because I was no longer treating every urge as a purely sexual problem.
Porn and Masturbation Addiction Are Often About More Than Sex
One of the biggest misunderstandings I see among men trying to quit porn is the assumption that their primary problem is simply excessive sexual desire. They begin resenting their libido, fearing arousal, or wishing they could shut down their sexuality altogether. Sobriety starts to feel like a battle against their own body.
In reality, pornography addiction is often connected to far more than sex. Porn can become a way of coping with loneliness, rejection, shame, boredom, exhaustion, frustration, insecurity, or the pressure of feeling as though you always have to perform. It can create temporary excitement when life feels dull, offer fantasy when reality feels disappointing, and produce a sense of control when the rest of life feels chaotic.
None of that excuses the behavior. Understanding the function of pornography does not mean approving of its consequences. It simply allows us to see more clearly why the behavior has become so persistent.
If pornography has spent years functioning as one of your primary methods of emotional regulation, then simply removing pornography leaves a significant vacuum. The need for comfort, relief, connection, stimulation, or escape does not disappear just because you have decided to become sober. If anything, those needs may become more obvious once the old coping mechanism is gone.
This is why sustainable porn addiction recovery has to involve more than abstinence. A man must eventually develop other ways of responding to the states that once drove him toward pornography.
Why “Just Stop” Usually Is Not Enough
Parents can fall into the same trap that men in recovery often fall into. We see a behavior that worries us, so we focus immediately on eliminating it. In some cases, clear boundaries are necessary and wise, particularly when pornography is involved. The problem comes when stopping the behavior becomes the entire strategy.
Imagine a teenage boy who comes home from school carrying intense social anxiety, academic pressure, loneliness, and the accumulated stress of trying to fit in. Somewhere along the way, he discovers that masturbation reliably calms him down. If his parents discover the behavior and respond only with prohibition, the visible behavior may be addressed while the underlying anxiety remains untouched. Unless he learns healthier ways to understand and regulate what he is feeling, he is still left with the same internal problem and fewer ways to cope with it.
This dynamic appears constantly in pornography recovery. Men become extremely focused on blocking websites, counting days, setting stricter rules, and making stronger promises, while the lifestyle producing the craving remains nearly identical. They are still chronically stressed, isolated, sleep-deprived, glued to technology, emotionally disconnected, and unsure how to respond when shame or anxiety hits. Under those conditions, the old behavior continues to make sense to the nervous system even when the man consciously hates it.
Boundaries matter, but they work best when they support deeper growth. The goal is not only to remove a behavior but to build the capacities that make the behavior increasingly unnecessary.
What Should You Do If Your Son Is Masturbating?
If you discover your son masturbating, I believe one of the most important things you can do initially is pay attention to your own reaction. Notice what rises in you before you decide what to say.
You may feel fear about where this could lead, embarrassment about having to discuss it, anger because it violates your values, or anxiety because it reminds you of your own sexual history. You may also feel disgust or panic without fully understanding where those reactions come from. None of these responses automatically make you a bad parent, but they do become your responsibility to understand before you place them onto your son.
A boy is extremely sensitive to the emotional tone of a parent in moments like this. You may communicate a thoughtful message verbally while your facial expression, posture, and tone communicate something very different. If your son experiences the interaction as disgust or rejection, he may remember that emotional impression for years and become less likely to bring sexual questions to you in the future.
Responding without shame does not require abandoning your values. It means communicating those values from a grounded place. You can teach your son that his body is powerful, that sexual desire is powerful, and that pleasure deserves wisdom and stewardship without teaching him that his body itself is the enemy.
How to Talk to Your Son About Masturbation Without Shame
Ideally, conversations about masturbation should not begin only after a parent discovers the behavior. Boys should already have age-appropriate language for puberty, erections, wet dreams, orgasm, sexual desire, attraction, and bodily development before those experiences become frightening or mysterious.
Sex education is not one dramatic conversation. It is a gradual process of helping a child interpret what is happening in his body and giving him somewhere safe to bring questions as he matures.
If your son is masturbating, one of the most valuable things you can communicate is that sexuality is discussable. You can explain that pleasure and curiosity are part of having a body while also helping him understand that sexual experiences can become connected to patterns that are not always healthy. From there, the conversation can move beyond the isolated behavior and toward the larger context of his life.
You might become curious about what happens when he feels stressed, how he responds to loneliness, whether he has encountered pornography, what he does when he feels overwhelmed, and whether he ever notices sexual urges becoming stronger when he is emotionally distressed. These conversations are not interrogations. They are opportunities to help your son build self-awareness before destructive habits become deeply ingrained.
That self-awareness can become one of the most valuable protective factors he carries into adulthood.
Teach Your Son to Separate Sexual Desire From Emotional Distress
One of the most useful skills a boy can learn is the ability to distinguish sexual arousal from emotional dysregulation.
Sometimes he may want sexual release because he is genuinely aroused. At other times, the urge may appear because his nervous system has learned that sexual stimulation is an efficient way to feel better. The two experiences can overlap so thoroughly that they are difficult to distinguish without practice.
The same skill is essential for adult men working to overcome pornography addiction. When a craving appears, I encourage men not to assume that the craving perfectly identifies the underlying need. Instead, slow the experience down and investigate what was happening beforehand. Pay attention to whether the urge arose after criticism, rejection, boredom, exhaustion, conflict, shame, loneliness, or a stressful day.
Then notice the body. Are you tense, restless, agitated, empty, numb, or unable to settle? What are you hoping pornography will do for you in that moment?
These questions turn cravings into information. At No More Desire, I often teach that triggers are trailheads because they point somewhere deeper. When we follow the trail with curiosity rather than immediately trying to crush the urge, we often discover an emotional need, a nervous-system state, or a recurring story underneath it.
That is where real change begins.
Stop Fighting the Part of You That Wants Relief
Parts work became incredibly important in my own recovery because it helped me stop treating every craving as an enemy invasion.
For a long time, when I experienced the urge to use pornography or masturbate, my response was hostility. I would become frustrated with myself, question why I still wanted this, and feel ashamed that part of me continued reaching for the same behavior. That internal battle created enormous tension, but it rarely helped me understand what was actually happening.
Over time, I learned to relate to those urges differently. What if the part of me reaching for pornography was not trying to destroy my life, but was using an old strategy it had learned years earlier to make me feel better? That possibility changed the conversation.
Instead of demonizing the craving, I could become curious about what it was trying to accomplish. Perhaps I felt lonely, inadequate, overworked, afraid, exhausted, or desperate for comfort. Once the real need became clearer, I had something meaningful to work with.
Compassionate self-leadership does not mean obeying every urge. It means understanding why an urge exists so that you can lead yourself more wisely. I can appreciate that part of me is trying to find relief while still deciding that pornography is no longer the way I want to respond.
Build Better Ways to Regulate Your Nervous System
Once I understood that pornography and masturbation had often functioned as self-soothing, recovery became less about deprivation and more about building capacity. I needed other ways to become okay when life felt difficult.
That process involved many different practices. Breathing and journaling helped me slow down internal escalation. Prayer gave me a place to bring fear, shame, and uncertainty instead of carrying them alone. Exercise and weightlifting helped me metabolize stress physically. Relationships gave me access to real connection rather than simulated intimacy. Reducing constant technology use lowered the amount of easy stimulation in my day, while meaningful work gave my energy somewhere worthwhile to go.
No single practice replaced pornography. My lifestyle gradually did.
This is one of the central principles behind the work I teach at No More Desire. Freedom from porn is not simply the ability to resist pornography for longer periods of time. Freedom becomes increasingly possible when a man builds a life that supports sobriety from the inside out.
Emotional regulation matters because you need ways to tolerate difficult feelings without escaping them. Neurological retraining matters because your reward system has learned to expect rapid stimulation. Physical health matters because sleep, movement, nutrition, and energy directly affect your resilience. Relationships matter because isolation amplifies compulsive behavior. Purpose matters because a life without meaning will always make artificial intensity more attractive. For me, spiritual grounding and my relationship with God are part of that foundation as well.
These elements reinforce one another. Recovery becomes much more stable when the entire system begins to change.
You Do Not Need to Discharge Every Sexual Urge
Another important change in my own relationship with sexuality was realizing that sexual energy does not automatically require immediate release.
For years, I experienced sexual desire almost like pressure building inside a container. The assumption underneath the experience was that eventually the pressure had to go somewhere, and orgasm was the obvious endpoint.
Over time, that began to change. I learned that I could experience arousal without panicking, allow sexual energy to rise and fall, and remain present with the sensations without automatically turning them into pornography, fantasy, or orgasm. I also discovered that I liked the feeling of being able to carry that energy and direct it toward other parts of my life.
That experience is very different from suppression.
Suppression says that sexual desire itself is unacceptable and must be crushed. Stewardship recognizes that desire is powerful and asks how that power should be directed. A mature man does not need to eliminate sexual energy in order to lead it well.
That is also the kind of healthy sexuality I want my sons to understand. I do not want them to believe that every desire must be obeyed, but neither do I want them to believe that desire itself makes them bad. I want them to learn that they can experience powerful internal states without becoming controlled by them.
From Easy Pleasure to Noble Pleasure
Pornography offers enormous stimulation for very little meaningful effort, which is part of why it can become so compelling. It gives novelty, excitement, fantasy, and reward almost instantly.
But there are other forms of pleasure that shape a man very differently.
There is satisfaction in lifting something heavy, creating something difficult, repairing a relationship, learning a skill, doing work you respect, spending meaningful time with your children, serving another person, building something that did not exist before, praying, walking outside, or sharing a real conversation with another man.
At No More Desire, I sometimes refer to these as noble pleasures because they give something back to your life instead of simply consuming your attention.
Porn recovery is not about becoming anti-pleasure. In many ways, it is about learning how to enjoy better pleasure.
The same principle applies to raising boys. If the only lesson we give them about sexuality is restraint, we have given them only part of what they need. Boys also need meaningful places to direct energy, curiosity, ambition, desire, and passion. They need a life large enough to hold what is developing inside them.
Porn Addiction Recovery Requires a New Relationship With Yourself
A man can spend years trying to overpower himself. He can create stricter rules, make stronger promises, install better filters, and punish himself more severely after every relapse. Sometimes greater discipline is needed, and external safeguards can be wise. But discipline without self-understanding can eventually become exhausting because the man remains divided against himself.
Recovery became much more powerful for me when I learned to ask deeper questions. What am I feeling right now? What story am I telling myself? What is happening in my nervous system? What part of me is asking for relief? What do I actually need, and what response aligns with the man I want to become?
Those questions lead somewhere very different from simply asking how to make an urge disappear.
The goal is not to become a man who never experiences desire. The goal is to become a man who knows how to lead desire, care for himself when he is struggling, and respond in ways that reflect his values even when discomfort is present.
What Your Son May Need Most Is a Relationship He Does Not Have to Hide From
Perhaps the most important parenting takeaway from my conversation with Sam is that when your son struggles sexually, you want him to have somewhere safe to go.
That does not mean creating a home where anything goes. It means creating a relationship where anything can be discussed.
There is an enormous difference between the two.
A boy needs a father who can hold truth and compassion at the same time, someone who can teach that sexuality matters, that pornography can shape the brain and relationships in destructive ways, that choices have consequences, and that struggle does not disqualify him from connection.
Many of us never had that kind of relationship growing up. We learned to hide our questions, our mistakes, our arousal, and eventually our pornography use because we believed disclosure would lead to humiliation or disappointment. Secrecy then became part of the addiction itself.
Imagine how different a boy's story might become if he knew that he could walk into a room at thirteen, fourteen, or seventeen years old and tell a trusted adult what was happening without fearing disgust. That kind of relationship does not guarantee that he will never struggle, but it gives him something many men in addiction recovery have spent years trying to rebuild: honest connection in the places where shame once demanded secrecy.
A Better Question Than “How Do I Make Him Stop?”
If your son has started masturbating, the most useful question may not be, “How do I make him stop?” A deeper question is, “How do I help my son understand his sexuality well enough that he can eventually lead it?”
That question changes the goal from short-term behavior control to long-term maturity.
If you are an adult man trying to overcome pornography addiction, I would invite you to ask a similar question about yourself. Instead of focusing only on how to stop looking at porn, begin asking what pornography has been doing for you and what kind of life you need to build so that you no longer depend on it.
That inquiry takes you beneath the behavior and into the emotional, neurological, physical, relational, and spiritual dimensions of recovery. It asks you to develop greater emotional regulation, retrain your reward system, strengthen relationships, care for your body, cultivate purpose, and learn how to carry difficult internal states without immediately escaping them.
Over time, recovery can become something much larger than abstinence. You begin building a life in which peace feels more satisfying than intensity, genuine connection becomes more attractive than isolation, meaningful creation replaces passive consumption, and integrity becomes more valuable than secrecy.
Pornography begins losing the role it once played because your life no longer depends on it in the same way.
That, to me, is one of the deepest lessons from this conversation. Healthy sexuality is not about learning to hate desire, and recovery is not about becoming disconnected from your body. It is about becoming mature enough to understand what your desires are telling you, wise enough to distinguish desire from distress, and grounded enough to lead both with integrity.
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Transcript for episode 163: When Your Son Starts Masturbating | How to Respond Without Shame & Guide Healthy Sexuality With Sam Jolman
Jake Kastleman (00:01.024)
Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.
Jake Kastleman (00:17.102)
Today, I address something many people have a difficult relationship with, something that I also had a difficult relationship with. Masturbation. For some, it feels awkward to discuss, and it's a topic that is loaded with unconscious shame, secrecy, and fear, especially for those of us who grew up in Christian culture. What do you feel when you hear the word masturbation? What messages come up in your head? If you're like me or many of the men that I helped, you grew up hearing masturbation is a sin, and it's something
You hid and never discussed for most of your life. Perhaps this is still the case. It is likely that you are one of many men that discovered it by accident. When it first occurred, you didn't know what was happening. The experience filled you with a concoction of intense emotions: pleasure, arousal, shame, fear. You thought, no one can ever know about this. Because sex wasn't openly discussed in your home, you didn't understand what was happening to your body.
You may have not even known what it was called. You just somehow knew that you shouldn't talk about it with mom and dad. Then, sometime in late elementary or early middle school, a friend told you what it was. Maybe you found out online. Or maybe some guys were joking about it in the locker room and you were shocked when you found out that they knew about it too. Through it all, you developed a strained, shame-filled relationship built in secrecy.
When it comes to masturbation and sexuality. And this followed you into adulthood. What happened to you, my friend, shouldn't have happened. You should have been educated. You should have had a place to discuss these things. You should have known what was happening to your body. Now you may be a father yourself and wonder how to talk with your own sons about porn and masturbation. But your relationship to sexuality hasn't exactly been straightforward or healthy, so you don't know how. In today's episode, Sam Jolman and I
We'll discuss all of this and more, helping you understand your own beliefs surrounding masturbation and sexuality, working to heal them, and giving something far better to your sons than you had. Today's episode is a continuation of last week's discussion on sexuality, teaching your kids about sexuality and how to bring hope and blessing to these things that so many of us grew up feeling secrecy and shame about. This discussion hinges.
Jake Kastleman (02:42.146)
In part upon Sam Jolman's book, The Sex Talk You Never Got, which promotes blessing your sexuality and also utilizing it in a way that fits your values. I highly recommend his book or following him on Substack. You'll find his links in the show notes. Before we dive in, a reminder to download my free ebook, The Ten Tools to Conquer Cravings, or sign up for my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn. These resources are your next step to get sober, and you'll find them.
At nomordesire.com slash tools. All right, let's get started. Today I have Sam Joelman on the show. So excited that you're here, man, for another conversation from our our our previous conversation that we had on how should we talk to our kids about sex, right? How should we have the sex talk? So today we're talking about how should we talk to our kids about masturbation or
Particularly our sons, we really focus on you focus on male sexuality. And a lot of guys listening here are male. So they have a history of this. So we're just diving right into this. A lot of people that hear the word masturbation is like, huh, right? It's like, whoa, that word. So why is that the case? it's one of those topics that will br instantly bring up shame, fear, embarrassment, secrecy, defensiveness, right? I think especially for those raised in
Those of us raised in religious homes, right? So why do you think this particular behavior carries so much emotional weight for people?
Sam Jolman (04:18.803)
man, there's something about this being that boyish bad thing that you're not supposed to do. And I mean, it can go back as far as the church overtly, right? Religious communities overtly saying things like, this will cause blindness. This will physically damage you. It's the unpardonable sin, right? I mean, there are church fathers that have used language around masturbation being worse than rape.
So the church has not had a good relationship with the topic of masturbation as a whole. And so, you know, how much of that has just sort of like carried on through the generations? I think there's also something about, you know, our shaming of the body in general, the pleasures of the body, right? It's easy to equate, you know, in the name of killing the flesh, maiming the body.
It wouldn't be uncommon for as well the church, certain church fathers that have castrated themselves in the name of trying to avoid arousal, what we now would just call arousal, not even lust, right? Just even having feelings in your body around sexuality. So I I think we've just not known what to do with this wild design that God has made us with around sensuality.
And the pleasures of the body. So to start with that, I think, you know, as well, I think we so easily just equate.
Masturbation with lust. now often they can go hand in hand, I suppose pun intended, right?
Jake Kastleman (06:06.446)
I ha that's so funny. I hadn't even thought.
Sam Jolman (06:08.59)
Sorry, I'm so saying it, I was like wait, yeah. right. That's you know that
Jake Kastleman (06:17.464)
We're gonna edit we won't even edit that part out. We're just gonna leave that in.
Sam Jolman (06:19.886)
you know that and and again, I would say, I don't know, I've not polled this, but probably most men who struggle with pornography have a lust, have a pornography and masturbation ritual, right? That those go together. and so I think we equate as this is bad. now, and there are some people that would still say.
Unpartnered sexual experience is bad, is sinful. It's wrong. meaning that sex is made in relationship as a man to your wife, and that's the only place that sexual experience is meant to happen. I don't see that being said in the Bible, and I I don't think it's inherently a sin.
Jake Kastleman (07:12.622)
Can picture the people listening to this episode right now, as soon as you said that, and they're like, Nope, click, right. He doesn't believe masturbation is a sin. Therefore, I'm no longer going to listen to this episode. Right. And and and there's others who would continue listening, right? Think the thing, I'm gonna speak from my own personal standpoint. Masturbation was always associated with deep shame and secrecy and fear for me, right? Always. And so I've always inherently felt like
This is something that takes from me and takes from my life. Right. And so it's hard for me to reconcile that. Like when people will say, well, it it can be a a thing that's healthy. And I'm like, well, it never was for me, right? Nor for any of the guys that I work with. Right. And so maybe you can talk more to what that separation is, because we we really dive into.
the story, the context, the reasons behind it, right? Which you really emphasize versus just the isolated behavior its itself. Yes. There's a massive distinction here. So let's talk about that.
Sam Jolman (08:28.226)
Yes. And and I would say, you know, the context Well I I I would start by saying, you know, touching your body in general is not wrong, I believe. So and I would go back to this. There are there are
You're gonna edit this?
Jake Kastleman (08:57.614)
Probably. Okay, all right.
Sam Jolman (08:59.502)
I'm I'm just trying to think where I wanna start. so I'm I'm getting a little stuck. good.
Jake Kastleman (09:08.246)
This was an experiment for me, Sam, because I I've never done a double episode, but you inspired me to do it. That's right. Okay. We're just we're just going with it. We're just seeing seeing how it goes.
Sam Jolman (09:20.642)
Well, I would I would start by saying this, you know, there is evidence from ultrasounds of there there are recordings through ultrasound video of both babies, little boys and little girls, babies, infants, right? Not even born in their mother's womb, doing what researchers called
Masturbation like behaviors, movements. So in other words, they they have recordings of what l appears to be babies in the womb touching themselves in a masturbation way. Now, I think we would all say there's no way that is driven by lust. Is right, is that sinful for a baby in its mother's womb?
To touch itself in a way that mimics masturbation. I think that's something that you must grapple with. As and again, they also have video of babies in their mother's womb sucking their thumbs. Right? And I would say those to me are closest together, that they near each other. This is what I would call just.
Sensual exploration of their own bodies. You, you, you, you haven't learned how to animate your body yet when you're in your mother's womb. Over time, you can, right? And so what's happening is they're probably passing their thumb over their mouth, and it feels good to suck my thumb. Right? It's self-soothing. It's just sensual. It just feels good. This isn't sexual, right?
Babies in their mother's womb are not sexually awakened. This is purely sensual. Again, it just feels good to touch your genitalia and it's probably comforting. That's what's going on. This is self-soothing behavior. So I think you need to have a category as a person. I think we all need to, with masturbation being potentially self-soothing.
Sam Jolman (11:44.97)
Or self-exploring behavior. It just feels good. There's also evidence of children discovering masturbation. In fact, a lot of these children get brought into neurologists or doctors with fears that they're having seizures, right? That they're having a neurological condition. What's happening is they're having orgasms.
But to their parents, they look like they're having seizures. These are children who have discovered masturbation. Why? Because it just feels good to touch your skin. And they they are exploring their body and they touch their genitalia. And guess what? Because there's eight to 10,000 nerve endings there, it feels good.
Jake Kastleman (12:37.57)
Think this is so important. And I apologize for cutting off, but it's so important from a non-shaming perspective, in that like this inclination, this desire is so inherently normal. When when I was, you know, 12 years old and I began exploring and having this experience, which I had no idea what it was, as many of the men who've you've you've worked with, right, no clue what was going on, right? Unfortunately.
I hadn't been educated by my parents and I totally understand why all that happened. We've, you know, discussed that. But I think if I would have understood even just the neurology and like the biology behind it of what I was experiencing and why it felt so good and why I would be curious about that, right? But then fast forwarding years later, discovering that it was a self-soothing behavior.
For me. Yeah. Right. And that I could actually soothe my emotions and calm my nervous system. Right. Through the things we discussed in the last episode briefly, right? Breath and journaling and connections with others and prayer and exercise and weightlifting and having meaning in my life, having a sense of safety, having a sense of joy, right? All these things that I desperately needed that I didn't feel like I had in a lot of ways. Right.
Yeah. And that masturbation became that way for me. And I would say for some people, it doesn't, right? It doesn't become that way. Other things become that way, or they grow up in a relatively healthy environment. They feel pretty good generally. And they don't really like have these behaviors. They have some healthy behaviors and maybe they overeat sometimes and whatever things like that. But generally they're doing pretty good.
A quick pause for just a couple minutes. There are a lot of men who feel discouraged by some of the recovery programs or therapy services out there. Maybe you are this way as well. Tell me if this sounds familiar to you. You show up to a one-on-one session, someone asks you how your week went. You talk about your problems, maybe you talk about your relapses, and perhaps get a bit of advice or a listening ear, but you don't really feel like you are being given any sound tools to use throughout the week, throughout each day. This is not
Jake Kastleman (15:02.168)
To say that these aren't well-meaning professionals or that they don't do a lot of good for you, but to overcome porn, you need a sound structure. Many of the men in my program who've tried traditional therapy routes or other services find something different in this program. I provide a step-by-step structure that guides you in building habits and tools for your recovery. I provide you with 10 to 15 minute daily practices to build emotional resilience and work through cravings, an entire online course library that I worked on for years.
With short lessons and applied exercises. In the program, you will learn practices derived from CBT, IFS, neuroscience, nutritional psychology, faith philosophy, and I help you apply each teaching to your everyday life through reflections, worksheets, and instructions. It's all about that application, guys. For guys who are looking for a higher level of support, I provide weekly one-on-one coaching to build personalized plans for your specific situation.
I also instruct you in meditation practices in session to work through cravings and emotions and to train yourself to do this so that when they come up, you'll know what to do. Many men find this extremely helpful. In addition to all this, you don't do things alone. You are part of a private online community and meet with a weekly group to connect with other men who are on the same journey. It's a really awesome culture. At No More Desire, you're not just getting sober. You're designing a life that you love. So to learn more about the program,
Go to nomoresire.com slash coaching. All right, back to the show. It it became the focal point. Porn and masturbation became the focal point of my comforting and self-soothing because I was always on high alert, anxious, tense, right? A lot of internal pressure, a lot of perfectionism. And that would help to bring me from overstimulation to under stimulation to numb. Right.
Sam Jolman (16:57.57)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's so powerful. And right. If if only right, you could speak to your younger self, right, who is discovering masturbation and say, both this is normal, it's your body is wired for pleasure, and let's find you a different way to soothe. Right. Right. So that your your n your arousal isn't joined to anxiety.
Right. Because that's to where every time now you're anxious, you're you're driven towards arousal or sexual outlets, right? Rather than romance or the what your sexuality is made for. and I I as well, nobody told me. I read it in a book, and I remember f being terrified that I had injured myself. I didn't know what had happened.
Right? When I reached orgasm.
Jake Kastleman (17:58.85)
Yes. Yeah. Same case for me. What is happening to my body? I whatever's going on shouldn't be happening right now. That's all I know. It feels feels totally weird. What's
Sam Jolman (18:09.07)
Yes. Right. And I I thankfully had an older brother and I asked him. And he was a good, kind presence for me. And again, he's only three years older. And he said, no, you're not broken. That's normal. And I was like, okay, at least I had that soothing, that comfort, right? Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (18:33.134)
I'm not alone and this is I'm not alone. Some weirdo. I'm not like yeah. And I'm not injuring myself. Yeah.
Sam Jolman (18:39.212)
Right. And I've I you know I've heard stories. I had a mother tell me, you know, she remembers she her son ran into the room to, you know, terrified. What did I just do? Right. And she was able to walk him through, like, no, this is normal. This is okay. Right. Again, so comforting to be able to say, It's okay. I've known men.
The the point I'd want to hear is often the way, you know, and there's even research on this, that's children who develop chronic masturbation habits, a lot of times the two things the researchers concluded in this one study, and again it's one study, was it seemed to either come from a a change in parent affection, meaning like,
And this is even for young children, ages like two to four, like where they ha the mother has another baby and isn't as affectionate with, you know, the first child because now the mother is consumed with this little little infant. Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (19:50.806)
I've been thinking about my th my three year old son versus my infant that's almost one right now. I'm like, my goodness. Anyway, yes.
Sam Jolman (19:58.668)
Yes. I mean like it could be that, it could be a divorce, it could be right. Is has something shifted the amount of affection this kid is getting. Right. And what they discovered is when affection was restored, for this is for young children, often masturbation stopped.
That amazing. Isn't that amazing?
Jake Kastleman (20:23.502)
It really is. It actually, The Body Keeps the Score. Dr. Vanderkolk, I'm sure you've you've probably read that book. Right. It's an amazing book. He he talks about, I think it was an inpatient facility for kids who'd been severely neglected or abused. Many of them had chronic masturbation habits. And they were young, young, young, young, like, you know, six, seven, eight years old, and they're masturbating. And that was actually a po powerful for me learning that because I was like, again.
This is not an inherently lustful or even a sexual thing like this is these kids are before sexual maturation. They're just trying to soothe their their nerves and what they're going through and the right the trauma they've experienced.
Sam Jolman (21:07.574)
Right. Right. Right. Right. So well said. Right. And and that sense of right, it's it's such a quick access to oxytocin, right? One of the things that's released in orgasm is oxytocin. It's the same chemical released when loved ones touch each other. When you get a hug from somebody who loves you, it's really strongly released in a mother when a mother and an infant are when a
In the infant and the mother when an infant is nursing as well. So I want you to hear, like, I would say for most of the men I walk with, their path into masturbation or a lust porn ritual, lust porn masturbation lit ritual is an anxious body that needs soothing. And I know for me, right?
masturbation became self-soothing. I used to suck my thumb when I was a kid. And then that, you know, my parents weaned me out of that. And I realized at some point in my own counseling work, I think masturbation took over where sucking my thumb thumb stopped. I still needed soothing. And and that became the new soothing.
no, again, is this everybody? No. you know, it can also be just a part of sexual exploration. It can be a, I'm curious about my body. And this feels good. so not everybody gets stuck in a pattern, right? Or it is an outlet for their curiosity.
And their arousal. but I would say, you know, you really need to ask questions around your own self-soothing as a kid. How did you soothe? What was given to you? what was not given to you? the other the other thing these researchers said, I'll just mention this as well. You know, a change in affection within the home from the parents or caregivers. The other thing was early sexualization through sexual abuse.
Sam Jolman (23:33.558)
So, which is just gutting. but there is evidence that if you experience childhood sexual abuse and you are sexualized, it it it's like your body wakes up early to sexuality. And I mean, as literal as and this I just got to me every time I think of this statistic.
The onset of puberty for for people who have been sexually abused is is a on average a year earlier. So girls who have been sexually abused tend to hit mencies and breast development a year earlier, according to one study. And they they also said this was true of boys. and I I didn't read w you know, how did they
Come to understand that, right? But they just said it translates to both sexes. So you know, you you know, to also say it's possible that you experienced a childhood sexual abuse and that sexually awakened you. And now your body, it's not that you are hormonally or relationally matured. It's just that something was energized. And now you're trying to find the sexual outlet for it through masturbation. So
makes sense.
Jake Kastleman (25:03.606)
And I and I think when it comes to relationship, you know, with our our kids, right, when they start discovering their bodies or touching themselves or masturbation, it's like like you're saying, you know, we're we're talking about our own relationship with sexuality as we did in the previous episode, you know, what does that look like? Well, like for me as a dad, I've done a lot of work on coming to peace with those inclinations and sexual desire and all that. And
I I really needed to work for years, needed to work for years on changing my relationship to masturbation. Like I talked about that history, and this is a bit open, but I'll just say it. I for a long time for years, I continued to masturbate, but would remove the fantasizing from it and would remove and would practice removing the shame and the fear from it and just allow it to just be a bodily experience.
And for me, that eventually translated to I'm okay to give this up now. I don't need it as a coping mechanism anymore. Uh-huh. Right. Yep. Because I I had done enough work with emotional mindfulness and regulation and building my life in ways with the meaning I experienced in relationships and decreasing my habits of technology use and easy dopamine hits, right? All these things that I had done where I finally got to a point where I said, you know.
For me, I could keep doing this and it's not something that loads me with shame like it once did, but I don't I don't need it. And I like I like the feeling that I have now of being able to hold that energy and contain that energy and direct it in my life. Right. And that's that I feel like is really powerful and really yeah, really really a a a beautiful experience when you can have that.
Sam Jolman (26:59.768)
Man, I love that journey. I love, you know, you finding a way, you know, to really take it out of the ritual, right, that it had become with lust and pornography and fantasy into just a relationship with your body to then saying, I don't have to do this. And I actually like the energy.
That's maintained by not, or finding other replacements. I love your use of of describing meaning as a form of soothing and comfort as well. and I I think that's, you know.
When you can bring your arousal out of the anxiety story into a story of love, right? Then it does change your relationship with masturbation. and I experienced that as well to say, I and in many ways it was learning how to talk, as you've said so well, to the younger parts of me.
So we don't need to do this. We have other forms of soothing now. Right. That that part that had learned to suck my thumb, then learned to masturbate, right? To say we we can mature in how we get soothing. that was a big key for me.
Jake Kastleman (28:32.344)
Yeah, I love that. And and and you speak in parts work language, right? IFS language you're using there. Mm-hmm. Or inner child work, you could refer to it. Right. But but that yeah, that actually IFS is where it started to be even become a possibility for me because I was able to recognize and appreciate these protector parts of me that would say, We're gonna get our fix through masturbation, right? That would bring up all the craving in me and I could work with.
Sam Jolman (28:40.95)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (29:02.37)
those parts of my mind and to no longer demonize or fight them, but to say, here's a part of me that's trying to help me. What's going on for me right now? And investigating what I'm actually needing or feeling under the surface. Yeah. Right.
Sam Jolman (29:20.055)
Yeah, so good.
Jake Kastleman (29:22.166)
That's a big change rather than just the the fighting and why do I you know, in my previous life it was I craved masturbation all day and into the night. And it was just always there and then realizing what that was really about, which was a host of other needs that I felt that were translating into that. Yeah. Right.
Sam Jolman (29:44.116)
I find if you're in a place where you only demonize masturbation and say, well, it's just wrong. And I, and you just get stuck in that guilt pattern. And again, I'm sharing my personal experience. My personal experience is it's very difficult to have the conversation with yourself about it, with your parts, right? To be able to say, like, if it's only, well, that was really bad, and I just need to stop.
I'd say it feels like you get stuck in this behavior modification, white knuckling loop. And rather than being able to think about what is my relationship, what is it function for me? d can I outgrow that? Am I in a place where I have more resources?
Jake Kastleman (30:31.946)
And and I would say, you know, for so many people, it's like, you know, take me back ten years ago, I didn't have the ability to do that. Yes. Right. And the more I was like, well, I should be able to overcome this, the the worse that became. And it just I had to go through a journey. We have to go through journeys to get there, especially for teens, right? Who are going through this. You know, if a parent is watching this, my kid is.
Doing this and I just don't know how to talk to them about it. I don't know what to do, or they're, they're, they're really becoming dependent on this. Maybe they realize they're doing it every day. And my gosh, your sexuality as a teen, this is the first time you've ever experienced this. And it is so powerful. Wars have been fought over these feelings.
Sam Jolman (31:23.0)
Right. So a lot to manage.
Jake Kastleman (31:24.898)
Yeah, it's a
It's not a simple kind of thing like just stop doing it. It is that simple.
Sam Jolman (31:32.194)
Right. Right. Yep. So funny and so true.
Jake Kastleman (31:38.19)
Yes. Well, I always think about, you know, like what would it be? I don't know, Greek mythology or medieval Right. It's like literally wars have been fought over these that that's with grown men. That's how powerful this is. How do you expect your teenager to have a perfect handle on this thing? Right.
Sam Jolman (31:43.714)
Helen of Troy or
Sam Jolman (31:56.716)
Right, and I would say again, as you've said so well, to make space for
their their own relationship to it if you make it bad. Cause I would say I've also known people to where masturbation was a part of their healing. And I know, and I'm not saying that's like that's the script, right? That's the prescription. Masturbate your way out of your problems, right? Like it's not gonna work. That's not so easy. Right. Saying it. But I I would say
At times being able to bless your capacity to soothe yourself. If you can't come to that blessing, it will be hard to have a different relationship here. I've also known couples to where, you know, there there is, as I mentioned in the article, there is sensei focused therapy, which is a part of learning how to slow down your nervous system related to your arousal.
If you've if you've always associated anxiety, right? Because some have said even things like premature ejaculation, right? That I'm so used to anxiety and masturbation and quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, so I don't get caught. Right. Or I'm really anxious and this is my soothing. You've now, you know, wired things together, anxiety and masturbation. So there are techniques, right, around sensate-focused.
Exploration of your body. I've known couples to where, you know, couples that have said, when we got married, we had no idea, because of our purity culture upbringing, that a woman could orgasm. And so I've known women that have described being able to explore my body through masturbation allowed me to know I could I could orgasm.
Jake Kastleman (33:58.166)
Right. That brings a whole whole different view, a whole different angle. Yeah.
Sam Jolman (34:04.598)
Yes. And again, I'm not saying well you have to do that to heal and though from those issues. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying context specific. Again, what's the context? What's the story behind what's happening here? really deeply matters.
Jake Kastleman (34:25.505)
Yes. So let's say that, you know, a parent whether well, I'll just speak in the younger kid years on on this, they they see their son or daughter touching themselves, right? And the immediately inclin immediate inclination is, we have to stop this. How should they not respond to that situation? And how should they respond?
Sam Jolman (34:50.774)
Yeah, again, I would say, you know, however you respond, you know, I'm I'm I'll just start by giving grace to all parents and say, you know, I am banking my whole parenting, as I heard John Eldritch say one time, on the verse, love covers over a multitude of sins. So however you respond, love can cover over that. but you know, ideally that you take a breath.
That you regulate your own body because that can be alarming. What what's going on here? You know, right? Has a sexuality and it's awakened, or they're being curious. Right? Like like they're that so just okay, take a breath. Take a breath. and and then you know.
To be able to bless, isn't it cool how God made your body?
It feels good to touch down there, doesn't it? Wow.
Jake Kastleman (35:57.686)
Yeah. Wow. That's a completely different response, a totally different way to go about it.
Sam Jolman (36:03.886)
Yes, to start by blessing design. That your kid didn't come up with this. God created their body, right? Again, back to those infants in Utero. Like they are in the womb, right? They're just exploring their body. So being able to bless, isn't it cool how God wired your body? Isn't it cool? Yes, God made your body for great pleasure. Sexuality is one of those things. one of my sons said to me once, like in it.
in the bath. So I was giving them bath as they're ringing. It tickles down here.
And I was like, that's a that sounds like a very kid way of explaining it feels good. It it's it's a different feeling. And just normalizing that and like, yeah, God gave you eight to ten thousand nerve endings down there, buddy. Right? so again, if what you're discovering is just you find them,
you know, I would say having a conversation around on on one level, I would, you know, if they're in the act, I would respect their privacy and have a conversation in a little bit because of the vulnerability of their the the privacy of their exploring their own body. So, you know, then I would bring it up with them.
And and talk about like just
Sam Jolman (37:43.406)
You're you're finding out the story of it for them.
Right. Is and letting them narrate to you like, you know, I I think a parent's worst fear, of course, would be my child has been sexualized. And they're acting it out. And I would say, it's good to hold that curiosity, but go slow. You can find that out over time. and then conversations primarily on self-soothing.
What's going on for them? you know, I had a a client and he's given me permission to share this. I share this story in the book, or in the article, sorry. You know, he said, he described how, you know, the way he coped with his anxiety, and the way he was able to soothe himself from all the stress of junior high was he would masturbate when he came home from school.
And he discovered it by accident. He was trying to soothe himself to sleep one night. And he was rubbing his sheets and he discovered masturbation that way. and he didn't know what it was called, but he eventually did. And, you know, he had his father come to his door once, and his father made mention of, you know.
You can't keep masturbat masturbating because we can't keep washing all these sheets.
Jake Kastleman (39:23.19)
That's right. I remember reading this, yeah.
Sam Jolman (39:26.348)
And it was a wounding moment for him because he didn't know his parents knew. And that was the end of the conversation. and again, you know so sad. So sad.
He needed conversations, not just about masturbation, but about his anxiety, about what he was going through, what what was he trying to self-soothe, right?
Jake Kastleman (39:54.412)
I think the trouble is there's so many men who don't know that that's the case, right? They their own relationship to masturbation, they've never even made those discoveries themselves. Yeah. Which is another reason this conversation is very important for them to be able to see that in themselves too and and build a different relationship to it.
Sam Jolman (40:12.302)
Well said. Right. Right. In other words, we it'd be easy to villainize that father. And yet we don't know that father's relationship to his own body, his own masturbation. Right. And you know, there's a high likelihood that he was told it's dirty. Yeah. Right. And he has his own shame that he's acting out of.
Jake Kastleman (40:33.56)
So let's say that father wants to have a healthy conversation and you probably had something else you were saying and I apologize, but let's say he wanted to, or was it even in a place to have a healthy conversation with his son about masturbation? Or in any hypothetical scenario, like what is that conversation kind of look like with a teenager? Right.
Sam Jolman (40:57.516)
Yeah, I think you know
Jake Kastleman (40:59.608)
And we're and we're and we're talking about it. I think we're talking all around it. But maybe there's
Sam Jolman (41:05.088)
A direct way in? Yeah. You know, I think, well, quite frankly, you know, being able to tell your sons about wet dreams. Right. In other words, that you might find that you you have a wet dream, and explain what that is, right? Nocturnal emissions. I would say being able to in other words, you're you won't just orgasm during sex.
Right. It's you might have a dream or a sexual dream, or just so you know you're not scared when you wake up. And what yeah, right? Did I wet the bed? What's going on? Right. to give them a context for that, I think is helpful just in honor of them. Along with that, then I would say, you know, describing it is normal for your body to feel pleasure. It is normal to be curious about how you're.
Jake Kastleman (41:44.726)
Right. Like what happened to me?
Sam Jolman (42:03.734)
your plumbing works. It is normal to to you might find yourself exploring and having an orgasm. Right. And in other words, this wouldn't be your first conversation on sex. Hopefully you've talked about sex and what is an orgasm and what's an erection and how this works and how it partnered sex, right, with your your marriage partner. Right. It feels good and it's not just to make babies. It's also for love and affection and
It's meant to feel like joy and play and you're you've narrated a lot of that. Then I would say it's normal that you've, you know, to be curious about how your plumbing works. And then to invite your son to think about the context, right? To how to separate out lust from masturbation. Right. That like you might find a draw to want to look at sexual material. And
Trying to separate out that and to help them start to be aware of what you wire with your sexuality. Now you could be heavy-handed on that, like you're gonna injure yourself. That would be bad. Right? In other words, your tone matters as much as what you say. But to help them understand, like,
You know, but if you find yourself struggling with this, like this isn't meant to be how we soothe our anxiety, right? It's a powerful thing God made for us. But if you find yourself struggling, you know, even to name, like some guys get stuck using this as their way of soothing. God want, you know, God created other ways for us to soothe ourselves.
Jake Kastleman (43:52.142)
Right. And you may be inclined to do it sometimes and and you may do it, right? It may happen. Yes. And so it's all just practice and training of getting to know yourself and your emotions and other ways to soothe and other ways to regulate and other ways to find meaning in your life, right? Things for you to pursue. So sexual energy libido is the the energy of of creation and pursuit is the way that I refer to it. Right. And I said
Sam Jolman (44:19.063)
So
Jake Kastleman (44:20.256)
If if someone could have told me that as a teenager, maybe it wouldn't have made a difference. Maybe it would be like, what? That doesn't make any sense. But I feel like we should all kind of be taught that. That it's this more general drive rather than just, you want you want an orgasm. Right. Because it's it's so much deeper than that.
Sam Jolman (44:40.802)
Mm-hmm.
Jake Kastleman (44:44.942)
Powerful stuff, Sam. Again, there's so much more we could talk about here. but we will conclude here. I really appreciate your time, man. I will stick in the show notes connections to your Substack, for people to read your writings. So awesome. Great things you put there, put on there and to your book and all that good stuff. So yeah. Anything else you want to say before we conclude?
Sam Jolman (45:06.488)
Jake, this has been such an honor. I love that you're going after these topics. you're inviting us all into the sex talk. And this is redemptive for me to talk with you as much as we're giving anything to the audience. I've just enjoyed getting to talk with you and explore these topics. So thank you for having me.
Jake Kastleman (45:28.694)
thanks, Sam. You're such a joy to talk to, man. So thanks for coming on. Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners. So thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach.
So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. And if you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Corn, or my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome corn addiction. And you can find them at Nomordesire.com.
As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.
Jake Kastleman (46:49.846)
Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,
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